How Can She Get Away With It?

[Sigxy]

Sylvannas should never have been Warchief, hell she should never have been in the Horde. She doesn't care about them at all, the only time we see her give a damn is now which is a 100% character flip from just casually desecrating horde fallen by trying to raise them as undead in SoO - she would have done it had Lor'themar not intervened. She has always seen the Horde merely as a tool and only cares about her survival. She needs to die.

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I don't understand where all this resentment comes from towards WoW - I've always loved the endings to every expansion personally

Pretty much agree to this whole thing. Except that I do think that the ending to MoP was meh. '.'

[Deleted]

Pretty much agree to this whole thing. Except that I do think that the ending to MoP was meh. '.'

I found the end more or less OK. It's the inbetween, which made me quit the game for a while. Like, finishing the Jade Forest storyline with my BE mage, who developed a strong attachment to the Pandaren and their philosophy, helping the Celestials, contributing to the construction of the new Jade Statue - only to see everything blown to dust by the fucking 100-testosterone-0-brain assholes on both sides. If anything, a mana bomb should have been used there, or better 2 smaller mana bombs, to remove these troops before they do more harm than good.

Yes, Dr. Manhattan and Ozymandias are my favorite characters in "Watchmen".

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I actually agree with you, I wish they made orcs the vile beasts they actually where in warcraft 1.

But then you would get a totally different game. Look at LOTRO. Or Warhammer.

[Sigxy]

I actually agree with you, I wish they made orcs the vile beasts they actually where in warcraft 1.

Red eyed orcs when?

I found the end more or less OK. It's the inbetween, which made me quit the game for a while. Like, finishing the Jade Forest storyline with my BE mage, who developed a strong attachment to the Pandaren and their philosophy, helping the Celestials, contributing to the construction of the new Jade Statue - only to see everything blown to dust by the fucking 100-testosterone-0-brain assholes on both sides. If anything, a mana bomb should have been used there, or better 2 smaller mana bombs, to remove these troops before they do more harm than good.

Yes, Dr. Manhattan and Ozymandias are my favorite characters in "Watchmen".

I just find it absolutely dumb in these stories when they just don't axe off people who clearly don't need a trial after all they've done and you can't possibly deny they didn't do it. x_x

[Razion]

Has Blizzard ever written this way? Look at the amount of back-and-forth during the Pandaria campaign, for example. The Horde and Alliance sent expeditions there, while heading out in full force. Then their armies bounced around all three continents.

Aside from their disregard for distances, portals and the like do exist. Sure you can't march an army through them, but you can relay information.

Finally, what you describe really isn't even an ending to the war. You're just stating that it would take a significant amount of time to wage, thus granting a sense of normalcy to it in the minds of those who are civilians.

Well, precisely. Shaping the minds of the common people is probably how the war would eventually end in the case of an occupation or domination type victory. Leaders like Baine or Anduin as well would take steps to stop production of war weapons and things like transport vessels. Condemning war, and ordering all troops to stand down.

[Currently Retired]

The difference between people who cared about Garrosh being Warchief and Sylvanas being Warchief is huge. Sylvanas has a huge player fan base behind her - I'm sure most like her because of the story she drags on since Warcraft 3. Garrosh is a random orc who ended up being the son of Grommash and went evil style, which I don't really understand why they went with that path for him.

I personally wouldn't like seeing her die even if I am not a fanboy, because there are already so few characters that still exist since WC3.

[OIS]

@Anonymouslyyours
I wouldn't even mind being the really dark gray faction, if it meant we got to drop useless characters like Baine. Unfortunately, we get characters like Garrosh, see them take the Horde in a great direction, and watch it be taken all away from us while we're forced temporarily back to "Da Horde be a family bruddamon!" WoD was salt in the wound, considering the Iron Horde was everything our Horde should be.

Except that the Iron Horde was pathetic. I wouldn't mind us being the Iron Horde who can get shit done though.

[Deleted]

As a BE player I can only say this: Pretty monsters are still monsters. Just take a look at all the Chaos elves you have in Warhammer. Or the Unseelie Sidhe in the Changeling RPG. Or the Toreador vampires.

