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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Ipsissimus View Post
    No. The fact that 1648 guilds cleared the instance in the first week, that isn't even over yet, is indicative enough that it's too easy for everyone. Or are you claiming that everyone in those guilds is far too good at the game (or is a '12 hours a day' nolifer) compared to people who raid heroic/normal?
    1248 guilds killed H KJ in the first week. H Argus's number is higher, but only slightly.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Corroc View Post
    You know that 1600 guilds are still less than 10% of the guilds that killed KJ heroic.
    That's the total. Antorus has been out for less than a week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    1248 guilds killed H KJ in the first week. H Argus's number is higher, but only slightly.
    Wrong. I'm too lazy to do the whole timezone conversion thing from wowprogress, but the number is more around 900. So hey, it's not quite twice as easy as KJ was. We still have a bit left in the reset though, I believe in the raiding community.

    Even if it was 1248, which it isn't, that'd still be a 32% increase at the moment. Your dictionary is different to any one that I happen to know, perhaps it's a language barrier.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylalai View Post
    Not by keeping up the 20 people cap.. A lot of guilds (mine included) would like to raid mythic, but it's damn difficult to find 20+ reliable, good players on your realm and keep them.
    Its true that some guilds will never raid it due to the 20 man cap. However if we look at EN, mythic was a big success there as far as participation rates. Those numbers cratered pretty hard in Nighthold pre nerfs, and even harder in ToS. Its not unreasonable to think Blizz wants to bring them back up for the last raid of the expansion esp. if there's a Sargeras phase on Argus.

  4. #364
    Stood in the Fire Visor's Avatar
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    Aggramar was definetly harder than Argus. And coven too. This bosses required some coordination and have some deadly rng. Argus is dumb. You not need any coordination. Just need to do ur personal job. We spend like....3 pulls to kill him? Too ez. Aggramar took much more time.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Ipsissimus View Post
    Your dictionary is different to any one that I happen to know, perhaps it's a language barrier.
    Lmao, that didn't take long. Weak arguments are weak.

  6. #366
    Guy in mythic guild who had farmed ToS for months complains that Heroic is too easy...

  7. #367
    Deleted
    Maybe they open mythic for cross-realm a couple of weeks after world first. Would not hurt to be honest.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Thanks for this site! It is really refreshing.

    Can you please answer a few questions for me? I really don't get how you got your numbers.
    Ahead of the Curve - Kil'Jaeden is at 21.8% right now, Cutting Edge is at 0.6%.
    AoTC Guldan is at 33.4%, CE is 2.6%

    I get that you based all your "facts" around these numbers, but consider the folllowing:
    Now You're Cooking with Netherlight is at 47.3%. So more than half of the playerbase are missing since patch 7.3?
    WoW's 13th Anniversary -> 13.9% of all CHARACTERS!

    Overall, if we see 13.9% as "100% who are still playing", 21.8% Ahead of the Curve KJ means:

    More players have killed KJ Heroic than the overall number of players who are STILL PLAYING!

    Following up; what do those people who you are talking about, do in the game? What are their "endgame"?
    I ask this because this argument is up on every topic, that Blizzard should NOT design the game for "us" Mythic-raiders.

    Pet Battles? Battle on the Broken Isles -> 7.1%. Heroic raiders are more numerous.
    Pvp? The Prestige achievement is at 10%. Heroic raiders are more numerous.
    5-man dungeons? Glory of the Legion Hero is at 5.2%. Heroic raiders are more numerous.
    The only "playerbase" that is big enough are consists of Questers. They do the content, do a few dungeons here and there, and then unsubscribe. They are the biggest "minority".

    So, all-in-all, if Blizzard should focus on a population for BALANCING this game, that population should be the heroic/mythic raiders.
    Who else?
    Balance for those who just subscribe for 1-2 months and then leave?
    Balance for the even smaller base who just do pvp?
    Balance for those who only do 5-man content?


    PLEASE please remember that "those people" who do NOT raid Mythic are not going to play with this game for more than 2-3 hours per week. They do NOT care about % numbers, they won't magically subscribe again if there is perfect balance. They won't even know when the next raid is opening, they don't care about the world first race at all.
    They are the ones who ask: what planet is that in the sky?
    The problem with them is that they do not care. You can change / balance the game in the most shittiest way possible, they will log in, do some quests, and forgot about the game again, no matter how shit/awesome it is.

