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  1. #401
    Deleted
    I love how people are trying to bring in lore and logic when the reality is

    - Yo, we need to add some content in the next expansion. What is really easy to implement?
    - Allied races. Its just existing assets+ a bit of customization, Really no more than a few days of work
    - Cool, what do we add?
    - Well obviously, the Zandalar+Highmountain to the Horde and the Lightforged Dranei and the Dark Iron Dwarves to the Allinace. That's obvious enough.
    - Cool, but what most people play are elves so that's what sells the most. Find a way to get some blood elf models in the Alliance and some night elf models in the Horde.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    At the bottom you get Liadrin and Thalyssra hanging out BEFORE she heads to freaking Silvermoon, Shakou. It's not "Alleria did the thing! Quick!Send for Thalyssra in Suramar to come fix it for us!" it's "Hey, Liadrin. Glad we could talk in pleasant circumstances. So I wanna join the Horde. Originally I was gonna go Alliance, but they're a bag of dicks." "Wait, really? How do we know you won't betray us like Elisande?" "Cause I won't!" "Great! Let's go to Silvermoon so you can talk to Lorthemar."
    That Elisande/Azshara quote is actually from Tyrande during the incursion quests when Khadgar introduces Thalyssra to her.


    I've no idea why it's been added in the dialogue between Liadrin and Thalyssra but perhaps it'll be like a flashback to it or Thalyssra summoning a image of Tyrande to say it or such. Or it's just Wowhead borking datamined stuff up rushing to get it up.

    edit-- Sort of confirmed, Tyrande's 7.3.5. voiceline is just a repeat of what she said to Thalyssra and it got some filter to it as to make it a magic image saying it or something else.
    Last edited by sylvira; 2017-12-02 at 12:37 PM.

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Nice wording there. Over-reliant. Addicted you mean. Lots of them were. Even though Tyrande wasn't. It was a reason why they turned away from the arcane addiction.
    I don't think he meant it in that sense, more in the sense that someone who uses their phone for everything when sometimes there would be more practical options is over-reliant on their phone. He's not addicted to his phone, he just uses it needlessly to perform trivial tasks.

    The Nightborne are actually a great 'snapshot' of Highborne society from 10,000 years ago, and Night Elf culture has moved drastically away from that, with reason. The Highborne also used magic for trivial purposes like fancy, magical costume parties. They used it frivolously.

    The Blood Elves, however, are the inheritors of the Highborne legacy. Their ancestors were the Highborne who crossed from Kalimdor, became diurnal and drastically changed in their complexion, height and shape following the creation of the Sunwell. They, for a time, lost access to the Sunwell. Their leader treated with the Legion out of desperation. If there is any faction that Thalyssra would immediately recognise as the one best equipped to help her people recover from the aftermath of their ordeal, it would be the Sin'dorei.

    Tyrande's cattiness certainly wouldn't have helped, but with or without it the Nightborne would not have joined the Alliance. Before I knew about allied races, the moment I watched the interaction between Liadrin and Silgryn on the Vindicaar, I've known they were seeding the idea of the Nightborne joining the Horde. That we get to play as them is just that much more fantastic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Didn't help that he had Sky Admiral Warcrimes McEvillaugh flying his airship for him.
    hi im tydrane from dranasuss

  4. #404
    Well, it was to be expected, when neutral factions pick sides, half of the playerbase will feel betrayed and wonder why we bothered helping them, i’m sure the Horde are wondering why they bothered helping the army of light right now, just like many Alliance players are currently wishing they left the Nightborne to just shrivel up and die already...

    Just another one of those “faction war”-issues... ~_~

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
    The full context of that situation is that she is prepared to do for the Blood Elves what they did for her people. There's other dialogue we've already talked about that establishes that Thalyssra does not like/trust the Night Elves. It's that simple. And it's made concrete with this bit of dialogue after they join the Horde:

    Joining the Horde
    When our city faced its darkest hour, the heroes of Azeroth fought with us to drive out the Legion. Some did so reluctantly.
    But the sin'dorei--the blood elves--showed us respect and understanding. Their kinship proved there were others in Azeroth who share our values.

    They choose the join the Horde because as I was already saying from the beginning here, the Horde have the same values as them. The Horde accepts people fully into their ranks without asking them to change their cultural identity and customs. The Alliance does not, they expect you to conform and do things their way or else.