Ooooh, someone speaks MY language here Kudos to you

And I didn't state that "beautiful can be ugly", those examples you quoted were indeed pertinent, but I'm more complaining that we don't have the "ugly can be beautiful" counterpart anymore, just because a part of Blizz's community are too young to be interested in this kind of story. That's why I'm kinda sad that we will now have FOUR elven races to choose from when creating our characters, instead of more "interesting" races.. Dare I say even pandas were a more original choice..; What about Ogres, Vrykuls, Tuskarr, etc... ?

To sum it up, I'm kinda sad WoW becomes more and more like our IRL society where how you look and how much noise you can make is more important than what's deep within..

[Wildberry]

To be fair, Saurfang DID kinda froth at the mouth in an orcish frenzy the moment the lich queen yelled "for the whored!". Do not recall the others doing that with Garrosh...

Your reading far too much into a cinematic. One that's intended to build hype. Horde leaders fighting alongside Garrosh aren't shown in any comparable mediums. The best bet is to look at characterization.

Oookay, seems we have to point this out to Horde players again...

Alliance players complained in Cata because we got absolutely trashed during the revamped leveling, I mean Camp Turajo was the only "victory"

Alliance players complained in MoP about Horde favouritism despite Horde and Alliance attacking Orgrimmar and killing Garrosh, because the civil war and rebellion developed Horde characters far more than it did Alliance.

Kind of like how you guys are complaining that Legion has given Alliance characters much more spotlight than it has Horde. It sucks.

Explain it how many ever times you like. You were wrong the first time you explained it, you'll be wrong the thousandth.

The Cataclysm world revamp simply evened out zone disparity. Is it really favoritism to fix something that was broken in the Alliance's favor? Of course not.

You're complaining about raiding the enemy's capital, because they had to take time to try and develop something resembling a proper replacement? Wow, that must've been so hard for you to endure. I mean, never mind the fact that Varian and Anduin saw plenty of development during MoP.

Alliance heroes go neutral in BC? Complain, never mind the fact that our guys are filling dungeons and raids. Horde gets some canonical victories? Complain, even though it just evened out zone disparity. Alliance canonically wins the war? Canon victories aren't good enough, anymore. Entire expansion focused around killing Horde heroes, while you guys get to relive your finest moments from the RTS? Oh man you guys have to suffer through killing Orcs!

You people do nothing other than whine about the most trivial of things. Winning isn't good enough, you need to win as hard as possible.

I wasn't aware we knew that. I couldn't find any leak indicating that. I thought that because they said BfA basically starts Right at the point of that cutscene that it implied the timeline was:

Sylvanas attacks Stormwind in the novel -> Anduin attacks Undercity in the cinematic -> Sylvanas attacks Teldrassil in the other cinematic.

Assuming Sylvanas assaults Stormwind because of her constant feud with Genn.

From the John Hight Interview:

Some of the imagery that you'll see is the scene is with Sylvanas standing in front Teldrassil on fire. Then with the opening cinematic, that event was right before the Alliance finally says, "Okay, we've had it" before they assault Lordaeron.

Well, precisely. Shaping the minds of the common people is probably how the war would eventually end in the case of an occupation or domination type victory. Leaders like Baine or Anduin as well would take steps to stop production of war weapons and things like transport vessels. Condemning war, and ordering all troops to stand down.

Baine isn't in a position to do that. Anduin doesn't have the political clout necessary to reel in Jaina, Genn and Tyrande. And no, "Shaping the minds of the common people" is not how something ends in an occupation or domination type victory. Do you even know what you're arguing at this point?

Yes, continents are large and wars would take a while to wage. That's literally never been the case in this setting though. Why would Blizzard suddenly start factoring time in now? You still haven't answered that. Beyond that, each faction establishing dominance over a single continent isn't domination or occupation in the sense of what I was referring to. Stormwind was destroyed and rendered entirely irrelevant in the First War. The Horde was destroyed and rendered entirely irrelevant after the Second War.