    TLDR;
    Blizzard should balance the game for those who put a lot of time in it.
    The 13th Anniversary is per character. There are an absolute shit ton of dead alts spread across everyone's accounts. Myself I have like 20 characters but only actually play 4 of them with any sort of regularity, and I know some people that are worse. It is not a good barometer at all.

    And I'm pretty sure you're wrong in your assessment that everybody but Mythic raiders unsubscribe. If that were so, the sub spikes would be far more severe than what we saw back when Blizzard actually announced these things. This game has a ton of casual players that play a few times a week for a few hours yet remain subscribed nevertheless, and they outnumber us tryhard Mythic raiders many times over. You underestimate how people just want to do quests, easy dungeons and professions.

    Plus, the beauty of having several difficulties is that they can each be tailored towards an audience. LFR will be faceroll for the casual players. Normal is manageable so long as you know basic mechanics, for pugs. Heroic should be a mode that offers some real challenge, tailored to people who want to spice it up without the commitments of a Mythic guild. Mythic itself is where Blizzard stops pulling any punches. Antorus roughly follows this curve, until Argus himself. It's not like Blizzard can't design Heroic bosses, they did with Coven and Aggramar which are perfectly acceptable in terms of difficulty. But Argus was not designed as a Heroic endboss should be, for reasons I do not know.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Ipsissimus View Post
    Wrong. I'm too lazy to do the whole timezone conversion thing from wowprogress, but the number is more around 900. So hey, it's not quite twice as easy as KJ was. We still have a bit left in the reset though, I believe in the raiding community.

    Even if it was 1248, which it isn't, that'd still be a 32% increase at the moment. Your dictionary is different to any one that I happen to know, perhaps it's a language barrier.
    It's easy to see you are wrong about the numbers. Notice I said "first week".

    https://www.wowprogress.com/encounter/kil-jaeden-heroic

    https://www.wowprogress.com/encounte.../next/61#first

    We do have another day or so to go, but the difference is not earth shattering. Nor have you made any good case that the difference is a bad thing.

    Perhaps you are afraid that Blizzard is coming around to the (to my mind, correct) opinion that difficult raid content isn't any good for the commercial performance of the game? Better slowly and late than never, I guess.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Bathrezz View Post
    Guy in mythic guild who had farmed ToS for months complains that Heroic is too easy...
    So should a guy who does not raid at all complain about Heroic?
    Someone who only raids LFR (or normal)?

    Can you *guess* how many Heroic-only guilds are there? How do you describe a Heroic guild? Not stepping in Mythic at all? None of it's members? I'm pretty sure that someone who has time for an organized (we are talking about guilds) Heroic raid, then that person has time for Mythic raiding too.
    Also pugs can defeat Heroic Argus at week one. Nice.

    ..also: if there is a HC-only guild.. you think they did NOT farm heroic ToS for weeks?
    ...further: do you really want Blizz to balance raids so that "casual Heroic" players have 0 problems clearing it in 2 weeks?

  11. #371
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by tangers58 View Post
    If you thought garrosh was hard you obviously aren't the best judge of difficulty
    Well, he was not diffcuilt, but the fight took too long and it was annoying. Lets say you've spent 8+min just to get to last phase and then wipe, its annoying.

  12. #372
    Well whatever happens, it was going to be either "Too easy or too hard" for mmo-whiners. So yeah keep this thread rolling till you never find no answer to the question you weren't even asking as usual.

  13. #373
    Deleted
    I see no problem with Argus being an easy boss in heroic. I get the feeling the fight is meant to be just a "spectacular finale" for Legion, and it is. The visuals during the ecounter and how the fight plays out were simply amazing.

    Also, I don't get what problem this poses for heroic guilds. I mean, REAL heroic guilds will have their hands full with Varimathras, Coven and Aggramar before even reaching Argus.

  14. #374
    The Lightbringer Radio's Avatar
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    Putting aside the discussion around how easy heroic should be or not, Argus is still off in terms of the difficulty curve of the instance. He's noticably easier than at least a few of the bosses that precede him.

