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  1. #61
    Arthas was undead in WoW, so Horde actually lost another potential leader.

    /discuss

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Okay, now explain her behavior in Warlords of Draenor while she and Varian visit your Garrison and she's once again arguing against working with the Horde to stop the Iron Horde that invaded Azeroth and nearly rolled a bomb into Stormwind. It's not like she was working on rebuilding trust with the Horde and then the Broken Shore happened, Blizzard completely disregarded her development in War Crimes and continues to do so, to the point that her plot arc in Battle for Azeroth is a literal retread of her development in War Crimes by all accounts.

    And this isn't exclusive to Jaina, either. How many times, now, have they recycled the "overthrow a tyrant and go on a Hero's Journey" plot arc for the orcs when the whole point of the orc storyline in Warcraft 3 was the Horde establishing itself as a positive force for good on Azeroth by coming to the world-tree's defense?
    I've said this before. Post-Theramore Jaina wanted to wipe the Horde off the face of the earth or at least completely dismantle the faction, as she said at Garrosh's arrest. Post-War Crimes Jaina no longer wanted the Horde wiped out or disbanded, but that does not mean she was willing to make nice with or cooperate with them. Remember she gave orders to the arcane guardians to not let Horde into their base in Talador, Khadgar had to override them to get us in. Post-War Crimes Jaina was basically "Screw the Horde, do your best to pretend they don't exist, and hope they keep out of our way."

    So Jaina's mindset basically went from "insane kill them all with a tidal wave" immediately after Theramore. Kalecgos talked her down. At Garrosh arrest she saw the chance to dismantle the Horde as a faction and went for that, but Varian wasn't cooperative. So from there she basically tries to ignore them, certainly doesn't trust them, and doesn't like other members of the Kirin Tor (aka Khadgar) overriding her wishes. Then Broken Shore happens and now she's kicking herself for not pushing for the dismantling harder, because in her mind that gave the Horde the opening they needed to get another cheap shot in. So now she's back to wanting them to dead.

    In WoW rep terms she went from hated up to unfriendly, then back to hated towards the Horde.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  3. #63
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I've said this before. Post-Theramore Jaina wanted to wipe the Horde off the face of the earth or at least completely dismantle the faction, as she said at Garrosh's arrest. Post-War Crimes Jaina no longer wanted the Horde wiped out or disbanded, but that does not mean she was willing to make nice with or cooperate with them. Remember she gave orders to the arcane guardians to not let Horde into their base in Talador, Khadgar had to override them to get us in. Post-War Crimes Jaina was basically "Screw the Horde, do your best to pretend they don't exist, and hope they keep out of our way."
    Except that by the end of War Crimes, she had multiple epiphanies that didn't point to "ignore the Horde." Even at her lowest point during the testimony, while her wounds from Theramore were reopened and raw, she dealt a massive blow to Tyrande's case for execution by acknowledging that the Horde isn't Garrosh. This epiphany is reinforced when she fights herself as she was when she was ready to drown Orgrimmar.

    Then she about-faces and begins acting as a detriment to the war effort on Draenor by behaving as though the Horde were still to blame for Garrosh's behavior by banning them from assisting Khadgar in a matter of top-level importance, arguing against taking allies where the Alliance could get them on a hostile planet they know nothing about in terms of wildlife, terrain, and Iron Horde strongholds, and acts like she never had her epiphany at the end of War Crimes.

    So Jaina's mindset basically went from "insane kill them all with a tidal wave" immediately after Theramore. Kalecgos talked her down. At Garrosh arrest she saw the chance to dismantle the Horde as a faction and went for that, but Varian wasn't cooperative. So from there she basically tries to ignore them, certainly doesn't trust them, and doesn't like other members of the Kirin Tor (aka Khadgar) overriding her wishes. Then Broken Shore happens and now she's kicking herself for not pushing for the dismantling harder, because in her mind that gave the Horde the opening they needed to get another cheap shot in. So now she's back to wanting them to dead.
    If that's the headcanon you have to fill in the blanks, cool, but the official portrayal between War Crimes, 6.0-6.2, and 7.0 are highly inconsistent with one another until she's written out of the plot for Legion (because, as we all know, there would be nothing on Jaina's mind other than 'Horde Bad' even when she was present at the Battle for Mt. Hyjal and went for Kalimdor in the first place because of the Burning Legion's threat). Her behavior on Draenor sounds more like she stepped fresh off the Isle of Thunder than sat through a lengthy trial that involved being forced to admit Garrosh was an extreme element that the Horde turned on, that Theramore was a legitimate military target, and then had to face herself at her worst to reinforce her new understanding of just how far down the rabbit hole she and Vereesa had pushed one another.

