Is Firearms Ownership in the US becoming a Cult?

[Verbatim]

Wouldn't call it a cult as such, no. Wouldn't call it particularly intelligent either, but I suppose that's where cultural differences come into play.

[shadowmouse]

Which would not exist if it was not for the Constitutional right to keep and bare arms. Right?

At least quote the language you revere correctly. Bare arms come with short sleeves or tank tops. Bear arms can sometimes be found north of bear asses, but "bear" is to carry something.

I'm guessing that you want to confirm the Second Amendment allows people to protect themselves. Yep. That is not, and should not be, license to stir false fears.

1-3. Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense

We use epidemiological theory to explain why the “false positive” problem for rare events can lead to large overestimates of the incidence of rare diseases or rare phenomena such as self-defense gun use. We then try to validate the claims of many millions of annual self-defense uses against available evidence. We find that the claim of many millions of annual self-defense gun uses by American citizens is invalid.

4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments, and are both socially undesirable and illegal

We analyzed data from two national random-digit-dial surveys conducted under the auspices of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Criminal court judges who read the self-reported accounts of the purported self-defense gun use rated a majority as being illegal, even assuming that the respondent had a permit to own and to carry a gun, and that the respondent had described the event honestly from his own perspective.

6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime

Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey conducted under the direction of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, we investigated how and when guns are used in the home. We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.

8. Criminals who are shot are typically the victims of crime

Using data from a survey of detainees in a Washington D.C. jail, we worked with a prison physician to investigate the circumstances of gunshot wounds to these criminals.

We found that one in four of these detainees had been wounded, in events that appear unrelated to their incarceration. Most were shot when they were victims of robberies, assaults and crossfires. Virtually none report being wounded by a “law-abiding citizen.”

9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law-abiding citizens

Using data from surveys of detainees in six jails from around the nation, we worked with a prison physician to determine whether criminals seek hospital medical care when they are shot. Criminals almost always go to the hospital when they are shot. To believe fully the claims of millions of self-defense gun uses each year would mean believing that decent law-abiding citizens shot hundreds of thousands of criminals. But the data from emergency departments belie this claim, unless hundreds of thousands of wounded criminals are afraid to seek medical care. But virtually all criminals who have been shot went to the hospital, and can describe in detail what happened there.

11. Self-defense gun use is rare and not more effective at preventing injury than other protective actions

Victims use guns in less than 1% of contact crimes, and women never use guns to protect themselves against sexual assault (in more than 300 cases). Victims using a gun were no less likely to be injured after taking protective action than victims using other forms of protective action. Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that self-defense gun use is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss.

Source: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/f...nse-gun-use-2/

Some people, sometime, may have a need for self defense. They should, however, have a right to assess that need on the basis of unbiased facts, They should make a reasonable and informed decision, and that decision should take into account the dangers that having a firearm in the house will present.

[tankbug]

Are there gun owner enthusiast? Of course
Does that make them a cult? No

I would call mac users a cult before I would call gun owners a cult

I don't know if the NRA are serious when they say "...from my cold, dead hands", but is so, they are more fanatical about it than macaddicts.
I do think that people that would kill as many people as necessary to be able to hold on to their weapons are insane, like those in a cult.
But also, I don't think most Americans have that kind of fanatical devotion to it.

[a1derful1]

It's not making up data, it's just inference from correlation of other questions in the questionnaire. Your distrust of standard medical questions just shows your own misinformed opinion on science, facts, and statistics.

Keep telling yourself that.

If she isn't subjected to anything, why were you there during a medical questionnaire for her? Did you need to be there just in case the questions became too liberal or that she would of came out a flaming feminazi?

Because she asked me to be there, just as she wants to be there for my doctor visits, in case I forget something. I don't know what kind of relationships you've been in, but we don't keep anything from each other. She has full access to anything of mine, any time. I don't normally try to meddle in her affairs, but, if she wants me to be involved, then I will be, because that's what a healthy marriage is all about. She immigrated to the states from China in her mid teens, then lived in Chicago and got her citizenship and a bachelors degree, then moved in with me in Texas around her mid 20's. She had plenty of time to figure out who she is and I'm happy to say that we are two peas in a pod. We both agree that it's no one's business, if we have guns in the house, as some things should remain private.