    Look the dialogue about testing her skills in Ashenvale is really hammy and all but it's not undermining her character and if it is, it's a small offense. On the whole by her joining the Horde they are establishing an evolution of her character. She is going from a person that needed allies to help her save her people, to a person willing to do the same for others.

    Liadrin and First Arcanist Thalyssra: Invitation to Silvermoon
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: Greetings, Lady Liadrin, $p. Welcome back to Suramar. I am pleased to receive you under more pleasant circumstances.
    Lady Liadrin: It is good to see your city free, First Arcanist.
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: For that, we owe you both a great debt. You proved instrumental to our cause.
    Lady Liadrin: The Horde was proud to fight by your side against the Burning Legion, my lady.
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: I must admit, when I first learned of the Horde, I was skeptical that we would share common ground.
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: I thought our kin from Kalimdor would make obvious allies. But their arrogance and mistrust soon proved otherwise.
    Lady Liadrin: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won't betray us and become the next Elisande... the next Azshara?
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande's oppression.
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that... we shall see where Elune's wisdom guides us.
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: It would seem "Elune's wisdom" guided her away from the bond we once shared. So be it.
    Lady Liadrin: The sin'dorei are also scorned by Tyrande and her prideful lot. Yet for many ages her people slept in dens or hid in trees while my people fought to save this world.
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: The Alliance feels too walled off... too cloistered. My people will never endure such stagnation again.
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: That is why I am grateful for your invitation to Silvermoon. I would like to inquire whether there could be a place for the nightborne in your Horde.
    Lady Liadrin: I am sure the regent lord will be pleased to learn of your interest. Are you ready to depart?
    First Arcanist Thalyssra: It would be an honor, Lady Liadrin. Oculeth has the coordinates to your capital. I will gather Silgryn and Valtrois, and meet you in Silvermoon.

    It could be better written out, but the story itself is well plotted and there are totally solid motivations, and I had predicted as much when people were speculating if Nightborne would ever be a playable race that they would join the Horde from the get go and this totally makes sense. The Blood Elves and them have a lot in common, and joining the Horde absolutely means fighting against the Horde's enemies.

    It means they can't be neutral to the Night Elves.

    You've got to remember, Blood Elves/High Elves are just Night Elves that adapted and were changed due to the Sunwell. These people are all related. So it's a family fued and that Elves are all Elves and often hate different factions of Elves is established very well not only here but in other places in 7.3.5 and was a huge part of the Battle for Suramar in Legion.

    Master Umbric:
    Silvermoon turned its back on us long ago. Today we are reborn... and it is fitting that we walk a new path. From this day forth, the Alliance has our loyalty.
    High elf? Please. Why would you want to be a high elf when you can look all tragic and brooding?
    I admit, purple was never my favorite color. But lately it's growing on me. Literally.
    I suppose I can forgive you for not being a fan of elves. After all, half of us dislike the other half rather intensely.

    Now there's some other reasons people might be pissed about that dialogue but it is what it is. More or less the Blood Elves are faced with a similar situation to what the Nightborne had just gone through, so of course they are sympathetic to that.


    As for the rest, including speculation about Allied races in 7.3.5 and when the burning of Teldrassil happens...I am confident it will play out like this, for one in order for the Nightborne/Void Elve stuff to have a real impact it will have to be laid out now right on the heels of Legion and not brought up later.

    To give a little real world background here: Wars don't break out suddenly because of a battle or attack happening out of nowhere, politics and the need for resources are actually a primary and good reason that wars break out. So if you thought that the war breaks out because of either the Battle at Undercity or Teldrassil burning you were already off. The war breaks out before then.

    I think how this is gonna go down is like the Broken Shore scenario in Legion. You will play the Battle of Undercity after Teldrassil burns.
    And actually more data mined dialogue backs a lot of this up:

    Archmage Khadgar
    It seems our victory on Argus was a hollow one. With his final blow, Sargeras has done much more than bury his blade in the heart of our world.
    I had hoped that after the war against the Legion, the people of Azeroth would build a new future together. But now the unity we forged has been shattered.
    As the life essence of Azeroth bleeds out, the leaders of the Alliance and Horde scramble to claim it as a resource. Blades are drawn, and the tides of war are rising once again.

