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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    This is typical for her, and honestly it goes in line with blizzards writing of women these days, all main female characters in warcraft right now are either complete dicks with an attitude, or ineffectual like Moira.

    Its funny, for the longest time I considered Knaak a bad writer, I mean he is, don't get me wrong. But i read war of the ancients entirely, and the only think I felt he at least did was make the characters in that story varied and interesting. In that book, Tyrande was a caring, gentle natured priestess who looked past what other high born night elves were like, such as her defense of broxigar.

    She's not the same character in warcraft, she almost had a moment in val'shara of fighting alongside our horde character and she could have developed respect, but instead with the nightborne she shows her same old colours again.
    How they made her in Suramar is somewhat out of character and like the the dude writes in the post below yours, they are very careful by pointing out that she is someone that rather see other people die for their cause instead herself losing too many of her own troops. It goes over and over again while Liadrin is this saint that would do anything for the Nightborne.

    Tyrande in WC3 is also someone who has no problem sacrificing herself for others like Kael'thas and there is lore of her being helped and herself helping by what we know as Blood Elves today. She was a well written character in lore and Warcraft 3 but they have destroyed both her and Malfurion in WoW, two of the strongest Warcraft-heroes there is.

    Seeing as the Tree is burning down I really hope for them to give the Night Elves some love, for them to find some strength again, it's been a while.

    Her old colors are being strong, sceptical but fair, the one we see in Suramar is only sceptical.

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    they are still highborne, like the shendralar. the night elves would have killed them, and they likely have more in common with the nightborne.
    They quite literally fought alongside Tyrande, Illidan, Malfurion, Jarod, Maiev and the other Night Elves against the Highborne and Demons during the war of the ancients, friend. They would not have killed them. Asked the mages to leave? Maybe. But I doubt even that since some of the Moon Guard were the first to follow Malfurion and become druids. The Moon Guard is literally baked into Night Elf (Darnassian) society.

    To begin with "what would have happened before Cata" doesn't really matter since we're talking about what is likely to happen at the end of Legion.

    Their former leader is part of Darnassus, their former members are part of Darnassus, Darnassus is now pretty okay with magic... Are they really going to hop on over to the Horde?

  3. #583
    Looking back apparently her sentinels working with a dwarf ambassador distrusting the blood elves in their starting zone is part of why they wound up siding with the horde.

    Dangit Tyrande if it wasn't for you we'd have ALL the elves right now! >:O
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  4. #584
    It's not like the Horde doesn't their share of betrayal by helping Turalyon and the Lightforged Draenei in Argus, only to have them declare allegiance to the Alliance in BFA.

    All in all the whole Nightborne, Highmountain, Lightforged Draenei declaring a side feels cheap and contrived.
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  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    It's not like the Horde doesn't their share of betrayal by helping Turalyon and the Lightforged Draenei in Argus, only to have them declare allegiance to the Alliance in BFA.

    All in all the whole Nightborne, Highmountain, Lightforged Draenei declaring a side feels cheap and contrived.
    It sucks that they're doing it so quickly after the expansion they were introduced in, but I suppose we just have to keep in mind that the PC isn't their faction. I mean hell, just based on what they've done in each expansion the players are more neutral than anything. Mechanics excepted I feel like the adventurers would be welcome anywhere they'd want to go.

    I know if I was roleplaying things my Hordie would still be chummy with the Lightforged. War doesn't have to mean things get all weird and race-based. Just sigh, wait for everybody to calm down, and then punch some sorta dark god to death for its treasure.
    Last edited by Luzahn; 2017-12-04 at 04:05 AM.

  6. #586
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Elisande isn't nearly as bad.
    You're right, and thus she's half as credible and loathed by her people, leading to a revolt.

    Sylvanas went to extreme lengths to ensure her people a semblance of future and actively seeked to end the most immediate threats, for personal reasons as well no doubt.

    Elisande bucked under the Legion and starved the populace under the pretense of keeping them safe.

    So yeah dude. How is life in nonsenseville?

    Edit
    And if I were in Thalyssra's shoes, I'd take the side of leaders who actually care about their people as well.
    Last edited by mmoca7e1e78f4f; 2017-12-04 at 06:40 AM.