    In WoW rep terms she went from hated up to unfriendly, then back to hated towards the Horde.
    This is more like Blizzard randomly rolling back a bunch of rep gains to keep her at Hostile and pretend she didn't do the dailies to get to Unfriendly in the first place.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    Except that by the end of War Crimes, she had multiple epiphanies that didn't point to "ignore the Horde." Even at her lowest point during the testimony, while her wounds from Theramore were reopened and raw, she dealt a massive blow to Tyrande's case for execution by acknowledging that the Horde isn't Garrosh. This epiphany is reinforced when she fights herself as she was when she was ready to drown Orgrimmar.

    Then she about-faces and begins acting as a detriment to the war effort on Draenor by behaving as though the Horde were still to blame for Garrosh's behavior by banning them from assisting Khadgar in a matter of top-level importance, arguing against taking allies where the Alliance could get them on a hostile planet they know nothing about in terms of wildlife, terrain, and Iron Horde strongholds, and acts like she never had her epiphany at the end of War Crimes.

    If that's the headcanon you have to fill in the blanks, cool, but the official portrayal between War Crimes, 6.0-6.2, and 7.0 are highly inconsistent with one another until she's written out of the plot for Legion (because, as we all know, there would be nothing on Jaina's mind other than 'Horde Bad' even when she was present at the Battle for Mt. Hyjal and went for Kalimdor in the first place because of the Burning Legion's threat). Her behavior on Draenor sounds more like she stepped fresh off the Isle of Thunder than sat through a lengthy trial that involved being forced to admit Garrosh was an extreme element that the Horde turned on, that Theramore was a legitimate military target, and then had to face herself at her worst to reinforce her new understanding of just how far down the rabbit hole she and Vereesa had pushed one another.

    This is more like Blizzard randomly rolling back a bunch of rep gains to keep her at Hostile and pretend she didn't do the dailies to get to Unfriendly in the first place.
    Obviously we have two very different frames of mind. I see something that doesn't make sense, I look at the events and try to put myself in the character's shoes to try to figure out what they're thinking. You see something that doesn't make sense, don't even bother, and just go 'lol blizz is lazy/bad.' Can't argue with people like that.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  5. #65
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Obviously we have two very different frames of mind. I see something that doesn't make sense, I look at the events and try to put myself in the character's shoes to try to figure out what they're thinking. You see something that doesn't make sense, don't even bother, and just go 'lol blizz is lazy/bad.' Can't argue with people like that.
    I look at how a character is portrayed, and if it doesn't make sense, I'm going to say it doesn't make sense. That's not spreading misinformation like you initially accused me of, that's pointing out that Blizzard inconsistently portrayed a character and that's why she has a fucking reputation for being inconsistently portrayed.

    No, you can't argue with people like that, because you're arguing a case that was never made to begin with. Put your damn strawman away because I hurt your cute little headcanon that magically gives Blizzard a pass for inconsistent and lazy character writing that does one of the franchise veterans a disservice on the level of Superman's portrayal in the New 52.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Utigarde View Post
    Besides the fact that it has night elven ears, night elven skin tones compared to the flames with Sylvanas, and a night elven archer's outfit, sure, no other elf.
    pale elf and blue hood/armor. seems like a high elf to me.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    -sigh- another person who doesn't know how to tell time or how it works in the game. As of 7.3.5 Teldrassil isn't burned down yet.
    Wasn't it stated somewhere that the events of the cinematic and the burning of Teldrassil will make sense when the pre-patch rolls in?

    That said, secondary leaders like Eitrigg and Liadrin are also in the embassy. Especially after Malfurion became somewhat relevant due to Illidan's final messages to him and Tyrande, his absence remains somewhat curious IMO. Speaking of Vereesa, I did not really mind it as the character that could be logistically considered her Horde counterpart, Aethas Sunreaver, is absent from the Horde building.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaichu View Post
    Wasn't it stated somewhere that the events of the cinematic and the burning of Teldrassil will make sense when the pre-patch rolls in?
    They said that the exact minutes of release of BFA would be right after the end of the Cinematic for BFA. Assuming that the burning of Teldrassil will be the pre-expansion event.

    That said 7.3.5 is NOT the pre-patch for BFA. All pre-patches are .0s meaning that BFAs pre-patch will be 8.0

  9. #69
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Wrathion is missing now but isnt it interesting how he was even there in the first place. Something about the Alliance attracts him or, more likely, he doesn't think the Horde has forgotten his double dealing.

    Besides he is no longer unique and should be allowed to go Alliance. The only other purified black dragon, Ebonhorn, is a member of the Horde now. It would bring balance.

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