Is Firearms Ownership in the US becoming a Cult?

[King Shark]

And like I said you would be factually wrong about that, Hell the NRA itself proves you to be wrong.

Something having a cult like fallowing is no different then someone being a fanboy to a game company.

So if you are saying there can't be a cult or cult like fallowing for guns then you also admit there is no such thing as fanboy's?

I hate the NRA as much as the next guy, but if you're going to start dropping the f-bomb (fact), you're going to have to do a fuck ton more than talk out of your ass and make inane comparisons. A fact requires a source.

Show me the data you're basing your premise on, or maybe dial the hyperbole back down from 11.

Or don't and continue to look ridiculous.

[Jtbrig7390]

no, im not factually wrong about that. A cult insinuates a religious obsession. I have yet to meet someone that worshipped guns.

So just because you haven't meet someone who worships guns means there isn't people out there like that?

I haven't touched the sun but I bet you the sun is hot as fuck.

cult
kəlt/Submit
noun
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

You haven't watched any news in the past year or two if you don't think there is people out there who would kill you before limiting the 2nd amendment.

[Ghostpanther]

So just because you haven't meet someone who worships guns means there isn't people out there like that?

I haven't touched the sun but I bet you the sun is hot as fuck.



You haven't watched any news in the past year or two if you don't think there is people out there who would kill you before limiting the 2nd amendment.

It already is limited in how one can exercise it. Not heard of the bunch of people running around killing those who are anti-gun over it. Besides I would like to see a link to a story from a event such as you claim. And even if it is true, I do not see a need to make gun ownership any more restrictive than it is, because of the small minority being dumb-asses.

What I do see is needed, is better enforcement of the laws we do have and stronger background checks, with a effort to stop any loopholes. Would not bother me ether if congress passes a law banning bump stocks. The NRA is not opposed to that by the way.

[Dystemper]

What kind of match do you think a band of unorganized, armed citizens would be against the most powerful military in the world with airplanes, bombs, tanks, etc.?

Ask Russia how it went with the Mujadeen in Afghanistan, The Russian civilians vs the Nazi in WW2, and the Viet Cong vs US in Nam .
No Modern army is able to really deal well with Guerilla tactics and unconventional warfare

- - - Updated - - -

Despite what some ex-grunt would like to claim.

Civilians with guns are cannon fodder in today's age. Civilians don't know how to organize into 'asymmetric warfare', let alone have the training to be effective snipers. The weapons the civilians of the US are allowed to purchase and possess are ineffective against modern organized armies. and their equipment. Even the Congo's army could effectively wipe out all of the US' armed civilians without much issue, even with being severely outnumbered.

You Fail to realize that a Vast majority of Gun owners in the USA are them selves Veterans and highly trained in combat tactics.

[The Oblivion]

No, most people that are gun owners have one for emergency protection, or hunting, and they dont talk about it or think about it. Its just there if they need it. Most are not gun fanatics and crazed gun haters. Just normal people that dont think much about it and dont care about all the shit you hear non stop on the news that represents the tiniest most insignificant amount of people.

[Dystemper]

Gonna stop you right the fuck there. In no way, shape, or form is a muzzle-loaded rifle the same thing as an AR-15. The rate of fire, ease of loading, greater penetration, higher range, and improved sights mean it turns one human into a killing machine. A person with a single muzzle-loaded rifle, however, can be overwhelmed much, much more easily. Even a breech-loader is a hell of a lot faster and more accurate than a muzzle-loader, and is something that could easily be used for both hunting and defense. Your idea that a semi-auto magazine-fed rifle is even remotely close to old Kentucky rifles is ridiculous and completely unfounded.

There were Automatic weapons during the time of the drafting of the second amendment.

[Moxal]

No, most people that are gun owners have one for emergency protection, or hunting, and they dont talk about it or think about it. Its just there if they need it. Most are not gun fanatics and crazed gun haters. Just normal people that dont think much about it and dont care about all the shit you hear non stop on the news that represents the tiniest most insignificant amount of people.

This. Most gun owners I know in my area just have 1-2 guns, or hunt. No fanatics, thankfully.

[endersblade]

Yes, just like eating, drinking, fucking, and breathing are becoming cults. Y'know, just because lots of people are doing it, because lots of people accept it, it's a cult!

