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  1. #361
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    In just a few paragraphs you've managed to tell better and more realistic story that entire Blizzard combined.

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    Except those are joining peaceful faction that won't go Horde-hunting every day and Nightborne are joining "WAR in WARcraft, rawrrwrwrwrwrwrwrw!" fanatical racists.
    If you were an Alliance ambassador I'd join the Horde too.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    You could argue that she was working against POTENTIAL allies, but the Titan Watchers have always been a neutral to neutral-evil faction that doesn't get involved in mortal wars. Case in point, even after being freed from the Halls of Valor Odyn's whole contribution to everything was to pop over to Helya's corpse and gloat.

    He doesn't appear on the Vindicaar or hang out on Argus, the Valajar aren't being dispatched to the Tomb of Sargeras and he certainly didn't punch Argus the Unmaker at the end of Antorus. He allows one of his Valajar (The Player Character) to do their Warlordy business with the Halls of Valor as a base of operations, but that's about it.

    The real Contribution of Odyn was the Aegis of Aggramar. And he handed that over because we beat the challenges to get it and would've given it to the Felskorn if we'd been just a -little- bit slower in the doing of it.
    Have you played as a warrior or paid any attention to their story? The Battlelord is the 2nd in command of the Valarjar under Odyn, he leads Odyn's entire army (This includes all the living vrykul loyal to him, the Stormforged Valajar, the Val'kyr, the Thorignir dragons and after the initial warrior campaign, the combined armies of Ulduar as well)

    Just like every other class hall, the Valarjar and Odyn's forces were there assaulting the tomb of sargeras, they were there fighting on the broken shore, they are there fighting on Argus, just like the other class factions. Just because Odyn himself inst physical leading the charge doesnt mean he and his Valarjar didnt do anything, they did just as much as any other class order hall, under command of the Battlelord.

    So yes Sylvanas was fighting/working against a direct ally, as her aggression towards the Val'kyr/Eyir would be literally her making an enemy of the entire Warrior order hall
    Last edited by Throren; 2017-12-01 at 08:51 PM.

  3. #363
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    If you were an Alliance ambassador I'd join the Horde too.
    Burrrrrrrrnnnn...

    Also the Alliance has a leader who literally hunted Sylvanas down within the storyline. Like, his own dialogue was basically him talking about how he always tracks down his prey. So... Y'know.

    The "We don't go Horde-Hunting" line is just -patently- false. Every day, sure. Also the Racists are all on the Alliance, too. Aside from Garrosh and Putress, but you've seen how the Horde deals with Racists. The Alliance just gives them an Airship and a shitload of soldiers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Throren View Post
    Have you played as a warrior or paid any attention to their story? The Battlelord is the 2nd in command of the Valarjar under Odyn, he leads Odyn's entire army (This includes all the living vrykul loyal to him, the Stormforged Valajar, the Val'kyr, the Thorignir and after the intitial warrior campaign, the combined armies of Ulduar as well)

    Just like every other class hall, the Valarjar and Odyn's forces were there assaulting the tomb of sargeras, they were there fighting on the broken shore, they are there fighting on Argus, just like the other class factions. Just because Odyn himself inst leading the charge doesnt mean he and his Valarjar didnt do anything, they did just as much as any other class order hall
    Huh... I actually didn't play the Warrior story and was getting it second-hand. I thought the recruits the Warrior grabbed (The order hall minions, not the champions) were trained warriors of Azeroth rather than Dead Warriors raised by the Val'kyr.
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  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Burrrrrrrrnnnn...

    Also the Alliance has a leader who literally hunted Sylvanas down within the storyline. Like, his own dialogue was basically him talking about how he always tracks down his prey. So... Y'know.

    The "We don't go Horde-Hunting" line is just -patently- false. Every day, sure. Also the Racists are all on the Alliance, too. Aside from Garrosh and Putress, but you've seen how the Horde deals with Racists. The Alliance just gives them an Airship and a shitload of soldiers.

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    Huh... I actually didn't play the Warrior story and was getting it second-hand. I thought the recruits the Warrior grabbed (The order hall minions, not the champions) were trained warriors of Azeroth rather than Dead Warriors raised by the Val'kyr.
    I wouldn't say that Putress was even racist. He hated the living. That's more... life-ist. Idk.
    Hey

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by monopoly man View Post
    I hope not, that'd be super bad writing for any adult characters...