  7. #587
    Orcboi NatePsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakou View Post


    Pretttttty sure Lady Liadrin and Thalyysra are anything but cold, uncaring and unkind.
    Damn, seeing that second speech from Tyrande pretty much confirms how little she wanted to help these guys, especially the part where she's like "The fewer of my people who will be lost in the liberation." Like, it's as if she wants to help but she wants to help as little as possible by offering the bare minimum support. Her attitude about the whole liberation and helping the Nightborne is all wrong and I can see why Thalryssa felt like they've lost the connection they once had with the Night Elves.

    Tyrande has a sort of attitude in that she'd sooner see the Nightborne be sacrificed and killed over the matter of liberation rather than doing the right thing and taking part in the liberation, regardless of casualties because that's what Allies do. That right there would have weighed heavily on Thalryssa's decision to pick a side. "Why should I side with a faction that would have sooner saw to my own kind die than see their own be killed trying to help a justified cause?"

    The way Tyrande acted about it all probably made Thalryssa lose faith in them honestly. Liadrin had the biggest hard-on for helping the Nightborne while Tyrande seemed off about it from the very beginning.
    Last edited by NatePsy; 2017-12-04 at 08:34 AM.

  8. #588
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Treehugging, superstitious, human sidekicks vs Elves with vastly similar experiences.

    Nightborne are basically a retelling of the Blood Elven struggle with mana addiction.
    But better Imo

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    You're right, and thus she's half as credible and loathed by her people, leading to a revolt.

    Sylvanas went to extreme lengths to ensure her people a semblance of future and actively seeked to end the most immediate threats, for personal reasons as well no doubt.

    Elisande bucked under the Legion and starved the populace under the pretense of keeping them safe.

    So yeah dude. How is life in nonsenseville?

    Edit
    And if I were in Thalyssra's shoes, I'd take the side of leaders who actually care about their people as well.
    Elisande "went to extreme length to ensure her people a semblance of future and actively seeked to end the most immediate threats, for personal reasons as well no doubt." The only difference is that Elisande's people were actually in immediate danger of destruction when she made a deal with an evil power to secure their place, and the Forsaken were doing perfectly well when Sylvanas made a deal with an evil power to secure their place.

    Sylvanas doesn't starve people, sure. Instead she imprisons them if they disagree with her views, kills people, raises them as slaves and then kills them a second time if they refuse to obey her.

    Starving doesn't sound that bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsychotic View Post
    Damn, seeing that second speech from Tyrande pretty much confirms how little she wanted to help these guys, especially the part where she's like "The fewer of my people who will be lost in the liberation." Like, it's as if she wants to help but she wants to help as little as possible by offering the bare minimum support. Her attitude about the whole liberation and helping the Nightborne is all wrong and I can see why Thalryssa felt like they've lost the connection they once had with the Night Elves.

    Tyrande has a sort of attitude in that she'd sooner see the Nightborne be sacrificed and killed over the matter of liberation rather than doing the right thing and taking part in the liberation, regardless of casualties because that's what Allies do. That right there would have weighed heavily on Thalryssa's decision to pick a side. "Why should I side with a faction that would have sooner saw to my own kind die than see their own be killed trying to help a justified cause?"

    The way Tyrande acted about it all probably made Thalryssa lose faith in them honestly. Liadrin had the biggest hard-on for helping the Nightborne while Tyrande seemed off about it from the very beginning.

    Tyrande did take part in the liberation regardless of the casualties. She just also wanted to inspire the Nightborne to take action and fight, to build up an actual resistance and turn the tides in their favor. I don't know why people are trying to pretend she said "Hey trick the Nightborne into dying for us so we don't have to fight" when the quest clearly says "inspire the Shal'dorei to resist". The more people are rising up and fighting, the stronger the allied forces and the less people will die in general. She says "The more people who take up the fight" people are just desperate to read into these comments however they can to make her seem like she was out to kill Nightborne.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2017-12-04 at 09:03 AM.

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsychotic View Post
    Damn, seeing that second speech from Tyrande pretty much confirms how little she wanted to help these guys, especially the part where she's like "The fewer of my people who will be lost in the liberation." Like, it's as if she wants to help but she wants to help as little as possible by offering the bare minimum support. Her attitude about the whole liberation and helping the Nightborne is all wrong and I can see why Thalryssa felt like they've lost the connection they once had with the Night Elves.

    Tyrande has a sort of attitude in that she'd sooner see the Nightborne be sacrificed and killed over the matter of liberation rather than doing the right thing and taking part in the liberation, regardless of casualties because that's what Allies do.That right there would have weighed heavily on Thalryssa's decision to pick a side. "Why should I side with a faction that would have sooner saw to my own kind die than see their own be killed trying to help a justified cause?"

