What are the chances that the Horde win this war?

[Shakou]

The point stands. Alliance DID win at the end of MOP. You cannot deny that. It's canon.

Ummm, no it's not. The Horde rebelled against their own Warchief and fought alongside the Alliance to bring him down. That is cannon.

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We talking about lore or Gameplay wise?

Of course Gameplay wise you can never truly conquer your opposing faction no matter how many times you kill the Alliance king and the others.

But i thought we was talking lorewise here cause lorewise there is a cannon that blizz sticks too.

Lorewise the point of the war between the Alliance and the Horde is that it serves as the backdrop of the rest of the story which we don't know all about yet. Only that Old God stuff, Queen Azshara etc is definitely part of it.

[Minikin]

Really good point, I'm amazed at how people here did not immediately make the link that the resurrected war between Alliance and Horde signifies Old God related things to come.

But Sylvannas! Obviously evil! Obviously the big bad and her sister isn't totally introducing the Alliance to the source of Old God power.

But to be honest, I think they most likely won't even go the same route with a faction leader being fully corrupted. I know Blizzard writes "dumb things" but I also realize they are self aware, and they write some really smart things too that fans don't even contemplate because a lot of the fan base just complains if they don't get what they want.

My prediction? They will absolutely put out red herrings indicating that Sylvannas and Jaina Proudmore have been corrupted by Old Gods, and it might even come close for one of them, but it will never ultimately happen, the war will be squashed by the inevitable rise of N'zoth/Return of the Black Empire at end game. Factions will have to work together to save Azeroth herself, as in she either is brought forth as an actual Titan or will be corrupted. I totally wouldn't be totally shocked if Azeroth is actually properly introduced as an actual Titan at the end so the expansion title has a double entrada.

As far as Sylvannas goes, I think she will probably have some kind of redemption arch, surely bringing Alleria back into the fold indicates there's a chance of actually developing Sylvannas as a character instead of her being always evil angsty bitch queen. And her actions in the cinematic indicate her coming into her own as a true leader of the Horde.

Ive been trying to read up on the chronicles and such to figure out what theyll do with sylvannas, since really even though i play alliance it would suck for the horde to lose yet another warchief. Also they have done the whole warchief raid boss thing.

So far the theory i have is a bit unformed and each have solid points but also equally solid snags.

i believe that she herself will become a valkyra. Not one in Odins service but not some general valkyr that transports people. For example, Helya initially was a transported after being forced turned by Odyn. But she is no general valkyra. Same with Eyir, she is not just a simple transporter. Secondly, there are only two people so far who had commanding power over valkyr, Arthas and Odyn.
snag: Finding info on how arthas came upon his valkyrs. Did he make them? Or did they join him? (The valkyr that follow sylvannas dont count as commanded by her, because they are with her more on their choice, decided in the sylvannas short story, rather than made to serve).

She doesnt really fear death but the oblivion that lies beyond for her, given that her being an unnatural thing, the light doesnt really follow her.
snag: perhaps in wow there is no paradise and hell as afterlife just more like a nothingness and she hates that? but i find it hard to believe that ppl like varian would end up at the same place as arthas did.

I think this gives her the save she needs from that oblivion while at the same time able to help her people.
snag: they have so far only INFERRED sylvannas cares for her people (this is where people who are biased totally loose it). But the thing is, no one can for a second say, Varian did not care for his people, or Thrall didnt care for his people, or Theron didnt care for his people or Malfurion for his people. But she is in question because she has in the past just used them. They have yet to show her as that leader. And honestly this is where it ends. If they do not show this part, regardless of the two points above, then sylvannas wont last. Because the forsaken need something. Unlike trolls, who due to their proximity with ogrimmar and being a natural race, the undead cant go without a leader who doesnt care about them. And i feel they are going this way too, given her datamined dialogues about how the forsaken will win and the horde will win and shell find a solution to the "plight of the forsaken" come hell or high water.

[Shakou]

Ive been trying to read up on the chronicles and such to figure out what theyll do with sylvannas, since really even though i play alliance it would suck for the horde to lose yet another warchief. Also they have done the whole warchief raid boss thing.

So far the theory i have is a bit unformed and each have solid points but also equally solid snags.

i believe that she herself will become a valkyra. Not one in Odins service but not some general valkyr that transports people. For example, Helya initially was a transported after being forced turned by Odyn. But she is no general valkyra. Same with Eyir, she is not just a simple transporter. Secondly, there are only two people so far who had commanding power over valkyr, Arthas and Odyn.
snag: Finding info on how arthas came upon his valkyrs. Did he make them? Or did they join him? (The valkyr that follow sylvannas dont count as commanded by her, because they are with her more on their choice, decided in the sylvannas short story, rather than made to serve).