    I still think it is weird to have the entire Nightborne faction join the Horde after all the help they've received from the Alliance as well as the Horde. I mean if the Highborne could be accepted back into nightelven society, why couldn't the Nightborne? I think a pandaren-style split of the faction would have been most logical, with some Nightborne trying to mend their ruined society, some buddying up with the blood elves and some with the night elves/Highborne. But as usual, gameplay stands in the way of lore, for Blizz has stated they didn't like the pandaren experiment, so the Horde got the Nightborne (no use for two near-identical elves on the Alliance). At any rate, I'll be sure to show Thalyssra how I feel about her total disregard for my aid when I come across her in Orgrimmar
    Not to derail the actual topic, but after reading your comment I was curious about what you said about Blizzard not liking the Pandaren experiment. What did they say exactly, I assumed the idea worked for the most part, though some of the previous comments I agree with pertaining to why they should not have stuck around after Garosh did what he did, but have to admit that I didn't even think about them till just now after they were brought up.

    Personally I would have been happy with the Nightborne being a neutral split faction. Highmountain and Zandalar make sense, though I have a very small issue with Highmountain since I, as an Alliance main, helped them out, though they did hook me up with the hammer. As well as Dark Iron and Light Dreanei making sense... Void Elves I'm still on the fence about. I guess I just liked the Nightborne lore/story so much that I really would have liked to be able to make a character of that race that sided with the Alliance. /shrug

  6. #366
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obbsy View Post
    I wouldn't say that Putress was even racist. He hated the living. That's more... life-ist. Idk.
    The terminology is definitely questionable, ultimately it's the core of bigotry that remains steadfast and stalwart.
    When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like injustice.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by sillag View Post
    nah i dont think thalyssra is going to start the war up. they just put that line in there for horde pride. look shes one of us now shes ready to start killing the alliance thats all it takes. i know blizzard enough that they wont have thought about whether her doing that would start a war.

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    however i have underestimated how bad blizzard writing can get before and the idea of the biggest alliance vs horde war ever starting because a leader was kind of abrasive while helping another leader save her people and home from becoming slaves to demons is so stupid that it might just happen
    This datamining stuff you're talking about is being completely taken out of context so now you are all overthinking this and head cannoning stuff that's just not even there.


    Read all of the Datamining HERE if you want some actual context and not just rampant speculation based on people who actually take their in-game faction of choice allegiance extremely seriously.

    It's revealed exactly why Thalyssra joins the Alliance in here and it's not some random out of nowhere thing where she just decides to join the Horde and she's evil now type of thing, and Tyrande isn't even directly involved but is definitely NOT on the right side in attacking Suramar after what happens.

    HUGE SPOILERS that happen AFTER the tiny bit of conversation between Liadrin and Thalyssra y'all are talking about and obviously make sense if you weren't living in a cave:

    TL;DR Alleria and Thalyssra visit Silvermoon, it is not explicitly stated but pretty clear that it is here that she in some part creates her army of Void Elves as the Sunwell get's corrupted by her, but GET THIS because Thalyssra is such tight pals with Liadrin she is able to cleanse the Sunwell it. So that's why she's 100% Horde in BFA.

    Liadrin, First Arcanist Thalyssra, Lor'themar, Alleria Windrunner: Visiting the Sunwell in Silvermoon