    The way Tyrande acted about it all probably made Thalryssa lose faith in them honestly. Liadrin had the biggest hard-on for helping the Nightborne while Tyrande seemed off about it from the very beginning.
    Nope. She was there, helping out and liberated the Nightborne. Bolded part is actually a false statement regardless your opinion on this subject. Did you do the questline?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Tyrande did take part in the liberation regardless of the casualties. She just also wanted to inspire the Nightborne to take action and fight, to build up an actual resistance and turn the tides in their favor. I don't know why people are trying to pretend she said "Hey trick the Nightborne into dying for us so we don't have to fight" when the quest clearly says "inspire the Shal'dorei to resist". The more people are rising up and fighting, the stronger the allied forces and the less people will die in general. She says "The more people who take up the fight" people are just desperate to read into these comments however they can to make her seem like she was out to kill Nightborne.
    Yeah its hysterical that people read so wrong into this. Blizz is really trying to make Tyrande alot worse than she is and people is like "hey look, Tyrande doesn't care shit".

    She was there, helping them out. Nothing wrong in getting more people to fight for their own cause. Its just terribly written that Tyrandes scepticism is the reason why Thalryssa doesn't want anything to do with the Alliance. Her joining the Horde for similarities etc, fine. But she has no regret that she actually betrays her liberators in a way. Just have some of this into the story and it would be alot better. But maybe we get that. As Mr Loremaster pointed out earlier, it might be more to come than whats already datamined.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2017-12-04 at 10:04 AM.

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsychotic View Post
    Damn, seeing that second speech from Tyrande pretty much confirms how little she wanted to help these guys, especially the part where she's like "The fewer of my people who will be lost in the liberation." Like, it's as if she wants to help but she wants to help as little as possible by offering the bare minimum support. Her attitude about the whole liberation and helping the Nightborne is all wrong and I can see why Thalryssa felt like they've lost the connection they once had with the Night Elves.

    Tyrande has a sort of attitude in that she'd sooner see the Nightborne be sacrificed and killed over the matter of liberation rather than doing the right thing and taking part in the liberation, regardless of casualties because that's what Allies do. That right there would have weighed heavily on Thalryssa's decision to pick a side. "Why should I side with a faction that would have sooner saw to my own kind die than see their own be killed trying to help a justified cause?"

    The way Tyrande acted about it all probably made Thalryssa lose faith in them honestly. Liadrin had the biggest hard-on for helping the Nightborne while Tyrande seemed off about it from the very beginning.
    This is also a nice little bit

    The Nightborne will stay out of our way or they will die.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Down...siness_(Horde)

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Even more telling if you look at the Alliance version of the same quest.

    Also this is an even better example:

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Take...der_(Alliance)
    Tyrande Whisperwind
    I am glad to see a friendly face on this battlefield, <name>.
    It is... hard... for me to once again walk in Suramar. Ten thousand years have passed since my feet last felt the grass of this land.
    Back then, we were fleeing the Burning Legion.
    I never believed I would return to the place of my birth to wrest it from the grasp of those I once believed were my people.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Take...Leader_(Horde)
    Tyrande Whisperwind
    When I let you take the Tears of Elune, I assumed the next time we would see each other would be at the final battle with the Legion.
    I did not expect to see you in the company of mana addicts at the footsteps of the city of my birth.
    Speak quickly, <race>. I am not in the mood for Thalyssra's petitions.

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
    Even more telling if you look at the Alliance version of the same quest.

    Also this is an even better example:

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Take...der_(Alliance)
    Tyrande Whisperwind
    I am glad to see a friendly face on this battlefield, <name>.
    It is... hard... for me to once again walk in Suramar. Ten thousand years have passed since my feet last felt the grass of this land.
    Back then, we were fleeing the Burning Legion.
    I never believed I would return to the place of my birth to wrest it from the grasp of those I once believed were my people.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Take...Leader_(Horde)
    Tyrande Whisperwind
    When I let you take the Tears of Elune, I assumed the next time we would see each other would be at the final battle with the Legion.
    I did not expect to see you in the company of mana addicts at the footsteps of the city of my birth.
    Speak quickly, <race>. I am not in the mood for Thalyssra's petitions.
    A better example of Tyrande wanting to get her home city out of Elisande's control?

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    A better example of Tyrande wanting to get her home city out of Elisande's control?
    No you git, the problem is that Tyrande practically holds Thalyysra et al with the same contempt. She doesn't see any distinction between the two groups, except one is vying for control over the other.