Kalimdor going to the Horde and Eastern Kingdoms going to the Alliance isn't that. The Horde and Alliance will both be fairly significant players at that stage. There's no reason for the war to end there, either.

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Except that the Iron Horde was pathetic. I wouldn't mind us being the Iron Horde who can get shit done though.

I'll be completely honest, I've never understood this complaint, with regard to the Iron Horde specifically. There's nothing really that separates the Iron Horde from other villains we've fought. I mean if the Scourge and the Legion had eradicated all life on Northrend and Argus respectively, I could see the angle, but that's not the case.

Developers are under the impression that we need to be questing for natives, and experiencing local civilizations. In the case of the Iron Horde, that means opening up the Dark Portal before they've established dominance over the entire continent.

The Dark Portal intro? Sure, we marched in, killed quite a few Orcs, etc. Haven't we done the same thing on the Burning Legion's Home Planet?

Blizzard is awful at portraying anything as being remotely threatening. Stories suffer due to gameplay, etc. I agree with all of those complaints, but I just can't figure out why the community suddenly, (and seemingly only) realized this with the Iron Horde.

[AcidicSyn]

Correction : we only have Saurfang left... And he'll probably die a la Nazgrim.


~snip~

No worries mate; my pals and I went ahead and brought Nazgrim back for ya!

[Syegfryed]

Remember that the Iron Horde were only orcs, real dumb ones who didn't know war at a large scale, mixed with a few goblins from our timeline in order to provide war machines..

well, tbf, they are dumb because of blizzard bad writing

Attack another world before yours is totally dominated was bullshit

[Darktbs]

No worries mate; my pals and I went ahead and brought Nazgrim back for ya!

Your post made me realize, that the Alliance probably saw that Stromgarde was empty, looked both sides and placed a Alliance banner on it.

All because us the ebon blade.

[Mehrunes]

Sylvannas should never have been Warchief, hell she should never have been in the Horde. She doesn't care about them at all, the only time we see her give a damn is now which is a 100% character flip from just casually desecrating horde fallen by trying to raise them as undead in SoO - she would have done it had Lor'themar not intervened. She has always seen the Horde merely as a tool and only cares about her survival. She needs to die.

Sylvanas already gave a damn about the Horde in Legion and before that in WotLK. And how is it unfeasible that she gets to care about them more now after becoming its leader than when she was doing her own thing unchecked? Also, Sylvanas merely offered another life for the fallen Blood Elves and when Lor'themar refused, she dropped the topic. And given how the interaction started with her offering it, Lor'themar not intervening would be tacit acceptance. So where's the problem?

I don't understand where all this resentment comes from towards WoW - I've always loved the endings to every expansion personally

Endings are like the worst aspects of each expansion, Blizzard can't wrap up things in a manner that doesn't vomit all over previous lore or just basic logic for shit.

Legion: Kerrilldank becomes TEH CHOSEN ONE even after Blizzard made a questline about him refusing his fate as (Light-infused) TEH CHOSEN ONE they alluded to since his book, effectively achieving nothing more than lampshading the shit out of the fact that Kerrilldank is the savior of the universe. Sargeras stabs the planet with enough force to cause 50 Cataclysms, the only thing he destroys is the shittiest zone in WoW that Blizzard couldn't even bother to update for Cata.
WoD: Draenor is united and no one questions Grom.
MoP: Pandaren suffered more than any other so we got the shittiest Warcraft book ever.
Cata: There's a fuckload of wrong with the ending, but for brevity's sake let's just go with the fact that Deathwing predicted the Aspects would use the Focusing Iris in order to make the Dragon Soul work against him even though Kalec came up with it on the spot 5 seconds before teleporting us to Eye of Eternity, yet he didn't bother teleporting the Iris into a volcano or wherever to ruin their plans.
WotLK: After getting hit with a spell from another continent made the Lich King lose control over undead, causing Forsaken to break free and after getting hit with a sword made the Lich King lose control over undead, causing the Ebon Blade to break free, for some inexplicable reason the Lich King dropping dead would lead to the Scourge becoming an even worse threat, somehow, rather than breaking free.
TBC: The only decent one, but primarily because everything that preceded it was unpolished and beyond vague.