    Lor'themar Theron: Lady Liadrin... champion. You are most welcome. As you can see, we have an... unexpected visitor.
    Alleria Windrunner: Hello again, Liadrin. Champion. Lor'themar, I am here concerning a matter that might be best addressed in private.
    Lor'themar Theron: I see no need to keep secrets from allies, Alleria. In fact, some new friends of ours are just arriving.
    Lady Liadrin: First Arcanist Thalyssra and honored guests. Welcome to Silvermoon.
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: It is a pleasure to visit your fine city at last. Thank you for extending the invitation, Regent Lord.
    Lor'themar Theron: Please, call me Lor'themar. But where are my manners? Allow me to introduce another guest: Lady Alleria Windrunner, a hero of Silvermoon's past.
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: An unexpected honor, Lady Windrunner. Silgryn told me of your courage during the campaign on Argus.
    Alleria Windrunner: The honor is mine, First Arcanist. I do not mean to intrude upon your visit. Perhaps I should return another time.
    Lor'themar Theron: Nonsense. Whatever you came to say, you may say in front of our guests.
    Alleria Windrunner: As you wish. I come bearing an offer from High King Anduin Wr--
    Lor'themar Theron: I had hoped your visit was motivated by a love for Silvermoon. Instead, you come at the behest of the Alliance's boy-king. How disappointing.
    Alleria Windrunner: Cutting words, Lor'themar. Are they yours, I wonder, or has the dutiful ranger I knew become the mouthpiece of your warchief?
    Lor'themar Theron: You doubt my words, yet how can we trust your own? Do you deny that the lords of the Void whisper to you? Did you not surrender yourself to the shadows on Argus?
    Alleria Windrunner: I seems the offer I bring has been anticipated... and spurned. Very well. But before I leave, I have one request.
    Alleria Windrunner: It has been a thousand years since I set eyes upon the Sunwell. May I visit it once again?
    Grand Magister Rommath: I advise against it. We cannot trust that she will not--
    Lor'themar Theron: Whatever she has become, Alleria is a daughter of Quel'Thalas. I will not deny her pilgrimage to our most sacred site. First Arcanist, you and your retinue would be welcome to join us.
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: I would consider it an honor to see the Sunwell, Lor'themar. And I prefer that my friends call me Thalyssra.
    Lor'themar Theron: Rommath, kindly open the way for us.
    Lor'themar Theron: Please follow me.
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: The sense of power is palpable. As potent as the Nightwell, but of a different nature.
    Lady Liadrin: The Sunwell was corrupted by our enemies, but a naaru's sacrifice purified its waters. Now the essence of the Light sustains us.
    Alleria Windrunner: The Sunwell has changed... but its beauty remains. It has been so long.
    Lor'themar Theron: Stay back!
    Lor'themar Theron: What is happening?
    Lor'themar Theron: This is why I demanded that Umbric and his radicals be exiled. Anyone who treats with the Void is a danger to the Sunwell!
    Alleria Windrunner: I did not intend for my presence to...
    Lor'themar Theron: Enough! We need to cleanse this corruption before the well is lost!
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: Silgryn! Valtrois! Aid the regent lord!


    It certainly didn't help that Tyrande was not friendly to them at any point, but that's not the main reason they take sides at all in any way shape or form.

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=277419/d...7-3-5-spoilers
    Last edited by Shakou; 2017-12-01 at 09:28 PM.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Burrrrrrrrnnnn...

    Also the Alliance has a leader who literally hunted Sylvanas down within the storyline. Like, his own dialogue was basically him talking about how he always tracks down his prey. So... Y'know.

    The "We don't go Horde-Hunting" line is just -patently- false. Every day, sure. Also the Racists are all on the Alliance, too. Aside from Garrosh and Putress, but you've seen how the Horde deals with Racists.
    The Horde dealt with Garrosh's actions in Wrath by making him warchief of the entire Horde, kiddo.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    By joining the Horde she shows that Tyrande's distrust and disdain for the Nightborn was justified. That they're on the wrong side of the war and specifically positioning themselves to be opposed to the Night Elves "After all I've done for you?!" would be enough of a slap in the face for her to attack them within lore, giving the Alliance a third Leader who would be happy to fight the Horde.

    But apparently Thalyssra is going to be the one starting the conflict, according to the datamined text. Any attempt at establishing her character through Legion is, effectively out the window and I'm super fucking annoyed about the whole mess.

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    It looks like Thalyssra might be starting it as her first act as a member of the Horde. Unless "Testing her Skills in Ashenvale" means something more defensive against Nelfy incursions, there, but I sincerely doubt it.
    I Like this post. Also annoyed that they butchered her character she was spinning in Legion.

    And we know whats shes doing in Ashenvale! Cutting down some log!!

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    About what I expected, no actual reason at all. Just "the Alliance are kinda cold so we're going to join a faction we know nothing about."
    So what. They don't know anything about the Alliance either.

    So it's a decision between the condescending pricks or the friendly guys and you're confused why they're picking the friendly guys.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    So what. They don't know anything about the Alliance either.