/s

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Two things first. This isn't meant as a gun control discussion, we have a thread for that. This isn't meant for a discussion of religion, that goes into forbidden topics. Since this is intended to question a particular issue in American culture, can we try to avoid just flat out nation bashing too?

Apologies to the two or three people I've recently discussed guns with, this isn't intended as a poke at any of you and I realize it will come across as such. Again, my apologies this is just something that has been bothering me recently and today I decided to put it out for discussion.

I'm American. I grew up around guns. My father had guns, but they were shotguns and rifles for hunting. I was taught to shoot, including basic safety, before I could ride a bike or skate. Today it seems I was really young (no older than six), but that was presented as just one of the things one did. Guns were tools, and to a lesser degree sport, but what strikes me now is that they weren't really for home protection other than keeping a farm clear of vermin.

Now, I feel completely out of touch with the way I hear people talk about their firearms. I was happy to see someone mention in a thread that they bagged some turkeys, and they ate them -- that was the kind of thing I could understand. I don't know when it happened, but I think it paralleled the rise of "wars" on ideas that could never sit down at a table and sign a surrender. Somewhere along the way, we became afraid of shadows, and guns were the talisman that would keep them at bay. I bought into it too, in my own way, I just didn't fixate on guns.

I notice it now that I'm in China. I've spent years dialing back the defensive habits I built up. Home security for me today isn't having a house build in 1914, with a door that is mainly etched glass but being comfortable that I am adequately trained and armed. Home security is that I have solid walls, good locks, and the front door is steel. I suppose 2.1's yappy little poodle counts as extra security -- around 0400 I'll know the milk was delivered because she'll go to the door and warn of strangers. Now, when I go out the door I actually try to make sure I'm not actively armed unless there is a good reason, but at one time that wasn't the case.

I read posts that talk of shotguns beside the bed, guns with silencers on the nightstand and all the rest. I wonder what the hell happened. And that's when I find myself asking, is it because firearms ownership became a cult? The NRA and its speakers are the charismatic leader figures. Crime, terrorism, even the idea that our own government might go the wrong way -- those are the ever present and yet intangible threat. The faithful speak a particular way. There is disloyal speech.

Are enough of the factors there that at some point fear will cross the line into cult behavior?

The fundamental difference between now and your father's time, is there wasn't a constant narrative trying to demonize him for owning and using his weapons. People tend to get defensive and paranoid about things they're worried about losing. More people are armed with more firepower than they've ever been in our history, precicely because of the efforts within politics and culture to take the guns away. Need proof, just look at the gun sales whenever President Obama tried to do anything regarding the issue, they skyrocketed.

[PosPosPos]

no, im not factually wrong about that. A cult insinuates a religious obsession. I have yet to meet someone that worshipped guns.

I bet you were consciously excluding you and your kind when you were counting the number of gun fanatics.

[Masark]

There were Automatic weapons during the time of the drafting of the second amendment.

Would you like to specify? I am not aware of any automatic weapons that existed prior to the 1860s.

[Torgent]

Would you like to specify? I am not aware of any automatic weapons that existed prior to the 1860s.

He's wrong. He's referring to the Puckle gun, which in no way is an automatic weapon. It was merely a crank revolver that still had to be primed. It was fast firing for it's time....at like 6-10 shots per minute. Just misinformation, but he won't let that get in his way. In fact the puckle gun was basically only a prototype and was never widely used.

[shadowmouse]

NOPE....Its a Constitutional right...

The First Amendment guarantees things like the right to freely assemble and that Congress shall not make laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion, and yet that doesn't mean there are no cults.

As a Owner of guns for more than 20 years to the OP, YES it is true, there are some people who own firearms that shouldn't and many of them are so whacked out of their fucking minds, I would describe them as tribal fetish cult.

I'll say that your questions about dating that tied to friends involved with Scientology were part of what had "cult" floating around in my thoughts at the same time I was wondering about some of the gun ownership comments I see.

Quote=THE Bigzoman]I bet the Chinese have an entirely different outlook on guns. After immersing yourself in their culture and smashing some of their ladies, the attitudes from your home country seem strange/sinister.[/Quote]

A fair enough extrapolation, and politely phrased, but I'd feel on pretty firm ground to say that's not it. Simply referring to the dictionary gives us the use of a word, but there are things beyond the scope of a dictionary. Look at listings of a cult's characteristics, they go beyond simply having a charismatic leader. I'd say that's probably one of the weaker associations, things that I find more troubling include that intangible threat -- you have to belong, you have to be part of the group, there are bad things out there, if you didnn't have a gun (weren't part of the group) the bad thing would get you. There is loyal and disloyal speech, scroll through this and other threads where guns are discussed.