    Horde Embassy Dialogue
    Sylvanas Windrunner: Leaders of the Horde, I summoned you here--along with one of our greatest champions--because our enemies are gathering their strength.
    Sylvanas Windrunner: War is coming. We need fresh blood added to the ranks of the Horde. What say you?
    Baine Bloodhoof: Warchief, the tauren of Highmountain fought boldly alongside us in our campaign against the Burning Legion, just as our ancestors did long ago.
    Baine Bloodhoof: I have invited their leaders to a great feast in Mulgore. This could be a chance to bring them to our side.
    Sylvanas Windrunner: A simple people, but strong. They would be a boon on the battlefield.
    Lady Liadrin: I too have a suggestion, Warchief. The sin'dorei have maintained diplomatic ties with the nightborne since we helped liberate Suramar from the Legion.
    Lady Liadrin: The regent lord and I agree that our kingdoms have much in common. We believe the nightborne would make valuable allies.
    Lady Liadrin: Even without the Nightwell, Suramar holds vast arcane resources. A most useful arrow added to my quiver.
    Sylvanas Windrunner: Each option would have its uses. I believe $n knows both these peoples. Which potential ally do you suggest we pursue first?


    Anduin:
    The strength of the Lightforged is most welcome in our ranks, High Exarch.
    Both these qualities will be needed in the days to come. And thank you for your part in bringing them to our cause, $p.
    For the Alliance!
    I am eager for the Lightforged to join the Alliance. Turalyon, bring our champion with you to the Vindicaar so that you may address your troops together.
    It may take time for these void elves to earn the trust of some in our ranks. But so long as they adhere to your teachings, they are welcome in the Alliance.
    You have done us a great service this day, Lady Windrunner, $p. You have my thanks.
    For the Alliance!
    Welcome, friend $p. I am King Anduin Wrynn. As a new member of the Alliance, I wished to greet you personally.
    The Lightforged may be a recent addition to our ranks, but I know the draenei well. I am confident you will embody the dedication and courage of the Army of the Light.
    The void elves may be a recent addition to our ranks, but Alleria Windrunner is one of our greatest heroes. Under her tutelage, the powers you wield will aid our cause.
    These are troubled times for Azeroth. In the days to come, you will face many trials... fight many foes. Know that you are never alone against the darkness, for the Alliance stands with you.
    I look forward to hearing of your progress. Something tells me we will speak again soon.
    Safe travels, $p. May the Light be with you always.
    Safe travels, $p. Though you walk among the shadows, you are a beacon of hope to us all.
    Thank you for joining us, champion. These are dire times indeed.
    We all know the Alliance incurred heavy losses in the war against the Legion. And even now, the world bleeds in the aftermath of Sargeras's final strike.
    Meanwhile, the Horde musters its forces and arms for war. Their aggression must not go unanswered.
    Our future depends on bringing other like-minded allies into the fold. I call upon those of you gathered here for your suggestions.
    Thank you, High Exarch. Lightforged soldiers would indeed bring strength to our numbers.
    Stormwind has suffered at the hands of those who succumbed to the shadow's whispers. But if others could master its power as you have, they would make formidable allies.
    Thank you both for your counsel. I would like to hear our champion's perspective on which of these potential allies we should reach out to first.
    Lady Windrunner, please begin the search for your exiled kin. Perhaps our champion here can assist you.
    You have seen the devastation in Silithus with your own eyes, $p. You know what is at stake.
    The Horde will stop at nothing to claim the lifeblood of Azeroth. I fear that after the war against the Legion, our ranks are too depleted to stave off their aggression.
    It is time for the Alliance to bring in new members to join our cause. We have established an embassy in Stormwind to spearhead these efforts. Meet me there.

    Pure speculation, the Horde won't be responsible for burning Teldrassil, I think it's another ploy by Wrathion who is well due to become a major character in the game again.
    Wait, they call the Nightelves proud... pot calling kettle black for both of them tbh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    Well, it was to be expected, when neutral factions pick sides, half of the playerbase will feel betrayed and wonder why we bothered helping them, i’m sure the Horde are wondering why they bothered helping the army of light right now, just like many Alliance players are currently wishing they left the Nightborne to just shrivel up and die already...

    Just another one of those “faction war”-issues... ~_~
    Except, we only see Liandrin actually help. And only blood elves answer the call for help at all from the Horde. I mean sure, horde players help, but the horde faction? Seems Sylvanas is too busy plotting to destroy Stormwind tbh.
    For the Alliance, and for Azeroth!