    So it's a decision between the condescending pricks or the friendly guys and you're confused why they're picking the friendly guys.
    Or, you know, not randomly deciding to join one of two factions teetering on the edge of war, and instead focusing on rebuilding their society.

  12. #372
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
    This datamining stuff you're talking about is being completely taken out of context so now tou are all overthinking this and head cannoning stuff that's just not even there.

    It is already an established fact that the war is not started because of the Nightborne at all. That's established by the simple fact that you don't even quest to bring them into the Horde *after* the war has already started.

    Read all of the Datamining HERE if you want some actual context and not just rampant speculation based on people who actually take their in-game faction of choice allegiance extremely seriously.

    It's revealed exactly why Thalyssra joins the Alliance in here and it's not some random out of nowhere thing where she just decides to join the Horde and she's evil now type of thing, and Tyrande isn't even directly involved but is definitely NOT on the right side in attacking Suramar after what happens.

    HUGE SPOILERS that obviously make sense if you weren't living in a cave:

    TL;DR Alleria visits the Silvermoon, creates her army of Void Elves and the Sunwell get's corrupted in the process and GET THIS Thalyssra is brought in cuz she's tight pals with Liadrin and she cleanses it. So that's why she's 100% Horde in BFA.

    It certainly didn't help that Tyrande was not friendly to them at any point, but that's not the main reason they take sides at all in any way shape or form.

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=277419/d...7-3-5-spoilers
    Read Moar. Thalyssra greets Liadrin in Suramar under "More pleasant circumstances" because they're talking about Thalyssra and the Nightborn joining the Horde. THEN Liadrin takes Thalyssra to Silvermoon to meet Lorthemar and get the official invitation. WHILE she's there, the Sunwell gets Voidy off Alleria's presence and she helps calm it.

    But even before that point, she's lamenting how she's not going to join the Alliance. How she had initially expected to join them, but their cloistered nature and Tyrande's rudeness turned her off.

    Thal had decided to join before she witnessed the events at the Sunwell, Shakou. And then right after is all "Welp. I'mma go to Ashenvale and fight!"
    When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like injustice.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Or, you know, not randomly deciding to join one of two factions teetering on the edge of war, and instead focusing on rebuilding their society.
    show me how you would "rebuild" your society when all world around you in the state of war, and on your own "isle" happening some old god sh*t (again read tauren questline), and without help from other factions (resources, protection, builders, cultivators for arcandor etc. etc.)? I want to see this utopia.
    Last edited by Zorish; 2017-12-01 at 09:19 PM.

  14. #374
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    The only "Positive" angle I could see out of Thalyssra heading to Ashenvale to "Test out her skills" is trying to create a new Nightborn settlement at a Leyline Crossing or something, then creating a defensive barrier against Nelf attacks. Then Tyrande can be righteously angry and attack her, triggering the retaliatory strike all the way up to the burning of Teldrassil with the attack being the justification Sylvanas needs to convince the other Horde Leaders to take down Tyrande.

    But it's -VASTLY- more likely that the Devs are throwing away Thalyssra's characterization in favor of "LuLz! I am Horde, Nao! MUST ATTACK ALLIANCE!"
    When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like injustice.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorish View Post
    show me how you would "rebuild" your society when all world around you in the state of war? I want to see this utopia.
    I mean, do you think Stormwind and Orgrimmar are down the street from Suramar? They live on an isolated island with no Alliance or Horde settlements beyond small encampments on the other side of the island. There's very little if any reason for the Alliance and Horde to move on the Broken Isles, and zero reason for them to do anything in Suramar.

    So rather than joining a faction, and now making Suramar a huge military target as a potential port to take from the enemy, they focus on supporting the Arcan'dor, curing the rest of their people, retaking and rebuilding the other ruins, laying down new laws and ruling structures, etc.

  16. #376
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Honestly, this confuses the shit out of me.

    I thought there would be a further reason for the Shal'dorei to join the Horde. But the events of Legion are the totality of it? That's lame.

    Like... I get Thalyssra's reasoning, here. I just think it's weak.
    Can't be any weaker than the explanation of Void Elves

  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ookami.kun View Post
    Not to derail the actual topic, but after reading your comment I was curious about what you said about Blizzard not liking the Pandaren experiment. What did they say exactly, I assumed the idea worked for the most part, though some of the previous comments I agree with pertaining to why they should not have stuck around after Garosh did what he did, but have to admit that I didn't even think about them till just now after they were brought up.