As I said, I feel on pretty firm ground that simply being in China hasn't converted me to believe *guns* are a sinister threat. I don't read Chinese so my news sources are primarily American and British. I don't speak Chinese, so I tend to watch American TV shows. There are a good number of expats here, so I associate with and talk to a wide range of people from all over the world, and by the way find them asking me what the hell is up with the US and guns. I do, however, love the image your mention of sex brings up: <woman engaged in cowgirl position with bungee> <bungee takes a moment to ask an important question> "By the way, as long as I have this opportunity, what do you think about gun ownership?". No, I'm old, but we find other ways to amuse ourselves.

My father's house is in a good neighborhood. His house has been broken into twice now. Walls, locks, and all that is fine... Do you have any windows in your house?

His question is, outside of literally barring the windows, what should he do to protect himself?

Yep, got windows, I've used them for years despite detesting Microsoft. Lots of other people here have windows too, but in nearly 20 years I haven't found I needed a gun, and I never needed one in the US.

1) So, why is gun ownership the go to solution? Was he home during those break ins? Probably not if I recall statistics I've looked up for other threads. It would seem not since you didn't mention anything beyond a break in. In that case, how would gun ownership have prevented either break in?

2) Why is it on him to fix the problem? Crime is a social problem. Let's say he feels owning a gun might lead to others thinking his house is a less easy target. Let's call the guy breaking in "George". George might just hate your dad and come in to piss on the carpet. When the house is empty, the gun is not a watch dog or alarm, or even locking shutters. George is still free to walk in and piss on the carpet. If George is looking for things he can use or sell, and the gun works to keep him away from your father's house, George is still a problem -- he's just someone else's problem. Why not try to figure out what the root of the problem is and address that? Why shouldn't the community take steps like improved lighting and patrolling? To repeat myself, why is it somehow on him to buy a gun?

His description makes it sound like he lives in an apartment. Any windows are probably facing the outside and several floors up, just a guess though.

Correct. I'm currently on the 21st floor of a new complex, I've lived in other places that were generally second to fifth floor. Some older residents do have bars, usually as part of a structure that builds out and provides a window box. The one common element they've always had though, is that there is an active night watchman, usually several, who will walk (nowadays cruise on his electric scooter) around the complex. There are also small police substations around, a small building that's staffed with a couple of police at a time, that would facilitate a rapid response to something like a break in.

and my best sword sits at my computer desk, where I am most of the time. I also wear a 6 1/2 inch knife on me at all times. Of course "Plan A" is one of my hidden guns in each room

Not meaning to single you out, I'm just catching up on the night's posts and yours is the first good example of these factors that I've noticed. This doesn't strike you as perhaps a bit over the top? You carry a knife all the time, even at home. You have multiple hidden guns around the house as Plan A. You have multiple large bladed weapons as Plan B. What has generated this level of unease in your life that makes you think you need all that?

The word "cult" isn't appropriate here.

Objection, counsel. You're better trained than that, produce a proper argument. What are the characteristics of a cult? I've mentioned several that bother me in this context such as the nebulous threat that always might be present and will get you if you don't have that gun. The Sharon Tate murders happened, and perhaps they fed some of this, but the statistics I find don't seem to support the level of fear I feel like I'm reading.

Dated, but I've comment before that my research options are limited: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf

Yet is guilty of doing the same thing.

Interesting, care to quote where I said that in the OP? It looks to me like I started the thread with a specific comment both indicating I wasn't interested in making this a gun control thread, and asking that that part of the discussion go to <drumroll> the gun control thread:

Two things first. This isn't meant as a gun control discussion, we have a thread for that.

Where in that post have I even implied that there should be gun control?

Since you've fired the first shot though, yes, your obsessive derails do feed into the reason I asked my question. Cults need members, the NRA needs people to fear, it needs people to seek a vigilante solution to a problem rather than seeking a social solution. That fear builds sales, it also feeds their strength as a lobby. You can't even be assed to read what is plainly written, you write to play a role for a narrative. Happy now?

The fundamental difference between now and your father's time, is there wasn't a constant narrative trying to demonize him for owning and using his weapons.