  6. #406
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajidehak View Post
    You want Tyrande to do something evil to show Thalyssra is good. Or basically you want a character gets butchered for the development of another character.

    Wasn't Tyrande's presence in Suramar enough?
    Tyrande attacking Thalyssra in Ashenvale would be justified, though? Like... Straight up?

    The resources spent, lives included, on helping to save Suramar and the Shal'dorei from their leader, before toppling their leader and taking the eye of Aman'thul, would be viewed as "Wasted" as you've said, time and time again, Ajidehak. To then have Thalyssra immediately go to Ashenvale and start building defenses or using her anti-illusion magic to go Spy-Hunting by making their stealth break so the Horde can slaughter Night Elves would confirm that not only has she joined the enemy faction: She's actually -actively- supporting their specifically Anti-Nelf activities.

    At which point attacking her and her people would be a justified action after the events of Silithus/Seething Shore 'start the war' officially.

    Taking the first swing against an opponent in wartime isn't evil. Unless you're specifically aiming to kill as many civilians as humanly (elvenly?) possible. Thalyssra wouldn't be Good or Evil. Neither would Tyrande in that fight. They'd just be enemies. But it would give Sylvanas the leverage she'd need over Lorthemar, Baine, and Saurfang in order to push for a concentrated attack on the Night Elves and Teldrassil.

    Which could then lead to its fated burning in a narrative flow that isn't pig ignorant "The Horde is Aggressive, LoL!"
    When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like injustice.

  7. #407
    red shirt guy confirms something that for me it was obvious that badly attributed a dialogue to thalysrra in wowhead. Much controversy caused this to attack Ashenvale, it is good to clarify that Thalyssra does not say anything about that!

    http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...postcount=2107

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    red shirt guy confirms something that for me it was obvious that badly attributed a dialogue to thalysrra in wowhead. Much controversy caused this to attack Ashenvale, it is good to clarify that Thalyssra does not say anything about that!

    http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...postcount=2107
    Um... he doesn't say that she doesn't say anything about Ashenvale, only saying those voice lines that Tyrande says aren't hers.
    For the Alliance, and for Azeroth!

  9. #409
    Deleted
    Tyrande and her people are xenophobic, it's only natural people don't want to deal with them in any way.

  10. #410
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    Um... he doesn't say that she doesn't say anything about Ashenvale, only saying those voice lines that Tyrande says aren't hers.
    He confirms that some lines on WoWhead are being misattributed in that post.

    Meanwhile if you check Thalyssra's Voiceover Lines, she says nothing about going to Ashenvale.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0k7rFqNot0

    So it's being put forward that the line is being misattributed, since the entire thing is voice-acted out in advance and the Voiceover Files have been datamined.
    When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like injustice.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    He confirms that some lines on WoWhead are being misattributed in that post.

    Meanwhile if you check Thalyssra's Voiceover Lines, she says nothing about going to Ashenvale.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0k7rFqNot0

    So it's being put forward that the line is being misattributed, since the entire thing is voice-acted out in advance and the Voiceover Files have been datamined.
    Curious who that line should be attributed to then? Maybe a void elf?
    For the Alliance, and for Azeroth!

  12. #412
    The Blood Elves are more culturally similar to the Nightborne, having carried on the ideals of the Highborne that resulted in their exile from Kalimdor, and are more sympathetic for having undergone struggles that nearly mirror the Nightborne's own. Pair that with an envoy that showed compassion for Thalyssra's people, and could manage a conversation without spewing insults, and it's not hard to see why the Nightborne chose the Horde.

    There's only a physical similarity between the Nightborne and the Night Elves, which is certainly not enough to sway the vote in their favour.

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excellion View Post
    They hid from the Legion when Azeroth was in danger and abandoned their own people, then sold out to the Legion without a fight, Night Elves helped fight for them despite all the betrayal, and basically it was Night Elven item that helped cure their hunger...

    Just another betrayal in a line of betrayals from the Nightborne...I guess it's more than just a Human trait to find the truth offensive.
    As true as it can be, it's still quite undiplomatic. The Gilneans (i.e. Worgen) did the same come the Scourge invasion, when they basically told the rest of the human kingdoms (Lordaeron in the first place) to go screw themselves. But in their time of need, NEs and SW humans saved and sheltered them without saying a word, which was also a quite elegant way of chastising them.