It was ranked one of the lowest electoral college tallies in US history. Again, your own opinion here is has been misinformed by biased sources that want to keep people like yourself deluded.

Except you're the one that didn't read what I wrote, so, yeah, I must be deluded. I said biggest upset, not biggest win. Everything was in Hillary's favor and, surprisingly to most out of touch people, she was upset by Trump.

It isn't profiling, you are the one sharing your apprehension towards inanimate objects and college-level mathematics. This type of behavior was injected into you by a biased source and medium to ensure you don't think critically.

Just another way of using semantics to suit your agenda. If cops used data and statistics to stop a black guy in a hoodie in a known gang and drug selling area, they'd be labeled for profiling and racism. It's ok. You can call it whatever you want.

But that's the thing, you have already been primed to believe what you are saying is independent, however the behaviors and words you are espousing show the exact opposite.

And you're any different? I hear a pot calling the kettle black.

[Deleted]

The cult of Harlon Carter.

The US needs to choose either get rid of poverty or get rid of guns. Otherwise enjoy the death toll they mix badly.

[Mafic]

In farming communities throughout the US ownership of guns are viewed as tools, but also prized family possessions passed onto the next generation. Very similar to how it is viewed in Europe. Most of the gun culture I see that is over the top tends to be in the southern US. Not in the farming communities of Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Washington, Utah. etc. Not on the West coast or East coast of US. Not in Minnesota, Dakotas, Michigan, etc.

I think the reason gun culture is so strong in the south of the US is because of the deep resentment of the current US government and why the Confederacy is still honored in some parts of the south. Just my two cents.

[Deleted]

Why make so many threads bitching that Americans have them then?

I wasn't aware I made this thread or supported a ban. The US has a serious issue and whenever it's pointed out certain Americans suddenly handwave it away and deflect the issue (which you're doing now) - Regulations and addressing your toxic gun culture needs addressing that is simply a fact

[Dystemper]

Thanks for at least taking a shot at it. But a fire extinguisher puts out fires, we can document that fires happen and are put out with fire extinguishers, and owning a fire extinguisher does not increase risk of harm (OK, somebody will drop it on their foot but the risk is smaller than the gain). Studies like the Harvard study would seem to show that guns don't do the same. There are bad people, they may well come into your home. They will generally do it when you are not home and because you left them a path. Every day carry did nothing.

Nobody is forced to buy a gun, but people are being sold a bill of goods. It isn't going to protect them from vague bad people, but it will expose them to increased risks at home. Some of the statistics used to bolster the perception that guns provide defense appear to have been exaggerated as well.

Having sharp objects in the home increases risk of harm. Having electricity in the home increases risk of harm. Same with water. Driving a car greatly increases your risk of harm.
Home invasions are a very real thing. So are robberies, muggings and random acts of murder. You started off saying this was not a gun control thread, but you have obviously turned it into one.

Would you rather have the tool to properly defend yourself and your family should the need arise, or hope for the best? Everything is a risk in life. anything can cause harm. No one is being sold a bill of goods. Except from the anti gun crowd. The statistics used to bolster the narative that guns cauuse more harm then good seem to be completely exaggerated or out right lies.

[Mafic]

I wasn't aware I made this thread or supported a ban. The US has a serious issue and whenever it's pointed out certain Americans suddenly handwave it away and deflect the issue (which you're doing now) - Regulations and addressing your toxic gun culture needs addressing that is simply a fact

The problem is that the US is very large so what you think is a toxic gun culture it doesn't resonate with someone living in California, Michigan, Utah, New York, etc. Since I live in the south of the US I do see a strong gun culture which is cult like. But again with so many transplants coming into the south the gun culture isn't as strong as it used to be.

Gun culture is a phenomena because US citizens that have given up on the US government. That is the nutshell explanation and driving force behind the support of the Confederacy.