  15. #595
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Elisande "went to extreme length to ensure her people a semblance of future and actively seeked to end the most immediate threats, for personal reasons as well no doubt." The only difference is that Elisande's people were actually in immediate danger of destruction when she made a deal with an evil power to secure their place, and the Forsaken were doing perfectly well when Sylvanas made a deal with an evil power to secure their place.

    Sylvanas doesn't starve people, sure. Instead she imprisons them if they disagree with her views, kills people, raises them as slaves and then kills them a second time if they refuse to obey her.

    Starving doesn't sound that bad.
    I'm sorry to disagree this thoroughly, but Elisande sent her peoole to die.
    Let me get this right into place: not only did she make it so that the Arcwine facility worked at an absurd rate, wearing off anybody who worked in it and killing anyone who dared to speak up or show fatigue on the spot, but she gathered her own citizens and sent them to be fuel for the Legion engines, soul powered engines.

    There's no possible comparison to be made here. Sylvanas kills and enslaves and plagues, no question about it. But her motive is her own survival and by proxy the survival of her whole race.
    It's not a cheap deal made with whatever threatening entity so that prestige and power can be kept.

    I understand that the concept of having credible motives can be hard to grasp, but the thing is there for everybody to see.

    I won't touch the Sylvanas topic further anyway, since there's a small number of people who don't take it personal beyond any possible redemption.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorish View Post
    show me how you would "rebuild" your society when all world around you in the state of war, and on your own "isle" happening some old god sh*t (again read tauren questline), and without help from other factions (resources, protection, builders, cultivators for arcandor etc. etc.)? I want to see this utopia.
    There's only one way to rebuild in peace and it is: to completely exterminate the one and only faction that starts war over and fucking over. Not to become one of its minions.
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  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    There's only one way to rebuild in peace and it is: to completely exterminate the one and only faction that starts war over and fucking over. Not to become one of its minions.
    Won't work, since the Alliance is prone to infighting once the major threat is removed, it is why it almost collapsed after the second war and was ill prepared during the third.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    You are nuts if you think the purge of Dalaran is anything like the wrathgate, Garrosh, Sylvanas or Kael's actions. The Blood Elves were free to leave, it was those who resisted who were met with force, and it was done in direct response to them doing something shitty.
    Yes, such resistant things as simply asking "Why am I being arrested?" and cowering in fear deserve a frostbolt or blizzard to the face.

    They weren't free to leave either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTpvFcSsrLA
    "Compliant Sunreavers are detained in Violet Hold. Defiant Sunreavers are put to the sword. NONE are to escape. The Sunreavers keep their mounts on Krasus landing. Use this dust on them to render them incapable of flying. Or kill them, I don't care."
    Sure looks like the Sunreavers had a choice to leave to me!

    EDIT: Jaina attacks a displaced sunreaver completely unprovoked at ~8:28 in the video to boot.
    Last edited by Etamalgren; 2017-12-11 at 05:29 PM.

  19. #599
    The Lightbringer Steampunkette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Won't work, since the Alliance is prone to infighting once the major threat is removed, it is why it almost collapsed after the second war and was ill prepared during the third.
    There is that.

    Plus the Alliance started the War of the Cataclysm when Varian tried to kill Thrall.

    Who even started the "War" that was going on in Vanilla after the peace created at the end of WC3? Is it ever explained?
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  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Won't work, since the Alliance is prone to infighting once the major threat is removed, it is why it almost collapsed after the second war and was ill prepared during the third.
    Ironically, of the kingdoms that caused it to collapse... one of those is now part of the Horde (and tried to leave it already several times), the second ate a massive amount of humble pie over that act and is in no position to do any foreign fighting for decades. The rest of them were upset over the decision not to just execute the Orcs, which considering how things turned out when they didn't... well.

    Also years and years of fighting against mutual enemies would forge closer ties than the original kingdoms ever had.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    There is that.

    Plus the Alliance started the War of the Cataclysm when Varian tried to kill Thrall.
    Pretty sure it was a separate war. They kissed and made up over that shortly prior to events of The Shattering, thus why the Twilights Hammer tried to enflame tensions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
    Who even started the "War" that was going on in Vanilla after the peace created at the end of WC3? Is it ever explained?
    Considering every Battleground involves the Horde attacking Alliance territory... you get three guesses.
    Last edited by Bigby; 2017-12-11 at 06:47 PM.

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