[Aeula]

Sylvanas is a goner, the writing is on the wall with that one, more Alliance ‘fistpumping’ at the expense of the Horde.
Wouldn’t be surprised if they do away with factions at the end of this and have the Horde and Alliance merge into an Alliance-dominant Mega-faction to deal with the purple goo people from beyond! or whatever boring, lacklustre shite they’ve got planned as the next super villain. That’s if they don’t interrupt us for some joyless tentacle hentai midway through the expansion.

Now if Sylvanas wasn’t warchief and the Alliance was the initial aggressor... well that’d give me more hope for an interesting expansion filled with moral grey areas.

Bc is honestly the only expansion end that I had no problems with. Though I imagine anyone unfamiliar with the sunwell manga may be a bit lost.

TBC has probably one of the worst endings, those comic books were shite and the whole Liadrin ‘redemption’ arc, bringing back Kael’thas and killing him off again after corrupting him for no reason and then having that stupid sunwell spirit woman involved just completely butchered everything Blood Elves had going for them. Honestly if not for MoP and the Suramar questline/recruiting the Nightborne, the race would be pretty fucking lost lorewise and in terms of identity.

They put a hell of a lot of effort into introducing the blood elves and then let them and the rest of the expansion go to shite afterwards.

[OIS]

I'll be completely honest, I've never understood this complaint, with regard to the Iron Horde specifically. There's nothing really that separates the Iron Horde from other villains we've fought. I mean if the Scourge and the Legion had eradicated all life on Northrend and Argus respectively, I could see the angle, but that's not the case.

Developers are under the impression that we need to be questing for natives, and experiencing local civilizations. In the case of the Iron Horde, that means opening up the Dark Portal before they've established dominance over the entire continent.

The Dark Portal intro? Sure, we marched in, killed quite a few Orcs, etc. Haven't we done the same thing on the Burning Legion's Home Planet?

Blizzard is awful at portraying anything as being remotely threatening. Stories suffer due to gameplay, etc. I agree with all of those complaints, but I just can't figure out why the community suddenly, (and seemingly only) realized this with the Iron Horde.

I'm sure the same complaints were made during the expansions prior. I remember people complaining about Cataclysm lore for the same reasons. WoW villains suck, they don't impact the story as much as we want them to. But I think players are to blame for this too, if only for a small part- whenever something drastically changes in the game, people complain about it.

In regards to Iron Horde, I think it was overhyped, that's why. It was presented as a huge threat in the expansion website, short stories were released about it, a video series were made... All that bluster and when the expansion was released we crossed the Dark Portal(after a week or so due to servers being overloaded) and destroyed them, boom, just like that. I don't think other expansion villains were owned as bad as they did.

But I see your point.

[AcidicSyn]

Your post made me realize, that the Alliance probably saw that Stromgarde was empty, looked both sides and placed a Alliance banner on it.

All because us the ebon blade.

Yeah...the Ebon Blade have pissed in so many peoples cheerios throughout legion that it's really quite absurd to me how little everyone seems to care about it. It's like the Horde and Alliance are just going to ignore us right up until Bolvar flat out sends the scourge to join us in mopping them up, it's almost comical.

[Anonymouslyyours]

Yeah...the Ebon Blade have pissed in so many peoples cheerios throughout legion that it's really quite absurd to me how little everyone seems to care about it. It's like the Horde and Alliance are just going to ignore us right up until Bolvar flat out sends the scourge to join us in mopping them up, it's almost comical.

Considering Blizz's consistency with writing (or lack thereof), the Ebon Blade will probably see nothing happen to them. Then again, does the main story by any means even acknowledge anything that happened in any of the class campaigns? I dropped off from WoW when NH was still new and dropped my drive for the game while I was at it. I just couldn't deal with how they were handling the story, lore, and so on. I'm just in the audience with the popcorn watching the mess happen now.