[lewdest]

I wasn't aware I made this thread or supported a ban. The US has a serious issue and whenever it's pointed out certain Americans suddenly handwave it away and deflect the issue (which you're doing now) - Regulations and addressing your toxic gun culture needs addressing that is simply a fact

Woah... criminals commit crimes... truly a new concept. Only reason to regulate guns is if there's a large amount of accidents, and in that case the only form of regulation should be safety classes. I've never read something dumber than "toxic gun culture" in my life, as the only people with a gun and gang related culture are people of unspecified races.

[a1derful1]

Regulations and addressing your toxic gun culture needs addressing that is simply a fact

Until we can shoot a gun from the states and hit a person in Briton with the bullet, it's really none of your business though.

[Sliske]

I think hatred of guns is becoming a cult. We have good examples of fanatical hatred of faceless boogeymen over the years - commies, neo nazis, white supremacists, gays, wind and solar energy, vaccines.. basically anything can be turned into a boogeyman, and guns right now are definitely one.

The left, for whatever reason, is terrified of guns.

The reasons they give are gibberish and the solutions they give are nonsense:

Reason 1 - Guns kill people.

So do forks. So do bricks. Do you seriously think there was never a murder before guns?

Reason 2 - Guns kill people en masse

So do cars, so do bombs, so do groups of people with knives. Do you seriously think there was never a mass murderer before guns?

"Solution" 1 - Ban guns

Murder is already illegal, banning guns is as stupid as suggesting 'banning murder' would result in a society without murder. Please think critically.

"Solution" 2 - Stricter background checks

This does absolutely nothing to solve cases where the gun was illegally owned, stolen or the owner simply went crazy and shot someone.

So, no I don't think gun ownership has become a cult. I think the frothing hatred of guns and their owners has become a cult. If you cannot give a logical reason for hating guns and their owners, you are a man child throwing a tantrum, nothing more. You have as much credibility as the Right giving 'reasons' why gays are bad people. Its utter fucking nonsense and they know it. They personally hated gays because they viewed them as sub human and people that chimp out over guns hate gun owners and guns because they view them as if they are sub humans that can't handle them.

Just fuck off and mind your own business.

[Deleted]

Woah... criminals commit crimes... truly a new concept. Only reason to regulate guns is if there's a large amount of accidents, and in that case the only form of regulation should be safety classes. I've never read something dumber than "toxic gun culture" in my life, as the only people with a gun and gang related culture are people of unspecified races.

So the NRA doesn't exist ok

Regulations e.g. Mentally ill or ex-cons not having legal firearms and a limit on the number

- - - Updated - - -

Until we can shoot a gun from the states and hit a person in Briton with the bullet, it's really none of your business though.

You're right, you're welcome to continue holding onto those statistics... I just have empathy for others but your land, your mess, your reputation

[A dot Ham]

Two things first. This isn't meant as a gun control discussion, we have a thread for that. This isn't meant for a discussion of religion, that goes into forbidden topics. Since this is intended to question a particular issue in American culture, can we try to avoid just flat out nation bashing too?

Apologies to the two or three people I've recently discussed guns with, this isn't intended as a poke at any of you and I realize it will come across as such. Again, my apologies this is just something that has been bothering me recently and today I decided to put it out for discussion.

I'm American. I grew up around guns. My father had guns, but they were shotguns and rifles for hunting. I was taught to shoot, including basic safety, before I could ride a bike or skate. Today it seems I was really young (no older than six), but that was presented as just one of the things one did. Guns were tools, and to a lesser degree sport, but what strikes me now is that they weren't really for home protection other than keeping a farm clear of vermin.

Now, I feel completely out of touch with the way I hear people talk about their firearms. I was happy to see someone mention in a thread that they bagged some turkeys, and they ate them -- that was the kind of thing I could understand. I don't know when it happened, but I think it paralleled the rise of "wars" on ideas that could never sit down at a table and sign a surrender. Somewhere along the way, we became afraid of shadows, and guns were the talisman that would keep them at bay. I bought into it too, in my own way, I just didn't fixate on guns.