She doesnt really fear death but the oblivion that lies beyond for her, given that her being an unnatural thing, the light doesnt really follow her.
snag: perhaps in wow there is no paradise and hell as afterlife just more like a nothingness and she hates that? but i find it hard to believe that ppl like varian would end up at the same place as arthas did.

I think this gives her the save she needs from that oblivion while at the same time able to help her people.
snag: they have so far only INFERRED sylvannas cares for her people (this is where people who are biased totally loose it). But the thing is, no one can for a second say, Varian did not care for his people, or Thrall didnt care for his people, or Theron didnt care for his people or Malfurion for his people. But she is in question because she has in the past just used them. They have yet to show her as that leader. And honestly this is where it ends. If they do not show this part, regardless of the two points above, then sylvannas wont last. Because the forsaken need something. Unlike trolls, who due to their proximity with ogrimmar and being a natural race, the undead cant go without a leader who doesnt care about them. And i feel they are going this way too, given her datamined dialogues about how the forsaken will win and the horde will win and shell find a solution to the "plight of the forsaken" come hell or high water.

I actually had not given a lot of thought to what a Sylvannas redemption arch would be like but this sounds really great and I would be totally down with that and interested in exploring the potential of that happening. Makes a whole lot of sense, whereas her being evil bitch Queen and that's it does not that's boring and well just when you think Blizz is going to take the easy way out they don't. She has to do something or the forsaken aren't going to be around anymore.

That being said, I don't know about her being a Val'kyr as I think you have to be a female Vrykul, but her becoming something like that is totally in the realm of possibility. I mean all of the Val'Kyr in service to Odyn or not are Undead.

[Steampunkette]

Sylvan as as Val'kyr -would- be an awesome turn of events. She'd be able to grow and maybe "cure" the Forsaken, giving them less rot or whatever, that way. Plus if she died she'd just respawn in HoV.

[huth]

The Vindicaar will probably be placed in permanent patrol around Argus, to ensure that no whackjob cultist or stray demon attempts to free Sargerous. I can see Velen also moving to Argus permanently to work on purging it of Fel over time.

Calling in an orbital strike from the Vindicaar is one of the Lightforged's racials.

Though to be honest it's kinda silly mages never seem to think of creating space stations in most fantasy worlds, even when doing so would be fairly trivial.

[Steampunkette]

I mean, it's one thing to say that Bolvar will eventually fall, and another to say that Sylvanas would be better.

Sylvanas... You know, the person Arthas murdered and enslaved back when he was just a Death Knight and not the Lich King. She's the one who's supposed to resist this irresistible evil when the 'uncorruptable' Bolvar couldn't? And Bolvar was basically the noblest soul ever prior to putting on the Helm of Domination while Sylvanas has already shown herself on numerous occasions to be someone who cares little for morality and will do evil to increase her own power. If Blizz goes that route, it will basically be admitting that they're gonna let Sylvanas do anything regardless of logic just because she's popular.

I also think that, even with the shady shit he's been doing in Legion, Bolvar is still a more ambiguous character than Sylvanas. At least with Bolvar, there is the possibility that he truly believes he is acting in Azeroth's best interests or his judgement is being influenced by Ner'zhul. It's suspect, but it is there. With Sylvanas, we've been inside her head, we've read her thoughts, we know how she views the world and the people around her. She is not a selfless person at all.

It's mostly just meta knowledge that leads people to believe Bolvar is going to go off the rails (i.e., Blizz needs raid bosses and he'd be a good one).

Sylvanas is absolutely an evil person. She tortures and kills, performs medical experiments on people, and more. But you could argue that she's more -aware- of what she's willing to do than Bolvar. More aware of where the lines are because she knows she crosses them.

Good gets corrupted by insidious inches. Evil recognizes corruption and addresses it.

That said, the Devs would probably just go "Plot Armor!" and make her awesome because fanservice. Though now I'm really digging on the idea of Sylvanas taking up the helmet, sicking the Scourge on each other, consolidating the helmet's power, and making herself into a super-val'kyr by absorbing it's power through some necromantic ritual to wipe out the Scourge Threat while simultaneously "Curing" herself and giving her the ability to raise the dead as Forsaken or maybe even "Cure" the forsaken in some way to make them not go rotbrained or allow them to feel more positive emotions and such. Plus she'd be able to make more Val'kyr because reasons.

If it happened at the end of a Redemption arc it would be a great "Reward" for her being a better person. And if it happened at the end of a Return of the Lich King expansion they could introduce some different forsaken models for "Allied Races" like Nathanos or Dark Rangers or even just the Chinese Models and an Upright Stance option.

[Florena]

Really good point, I'm amazed at how people here did not immediately make the link that the resurrected war between Alliance and Horde signifies Old God related things to come.

But Sylvannas! Obviously evil! Obviously the big bad and her sister isn't totally introducing the Alliance to the source of Old God power.