While I don't entirely disagree with you, that doesn't account for the level of fear that needs a person to constantly carry (possibly with a backup) or to have multiple guns hidden around the house, even when the statistics I can find seem to show that having a gun in the house brings increased risks including escalation of a confrontation, deadlier attempts if suicide is attempted, and some number of accidental shootings -- and yet the FBI statistics seem to show that the feared event (assault during a break in) is unlikely to happen (break ins tend to be when the owner isn't home and left a path for entry) or unlikely to happen as imagined (in home assaults are more likely to be by someone you know).

[Dystemper]

Girandoni air rifle
Nock Gun
Puckle
And other repeating flintlocks or multi barreled Volley guns . Technically more Semiauto..

and at the time of the Drafting of the Second Amendment , Cannons could and were owned by citizens.
Several of the Drafters of the 2nd were inventors and knew that technology would and could change . Saying the 2nd only applies to Muskets is disingenuous.

[Ghostpanther]

He's wrong. He's referring to the Puckle gun, which in no way is an automatic weapon. It was merely a crank revolver that still had to be primed. It was fast firing for it's time....at like 6-10 shots per minute. Just misinformation, but he won't let that get in his way. In fact the puckle gun was basically only a prototype and was never widely used.

No automatic rifles, but there did exist and actually used, repeating rifles which used more than 10 rounds invented 12 years before the creation of the Constitution. Not just the single shot musket. And the Founding Fathers were basically well educated and knew of such inventions or concepts for future use. http://controversialtimes.com/issues...-was-ratified/

[Dystemper]

No automatic rifles, but there did exist and actually used, repeating rifles which used more than 10 rounds invented 12 years before the creation of the Constitution. Not just the single shot musket. And the Founding Fathers were basically well educated and knew of such inventions or concepts for future use. http://controversialtimes.com/issues...-was-ratified/

In the NRA museum there is a few old Guns that were being worked on that were basically a form of Automatic rifle that used a crude box fed loading system and a revolving wheel flintlock system. The trigger was pulled once and as the wheel turned it would drop a charge and a projectile . They just could not get the timing right qand the dispensing of the charge . Firearms technology was rapidly growing even at that time

[Jinpachi]

Nope, knowledge of and practice in the use of the current prevalent weapon of the times is healthy and prudent with humans being an aggressive predatory species.

This is the only answer needed. plz close the thread now

[Ghostpanther]

In the NRA museum there is a few old Guns that were being worked on that were basically a form of Automatic rifle that used a crude box fed loading system and a revolving wheel flintlock system. The trigger was pulled once and as the wheel turned it would drop a charge and a projectile . They just could not get the timing right qand the dispensing of the charge . Firearms technology was rapidly growing even at that time

Interesting. But it was not a common use firearm or even operational in the field sounds like. Just a prototype concept. But the Girandoni air rifle was. Not very common, but was in limited use apparently. Yeah, the idea the Founding Fathers felt the musket was going to be the only firearm available for many, many years in the future is ludicrous.

[Jinpachi]

For American culture, it's pretty simple. We are of the mind that the human is a sovereign being. Self preservation is a divinely ordained gift. The 2nd Amendment doesn't grant us this right, it merely lets people know that's how we see things. It's not about sport or hunting. It's about killing tyrants, plain and simple. If you don't intend to impose unjust laws then you have nothing to fear. This country(and most, i'd suppose) was built on blood, and to paraphrase a quote i heard somewhere, the tree of liberty needs to be watered with the blood of tyrants from time to time. That's purely worst case scenario. The advisors to the emperor in japan during ww2 told him a land invasion would be suicide. there's be a gun behind every blade of grass. M.A.D. is a great deterrent. You know, why the fuck are we having this discussion again? Some things don't need to be explained, they're just understood.

[Ghostpanther]

For American culture, it's pretty simple. We are of the mind that the human is a sovereign being. Self preservation is a divinely ordained gift. The 2nd Amendment doesn't grant us this right, it merely lets people know that's how we see things. It's not about sport or hunting. It's about killing tyrants, plain and simple. If you don't intend to impose unjust laws then you have nothing to fear. This country(and most, i'd suppose) was built on blood, and to paraphrase a quote i heard somewhere, the tree of liberty needs to be watered with the blood of tyrants from time to time.

Yeah it does, lol! But I still like your post. Well said.