I notice it now that I'm in China. I've spent years dialing back the defensive habits I built up. Home security for me today isn't having a house build in 1914, with a door that is mainly etched glass but being comfortable that I am adequately trained and armed. Home security is that I have solid walls, good locks, and the front door is steel. I suppose 2.1's yappy little poodle counts as extra security -- around 0400 I'll know the milk was delivered because she'll go to the door and warn of strangers. Now, when I go out the door I actually try to make sure I'm not actively armed unless there is a good reason, but at one time that wasn't the case.

I read posts that talk of shotguns beside the bed, guns with silencers on the nightstand and all the rest. I wonder what the hell happened. And that's when I find myself asking, is it because firearms ownership became a cult? The NRA and its speakers are the charismatic leader figures. Crime, terrorism, even the idea that our own government might go the wrong way -- those are the ever present and yet intangible threat. The faithful speak a particular way. There is disloyal speech.

Are enough of the factors there that at some point fear will cross the line into cult behavior?

I think an interesting discussion around gun culture can still be salvaged from your post... however the body of your post forces me to conclude that is nothing more than click bait, or a veiled attempt at flaming.

Your post provides no evidence, and really makes no argument at all comparing gun ownership to cult behavior. What specifically makes you think that owning a gun equates to cult mentality? You should probably start by familiarizing yourself with the basic definition of the word "cult" and make sure you understand that, and then craft a logical argument that makes gun owners fit the build.

[Deleted]

I think hatred of guns is becoming a cult. We have good examples of fanatical hatred of faceless boogeymen over the years - commies, neo nazis, white supremacists, gays, wind and solar energy, vaccines.. basically anything can be turned into a boogeyman, and guns right now are definitely one.

The left, for whatever reason, is terrified of guns.

The reasons they give are gibberish and the solutions they give are nonsense:

Reason 1 - Guns kill people.

So do forks. So do bricks. Do you seriously think there was never a murder before guns?

Reason 2 - Guns kill people en masse

So do cars, so do bombs, so do groups of people with knives. Do you seriously think there was never a mass murderer before guns?

"Solution" 1 - Ban guns

Murder is already illegal, banning guns is as stupid as suggesting 'banning murder' would result in a society without murder. Please think critically.

"Solution" 2 - Stricter background checks

This does absolutely nothing to solve cases where the gun was illegally owned, stolen or the owner simply went crazy and shot someone.

So, no I don't think gun ownership has become a cult. I think the frothing hatred of guns and their owners has become a cult. If you cannot give a logical reason for hating guns and their owners, you are a man child throwing a tantrum, nothing more. You have as much credibility as the Right giving 'reasons' why gays are bad people. Its utter fucking nonsense and they know it. They personally hated gays because they viewed them as sub human and people that chimp out over guns hate gun owners and guns because they view them as if they are sub humans that can't handle them.

Just fuck off and mind your own business.

So the statistics are all liberal propaganda?

[Daelak]

Keep telling yourself that.

Oh right, so now all medical questionnaires and political polling are some grand conspiracy the persists by fabricating all data?

Because she asked me to be there, just as she wants to be there for my doctor visits, in case I forget something. I don't know what kind of relationships you've been in, but we don't keep anything from each other. She has full access to anything of mine, any time. I don't normally try to meddle in her affairs, but, if she wants me to be involved, then I will be, because that's what a healthy marriage is all about. She immigrated to the states from China in her mid teens, then lived in Chicago and got her citizenship and a bachelors degree, then moved in with me in Texas around her mid 20's. She had plenty of time to figure out who she is and I'm happy to say that we are two peas in a pod. We both agree that it's no one's business, if we have guns in the house, as some things should remain private.

And I am sure she was the one that asked why the questionnaire had asked about firearms in the house. She's trying to placate you because she's new to the country and doesn't want you to become upset if she questioned your reasoning.