[Magnagarde]

Many Horde fans would've killed her off a long time ago and if they could have voted on which racial leader they wanted dead throughout all this time - Cairne, Vol'jin, Garrosh and so on - most would've picked her. This was an extremely popular opinion in the early days of WoW and up untill they've started writing plotarmor for her and giving her more and more spotlight, while making the original Horde races take a beating as her character kept on thriving.

Over time, because she was the only Horde character written to win all the time and because the Horde became a congregation of blood elf, undead elf and undead human fans, she got more and more fans in the playerbase, but most of it is completely unrelated to the Horde.

She would be the one Horde leader whose loss would most likely not trigger Horde players that have been on the Horde flagship since the early days of Warcraft, but specifically elf/undead fans which play Horde not because of the faction itself, but because of elves and undead.

[cparle87]

I also can't see the Horde coming out of this in one piece as Sylvanas is basically now a different flavor of Garrosh.

When did Sylvanas send Horde members into danger without warning them, then tell them "Well, you should've known it would be dangerous, your fault"? When did she order the assassination of another Horde leader for speaking out against her? When did she declare all non-Forsaken members of the Horde to no longer be Horde and therefore subject to extermination? I must've missed it.

[Deleted]

Yeah, once again we Horde will get the shorter end of the stick, and once again Alliance will end up being the "goody two-shoes" faction who eventually wins in the end, because Blizzard obviously can't deal with the whinier part of their fanbase that would shitstorm their forums so hard if the Alliance ever loses anything again... I mean... Remember Theramore's destruction ? Remember Southshore ? (a place no one even went to anyway) Hell... remember how Blood Elves were horde only and Night Elves were Alliance only ?

So, for the end of BfA, I expect to see only elves, participating in topless dance contests ontop of the bodies of thousands of orcs, tauren and trolls, just because the kids wanted their "Lëgølàssssss" character to be the epitomy of coolness regardless of the Warcraft Universe's original (kinda) gritty and "ugly" tone...

This makes me so sad actually...

I would have loved to see somthing really original, like the Naaru ending up being manipulative laser windchimes, Greymane using the Alliance to pursue a personal vengence and dealing with Old God whispers, but we'll probably end up with Sylvanas being put as an antagonist (even when her reasons to seek how to prevent the Forsakens' inevitable downfall is 100% legit btw)

Pretty hillarious coming from the faction that got the win for most of the time and lost in the last war nothing but a Warchief nobodyl liked to begin with, while the Alliance suffered every single major loss.

[AcidicSyn]

Considering Blizz's consistency with writing (or lack thereof), the Ebon Blade will probably see nothing happen to them. Then again, does the main story by any means even acknowledge anything that happened in any of the class campaigns? I dropped off from WoW when NH was still new and dropped my drive for the game while I was at it. I just couldn't deal with how they were handling the story, lore, and so on. I'm just in the audience with the popcorn watching the mess happen now.

As near as I can tell; at least with the DK campaign; there is no reference to it at all. In fact, we don't even send anyone to Argus besides the Deathlord (player). Even our campaign had nothing to do with demons and instead; focused almost entirely on rebuilding the scour..ehh...the Ebon Blade presence on Azeroth by selecting and raising new Horsemen, repopulating Frostwyrms complete with a new Broodmother (replacing Sindy basically). Hell, when we fail to take Tirions corpse from the Silver Hand and resurrect Darion again as a Horsemen; it's implied that Bolvar had intended for this to be an acceptable outcome all along. Speculation is that he needed the Horsemen to be someone who was raised by the Deathlord specifically, using the power that was given to the player by Bolvar at the start of the campaign. Otherwise, he could simply have made Darion the 4th Horsemen from the beginning. Hell, Bolvar flat out tells you, multiple times, throughout the campaign that if you die doing whatever errands he's sent you on that he has every intention of taking Archerus and the Ebon Blade for himself to use as he sees fit. Implying that the player is really the only thing maintaining the EBs status as the Lich Kings jailers.