    Now, Tyrande has shown, time and time again, that she's unfit for political leadership, especially when it comes to diplomacy. She may be a fine military leader, an inspiring religious presence, but politics are best kept off her. The thing is, the NEs don't have any other prominent figure to turn to. Malfurion is almost neutral to this point, and will DIAF if the rumours are true. The rest of the NE cast are either dead (Fandral) or even worse than Tyrande (Maiev, Shandris).

  14. #414
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    Curious who that line should be attributed to then? Maybe a void elf?
    It appears to be stated within the Embassy map, and it's position in the playback is accurate, but none of the datamined characters say it at all.

    It may have been something that was in an earlier internal build that got cut from the Dialogue Script but hasn't been removed from the Broadcast Script, yet, due to oversight. A fact for which I would rejoice because as I've maintained: The flippancy and pointless aggression of the line does not fit Thalyssra's character as written.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajidehak View Post
    I don't even understand a single thing you are saying here. I just said why must Tyrande be sacrificed for the development of other characters. The main reason that Tyrande was put in Suramar was to justify Nightborne's choice of joining the Horde. Blizz always used that method time to time. You jumped to a completely different matter.

    What the Nightborne did to Night Elves can't be justified in any way and it disgust me to even argue about such matter. Nightborne were total assholes to the Night Elves and Night Elves never did anything to them and it is more disgusting to see people trying to justify it by showing that Night Elves are evil through headcanon.
    Yeah... um... no.

    You are completely misconstruing what I've said, there. Or misreading it. Willfully or otherwise.

    I'm saying that it would fit into Tyrande's characterization to fight Thalyssra in Ashenvale, based on the perceived betrayal of joining the Horde -and- Thalyssra actively acting against Night Elf interests in Ashenvale. If she did so, it would justify Sylvanas starting up a serious war-effort on Kalimdor to go after the Night Elves because she and Lorthemar could use the event to convince Saurfang to take on the war effort that ultimately culminates in the destruction of Teldrassil.

    At no point am I trying to cast Tyrande as Evil, or kill her character off.
    When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like injustice.

  15. #415
    The Alliance lost the Nightborne because they are dicks who are upset that their former people (that offered their help in Suramar despite their bad blood) who felt the brunt of their heavy mistakes would still be distrustful to them, so instead of working to fixing that broken trust, they take the easier route of siding with the fellow drug addicts that will unconditionally accept them and by doing so aiding the Horde against the kaldorei, only vindicating and justifying Tyrande's (and other kaldorei's) distrust in them.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by shinros View Post
    It's not Thalyssra fault that Tyrande has the diplomatic skills of a potato. Thalyssra even states she hoped to see allies in the night elves lol.
    Now, let's not be unfair. She doesn't have the diplomatic skills of a potato.


    At least potatoes know not to constantly spit in your face.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Now, let's not be unfair. She doesn't have the diplomatic skills of a potato.


    At least potatoes know not to constantly spit in your face.
    Tyrande has full right to spit in the face of the Nightborne after what they've done. The fact that Thalyssra doesn't see this as a reason to prove their worth, but instead to join the Horde does nothing more than justify Tyrande's behavior.

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Now, let's not be unfair. She doesn't have the diplomatic skills of a potato.


    At least potatoes know not to constantly spit in your face.
    Do they, though? Or are they just physically incapable of the act?

    We may never know...

    *sighs, and sets aside her 'potato with lips' genetic engineering designs*
    When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like injustice.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Tydrane View Post
    That we get to play as them is just that much more fantastic.
    I dont want to go into all that again, me and others have been into this from both sides, and I understand what you mean.

    What I quoted from you is all that matters in the end, and I wanted to be a part of them(Suramar is awesome) from day one, and seeing the models its something I really look forward to play and make main and alts and so on. They did make Thalryssa into a petty elvish woman being after all the actual good character development she had in the Suramar story, but thats ignorable because Nightborne playable is awesome!

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Tyrande has full right to spit in the face of the Nightborne after what they've done. The fact that Thalyssra doesn't see this as a reason to prove their worth, but instead to join the Horde does nothing more than justify Tyrande's behavior.
    But... but these are _different_ Nightborne, they won’t make the same mistakes the others did (Stop giggling back there!), of course they should be let off without any consequence for their actions! /sarcasm

    They’ll fit right in the horde, you know how those magic junkies like to cling together...

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