  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    Putting aside the discussion around how easy heroic should be or not, Argus is still off in terms of the difficulty curve of the instance. He's noticably easier than at least a few of the bosses that precede him.
    But the fight looks cool

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    Putting aside the discussion around how easy heroic should be or not, Argus is still off in terms of the difficulty curve of the instance. He's noticably easier than at least a few of the bosses that precede him.
    Kin'garoth and Coven were the only ones my guild had any issues with in the raid.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    Putting aside the discussion around how easy heroic should be or not, Argus is still off in terms of the difficulty curve of the instance. He's noticably easier than at least a few of the bosses that precede him.
    And it's the biggest issue. I found Heroic a bit easy overall compared to previous iterations but don't think it's a huge problem. Argus's difficulty makes no sense when you consider his placement in the raid. Hell, up until Ph4 Portal Keeper has more dangerous mechanic than him and you can fight her as the second boss if so you wish. Wonky difficulty curves are one thing (Hello HFC) but an unsatisfying endboss is quite another, especially when lore-wise Argus is pretty much the strongest entity we'll ever fight, at least for a good long while.

    And the fact that the visuals are awesome only adds to my disappointment of how easily such a visually stunning boss is.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    Putting aside the discussion around how easy heroic should be or not, Argus is still off in terms of the difficulty curve of the instance. He's noticably easier than at least a few of the bosses that precede him.
    That only means that prior bosses are overtuned, not Argus is easy.

    Personally Coven was hardest, lots of one shot mechanics, overlaps, unavoidable damage, too much RNG and so on...
    Last edited by TOM_RUS; 2017-12-04 at 03:44 PM.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's easy to see you are wrong about the numbers. Notice I said "first week".

    https://www.wowprogress.com/encounter/kil-jaeden-heroic

    https://www.wowprogress.com/encounte.../next/61#first

    We do have another day or so to go, but the difference is not earth shattering. Nor have you made any good case that the difference is a bad thing.

    Perhaps you are afraid that Blizzard is coming around to the (to my mind, correct) opinion that difficult raid content isn't any good for the commercial performance of the game? Better slowly and late than never, I guess.
    Sigh..
    First week = First reset. What you're showing is in the 2nd reset already. I thought you could infer as much from me specifying a lower number that falls within the ~24 hours before where you decided to land.

    As for your mind/opinion, I have no aspiration whatsoever to attempt to change it, I'm merely stating the facts. You are right however that I'd much rather see WoW continue having challenging content as its endgame, same as it has had in every iteration thus far. But that's not the topic you chose to address, really. Had it been, I wouldn't have replied to you.

    edit:
    To reaffirm and reiterate, the issue isn't whether the instance is difficult for me, or not. I cleared normal and heroic on two chars, in runs including socials and friends, and killed Heroic Argus a few more times for 'em phat goldz, I can count the total number of wipes on one hand. My issue is more how the instance's current difficulty is going to affect the general raiding population. I'll be personally bothered if Mythic is tuned similarly, but I'm not quick to assume that it would be. People's insistence on these forums to refuse to read and address messages in their full never seizes to confuse me.

    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    No it's not. He did show exactly where week one kills end. 1245 is last week one kill.
    Yes, the slew of US guilds if you go a bit back are a mere coincidence and we best just include them 'cause the reset hadn't occured in EU yet. Wonderful.

    Carry on.
    Last edited by Ipsissimus; 2017-12-04 at 03:51 PM.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Wada View Post
    Just because you could solotank a boss doesn't trivialise the fight. That was the result of tanks being OP damage dealers in Mists. And we are not talking about Mythic here, ofc Mythic is gonna be crisp. It always is, they spent way too much time overtuning Mythic, and they rarely focus on Heroic. But they should realise that Mythic is indeed only accesed by a small portion of the raiders, when Heroic is the staple endgame for casual raiding. And casual raiders are the majority.
    I don't think that is true. My second-hand understanding (from talking to a friend who's friend is on the dev team) is that H is undertuned because the internal testing team was complaining that Heroic was too hard. So, they turned it down from what is what going to be.
    It's "should have" and "could have." When a native English speaker uses of in place of have, he or she looks ignorant.

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