Except you're the one that didn't read what I wrote, so, yeah, I must be deluded. I said biggest upset, not biggest win. Everything was in Hillary's favor and, surprisingly to most out of touch people, she was upset by Trump.

What's your definition of upset if not for the objective amount of electoral votes tallied? Your feelings?

Just another way of using semantics to suit your agenda. If cops used data and statistics to stop a black guy in a hoodie in a known gang and drug selling area, they'd be labeled for profiling and racism. It's ok. You can call it whatever you want.

It isn't semantics, just your aversion to facts and data that don't comport with the manufactured worldview you have been deluded into. The irony in your example is that there is clear evidence from DOJ data that shows the racial profiling that occurs by police officers which are reprimanded by the DOJ.

And you're any different? I hear a pot calling the kettle black.

Yes, I don't have a convulsive aversion to medical questionnaires and the entire field of statistics, because of some boogeyman.

- - - Updated - - -

In farming communities throughout the US ownership of guns are viewed as tools, but also prized family possessions passed onto the next generation. Very similar to how it is viewed in Europe. Most of the gun culture I see that is over the top tends to be in the southern US. Not in the farming communities of Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Washington, Utah. etc. Not on the West coast or East coast of US. Not in Minnesota, Dakotas, Michigan, etc.

I think the reason gun culture is so strong in the south of the US is because of the deep resentment of the current US government and why the Confederacy is still honored in some parts of the south. Just my two cents.

That's true, that resentment has been incubated in the south for well over a century. It's a good blanket issue whenever any type of reform that would help the majority of the population in the south. Like medicare expansion.

[shadowmouse]

Having sharp objects in the home increases risk of harm. Having electricity in the home increases risk of harm. Same with water. Driving a car greatly increases your risk of harm.
Home invasions are a very real thing. So are robberies, muggings and random acts of murder. You started off saying this was not a gun control thread, but you have obviously turned it into one.

No, as usual Ghostpanther has. I will offer you the same invitation, quote me advocating gun control!

Home invasions happen. When you aren't home. Usually because you left a path open. As for the rest, I've already posted multiple statistics that show those things are not things that guns are particularly helpful for. The Harvard study specifically addresses many of the claims in that farce sheet you copied.

Hell, homes increase the danger you'll get hurt in a home, they sometimes burn down around our ears. We make all kinds of choices, but we generally try to make informed choices based on accurate information.

Basic fact checking. I look at things like peer reviewed articles or government crime statistics, those seem to consistently show that guns do present more danger than they do to prevent danger. Among those things, FBI data. If you're going to tell me the FBI is cooking statistics to take away people's guns, please offer solid proof.

[RicardoZ]

It might be that a lot of rural America in the last 30 years has become much more urbanized against its will, so people feel more threatened, hence the shift to thinking of guns as self-defense tools instead of for sports and hunting.

In an urban environment, they've always been thought of that way. As urbana sprawls into areas that were previously rural, so spreads its approach to gun ownership.

Just a quick theory.

[lewdest]

So the NRA doesn't exist ok

Regulations e.g. Mentally ill or ex-cons not having legal firearms and a limit on the number.

I don't know anything about the NRA, have they committed a lot of crimes with firearms or something? Are they a terrorist group?

The problems with your regulations are:
How do you define mentally ill? People had a huge fit over Trump allowing "mentally ill" people back into the military, without considering that "mentally ill" means your child that had ADHD at age 10 would never be allowed to join the military. Also, who defines mentally ill? I consider people that want general reassignment as mentally ill, as it's a form of body dysmorphic disorder (BDD), are they mentally ill under this law?

Ex-cons already have a hard enough time finding work after being in prison, but you want them to be unable to protect themselves or have a collection of antiques? It's also another vague blanket term, and most people on probation are already not allowed to own firearms.

You also don't understand how huge the United States is and compare it to your tiny island. The expenses it would take to put all this into action and control these vague laws would be massive.

[Sliske]

So the statistics are all liberal propaganda?

link your statistics and then tell me the logical reasons that these give to hate guns and or their owners and i'll tell you why you're an idiot.