    Personally I would have been happy with the Nightborne being a neutral split faction. Highmountain and Zandalar make sense, though I have a very small issue with Highmountain since I, as an Alliance main, helped them out, though they did hook me up with the hammer. As well as Dark Iron and Light Dreanei making sense... Void Elves I'm still on the fence about. I guess I just liked the Nightborne lore/story so much that I really would have liked to be able to make a character of that race that sided with the Alliance. /shrug
    I'm afraid I can't find the tweet in which Blizzard mentioned not being happy with the way pandaren were handled. It was quite a while ago though, so their stance might have changed. It basically boiled down to Blizzard not liking the pandaren being neutral because they couldn't give them proper development as a race due to them being on both factions or something.

    I find it weird the Nightborne and Highmountain tauren are wholly joining the Horde, but oh well, you can blame gameplay for that. Why they would kill the guy who saved them from destruction, I dunno. I really like Ebonhorn, I'm sad he's joined the Horde. Void elves follow Alleria and she's part of the Alliance, so I can see why they're joining Stormwind. Having a Nightborne elf on the Alliance would have been very cool, I love the customisation options I've seen of them

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    The Night Elves(current) were also addicted, 10.000 years ago. So surely they all share the same history. Right?
    The difference being that the Night Elves, for millennia, shunned all forms of arcane magic, and even exiled their own for practicing it, if I remember correctly. It's slightly different now--they obviously have and allow mages--but my understanding of it is that this is with restrictions, or is not praised. The Night Elves also lead a very basic, utilitarian, "natural" lifestyle, whereas the Nightborne are a decadent, hedonistic culture that warps and twists nature to their will. The Night Elves work with nature, and their homes and cities are extensions of the world, not subjugations of it. In all of these ways, they have far more in common with Blood Elves than Night Elves. Blood Elves also share the whole addiction thing much more viscerally, recently, and in almost the same trajectory. Their addiction to magic led them to a state similar (but not the same as) the Nightfallen and the Withered: the Wretched. They also share more recently a source of corrupted power that was once lost: their different wells. The biggest difference between Nightborne and Blood Elves is that Blood Elves are a much more spiritual race now, whereas the Nightborne are rather secular and more academic/scientific.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I mean, do you think Stormwind and Orgrimmar are down the street from Suramar? They live on an isolated island with no Alliance or Horde settlements beyond small encampments on the other side of the island. There's very little if any reason for the Alliance and Horde to move on the Broken Isles, and zero reason for them to do anything in Suramar.

    So rather than joining a faction, and now making Suramar a huge military target as a potential port to take from the enemy, they focus on supporting the Arcan'dor, curing the rest of their people, retaking and rebuilding the other ruins, laying down new laws and ruling structures, etc.
    while being torn apart by 2 fighting factions. Not on the street? man THEY! ARE! IN! THE! MIDDLE! they are best strategic point for launching assault! it's like natural base for defending your continent and making attacks on other! (and afted adding zandalar it will be just line wich willl be VEEEERY hard to cross for Aliance forces without being seen.). i can make you example of this from RL, but i don't want to bring RL politics to this topic this much. Already done enough.

  20. #380
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excellion View Post
    Can't be any weaker than the explanation of Void Elves
    You -might- have a point. But the Void Elves didn't discard a character's entire characterization in favor of "Grrr! I am Horde!"

    In fact with Ily'gynoth's musings about the shadows masked by the blazing surface, the Void Elves are probably a little deeper than we originally gave them credit for!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorish View Post
    while being torn apart by 2 fighting factions. Not on the street? man THEY! ARE! IN! THE! MIDDLE! they are best strategic point for launching assault! it's like natural base for defending your continent and making attacks on other! (and afted adding zandalar it will be just line wich willl be VEEEERY hard to cross for Aliance forces without being seen.). i can make you example of this from RL, but i don't want to bring RL politics to this topic this much. Already done enough.
    Also the Highmountain, their literal next door neighbors, are joining the Horde 'cause of course those Antlered Cowfolk are.

    That'd make a -great- staging point for a Horde Invasion Force on Suramar. Even moreso if they'd joined the Alliance.
    When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like injustice.

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