But to be honest, I think they most likely won't even go the same route with a faction leader being fully corrupted. I know Blizzard writes "dumb things" but I also realize they are self aware, and they write some really smart things too that fans don't even contemplate because a lot of the fan base just complains if they don't get what they want.

My prediction? They will absolutely put out red herrings indicating that Sylvannas and Jaina Proudmore have been corrupted by Old Gods, and it might even come close for one of them, but it will never ultimately happen, the war will be squashed by the inevitable rise of N'zoth/Return of the Black Empire at end game. Factions will have to work together to save Azeroth herself, as in she either is brought forth as an actual Titan or will be corrupted. I totally wouldn't be totally shocked if Azeroth is actually properly introduced as an actual Titan at the end, it would actually give the expansion title deeper meaning and it's fitting seeing as how you're given the "Heart of Azeroth" and you're literally battling to save her in this expansion.

As far as Sylvannas goes, I think she will probably have some kind of redemption arch, surely bringing Alleria back into the fold indicates there's a chance of actually developing Sylvannas as a character instead of her being always evil angsty bitch queen. And her actions in the cinematic indicate her coming into her own as a true leader of the Horde.

We had factions of 'fight fire with fire' for the lich king and legion, why not learn to use the void against itself too? Sure some will probably be corrupted but it's not like none of the illidari fell to legion corruption either.

[Megas Elekmatos]

That wasn't really directed at you, there's a few overzealous like probably have an Alliance tattoo types in here tho lol

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Trump supporter?

Just stop before you hurt yourself.

[Daevelian]

I'm gonna go with 0% chance of the horde winning this war, since if the horde won, the alliance would cease to exist. Dunno if you realised but the lich queen kinda wants all non human alliance dead and all humans in the alliance turned into forsaken. If the horde's goal was achieved then we would no longer have a game.

[Steampunkette]

I'm gonna go with 0% chance of the horde winning this war, since if the horde won, the alliance would cease to exist. Dunno if you realised but the lich queen kinda wants all non human alliance dead and all humans in the alliance turned into forsaken. If the horde's goal was achieved then we would no longer have a game.

Yeah... That's headcanon and nothing more.

There's never been anything in books, comics, games, or otherwise that has Sylvanas going "I wanna kill everyone! Tralalalalaaaa!" In point of fact it would go -against- her characterization as presented thus far.

[Dristereau]

Honestly? Horde. They're hinting that the Alliance has become too united, so I'm expected a massive internal conflict/explosion in the Alliance that causes them to fall apart somewhat. I think that the Horde will come out more unified and stronger than before.

Don't get me wrong, it won't be an overall domination, just a stronger outcome for the Horde and at the end of the Expansion, the big bad and 9.0 stuff will take priority over faction wars again.

[Daevelian]

Yeah... That's headcanon and nothing more.

There's never been anything in books, comics, games, or otherwise that has Sylvanas going "I wanna kill everyone! Tralalalalaaaa!" In point of fact it would go -against- her characterization as presented thus far.

"We are Forsaken, We will slaughter anyone who stands in our way." Merely clicking on her gives you the classical saturday morning cartoon villain vibe. Has she straight out said she wants everyone dead or forsaken? no. Has it been implied? yes. Is it headcanon to reach such an assumption? well, that depends on how much you worship her i guess.

As for characterisation? Sorry, i didn't realise someone who massacres a large amount of wildlife just because she is having a tantrum would mean her characterisation goes against wanting to kill anything in her way.

[Traveler Voltin]

zero. current devs have human boner.

[Frumpy Frumpy Frak]

They'd need to find a way to make it enjoyable for the Horde players but the game could carry on if the Horde lost. I mean, it's not like Anduin is out to kill the entire Horde population, he just wants to protect his people.

The Horde are meant to be underdogs, having them be defeated and then oppressed by warmongering elements within the Alliance and then have them secretly rebel against said elements could be interesting.

[Airwaves]

Nobody mentions the option of both sides losing. For example, after years of fighting and their forces dwindled the old gods attack and obliterate both faction. This will be used to bring the game into a single factions to avoid players been divided by factions. BFA will be one last hurrah for the factions before removing them.

[seleri]

BFA will be one last hurrah for the factions before removing them.

Been saying this since BFA was announced. Really hope it's the case. A war neither side can ever win, or even have semi-meaningful victories, is just boring.

[Feanoro]

The Horde are meant to be underdogs

They haven't been since BC.

[Mcbenchpress]

The Horde has my character, which is way better than your Alliance character.

[sillag]

i dont think its narratively possible for the alliance to lose. they might get beaten up for a patch or two then anduin will learn a big life lesson and that will empower him to turn it around and win

tbh the world is better off with alliance winning than sylvanas so i dont hold it against them.

[Frumpy Frumpy Frak]

They haven't been since BC.

People seem to be nostalgic for those days, maybe they might enjoy a return to form.