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  1. #1
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    2 National Monuments Gutted

    The boundary of Bears Ears National Monument, a 1.35 million-acre landscape named after a pair of buttes and home to thousands of Native American archeological and cultural sites, will shrink by about 85 percent. The 1.87 million-acre Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument, the largest land national monument in the country, will be cut roughly in half. I love hiking and climbing in those spots. Real shame to see them being reduced by so much.

    Mostly feels like another big giveaway to the Donor ClassTM


    Trump Orders Largest National Monument Reduction In U.S. History

    On a visit to Utah on Monday, President Trump announced his proclamations dramatically shrinking the size of the state's two massive national monuments, Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante. Taken together, Trump's orders mark the largest reversal of national monument protections in U.S. history.

  2. #2
    Over 9000! Santti's Avatar
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    Did Obama have anything to do with either of the monuments by any chance?

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    The Lightbringer Nathreim's Avatar
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    What a load of shit. All he did was give control of the land back to the State reversing what Obama did.

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    Brewmaster SunspotAnims's Avatar
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    Given its timing, would it be safe to assume that this decision was made as a distraction?

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    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Did Obama have anything to do with either of the monuments by any chance?
    Obama set aside Bears Ears at the end of his term. Bill Clinton set aside GSE in the mid 90's.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Did Obama have anything to do with either of the monuments by any chance?
    What do you think?

    Guess who was responsible for the other one?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

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    The Undying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker76 View Post
    Obama set aside Bears Ears at the end of his term. Bill Clinton set aside GSE in the mid 90's.
    Any good reason why anyone would want those positions reversed? I mean, I know Trump is doing it because his legislative agenda pretty much is a list of Obama's accomplishments with a big NOPE written through them.

    But seriously - why?

  8. #8
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    Is the land around those two places worth even worth anything, like is there resources or agricultural land that is available?

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Any good reason why anyone would want those positions reversed? I mean, I know Trump is doing it because his legislative agenda pretty much is a list of Obama's accomplishments with a big NOPE written through them.

    But seriously - why?
    The restriction prevented hunting and grazing and restricted hiking areas to only a select paths instead of where ever you want.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Did Obama have anything to do with either of the monuments by any chance?
    Apparently yes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Reaver View Post
    Given its timing, would it be safe to assume that this decision was made as a distraction?
    That would require more thought than "Must reverse everything Obama did.", thus it is unlikely.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemposs View Post
    Is the land around those two places worth even worth anything, like is there resources or agricultural land that is available?
    Land is always worth something. In the case of bear ears it's uranium. Escalante has been estimated at around 300billion in mineral wealth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Land is always worth something. In the case of bear ears it's uranium. Escalante has been estimated at around 300billion in mineral wealth.
    Well of course land has worth, I was more intrigued in if it was a lot (which it seems to be with minerals), or if it was just agriculture and grazing which tends to be somewhat low.

  13. #13
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
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    Trump has done a lot of terrible stuff, but this one doesn't bother me much. He basically stripped a lot of the land off the edges of these national monuments, which isn't significantly different then the surrounding land. This frees the land up for agriculture and natural resource development.

    His reasons for doing it are probably terrible, specifically the energy lobby and the "Obama did it, so it must be bad" excuse. However I don't think the actual action is that awful, I am not really in favor of such huge areas of land being declared off limits for any future development. For the record I am all in favor of the National Park service, but Utah already had an incredible amount of park land.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    The restriction prevented hunting and grazing and restricted hiking areas to only a select paths instead of where ever you want.
    So only sensible restrictions.

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    The left cares about national monuments all the sudden? Are they not a symbol of the White Male patriarchy?

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    The Lightbringer Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    So only sensible restrictions.
    Nothing about those restrictions is sensible.

    Hunting is needed to keep deer populations in check. Grazing cattle is no different than the Buffalo that once gazed the lands in much much larger numbers. Tourism helps to protect these lands restricting it is not a positive.

  17. #17
    Bloodsail Admiral Kalador's Avatar
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    I had he chance to spend couples of days in Grand staircaise-escalente national monument when I visited Utah 2 years ago... This place was one of the most beautiful place I ever visited. It also benefit a lot from being less known then other national park in southern Utah like Bryce or Zion...

    It's alwayse hard to judge decision like that as there is a lot of pros and cons to massive protected land and most of the time not being protected doesn't mean it will be transformed in a giant parking lot. It alwayse seemed weird tho to revert protection and to shrink it by 50 to 85%.

  18. #18
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalador View Post
    I had he chance to spend couples of days in Grand staircaise-escalente national monument when I visited Utah 2 years ago... This place was one of the most beautiful place I ever visited. It also benefit a lot from being less known then other national park in southern Utah like Bryce or Zion...

    It's alwayse hard to judge decision like that as there is a lot of pros and cons to massive protected land and most of the time not being protected doesn't mean it will be transformed in a giant parking lot. It alwayse seemed weird tho to revert protection and to shrink it by 50 to 85%.
    I've been hiking the area for 30+ years. I dont miss the good 'ole days of seeing the mining setups and few drill pads. Especially almost getting run over by a trailer carrying excavators barreling down Hole in the Rock Road.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Land is always worth something. In the case of bear ears it's uranium. Escalante has been estimated at around 300billion in mineral wealth.
    In GSE there's coal and uranium plays. In the upper canyon you can smell asphalt burning and think someone's car is on fire. Really it's a coal seam that's burning, struck by lightning. According to local Navajo these seams have been smoldering for hundreds of years.

    Considering the commodity prices of coal or uranium, now is a great time to buy up leases... /s

  19. #19
    You say "gutted" like a bad thing. Most of the Natives on the reservations in those areas disagreed with it becoming a monument in the first place. Like most Utahans, we feel like the state has a better handle on our issues than someone from the east coast.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Nothing about those restrictions is sensible.

    Hunting is needed to keep deer populations in check. Grazing cattle is no different than the Buffalo that once gazed the lands in much much larger numbers. Tourism helps to protect these lands restricting it is not a positive.
    Buffalo didn't graze there. Cattle grazing basically destroys that ecosystem because the grass that grows there is almost nutritionally useless so they eat a lot of it, and it takes years to grow back after it's left open to erosion after the grazing if it ever does. Why make stupid comments like this?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker76 View Post
    In GSE there's coal and uranium plays. In the upper canyon you can smell asphalt burning and think someone's car is on fire. Really it's a coal seam that's burning, struck by lightning. According to local Navajo these seams have been smoldering for hundreds of years.

    Considering the commodity prices of coal or uranium, now is a great time to buy up leases... /s
    I'm just providing motive. It's a sellout to mining companies. Whether you think that's bad or not depends on the person. Pretty sure I've been clear where I stand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

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