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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    Lemme explain to you just how easy it was as a tank to determine stats.

    Step 1. Look at your parry , dodge and block chance
    Step 2. Look at your defense
    Step 3. Add all of these totals up
    Step 4. Add on the base miss chance (i believe it was 5%)

    If they add up to 103%, you are done. Everything after that is just extra fluff, like crit capping on a holy paladin.
    Well, they never will add up to 103% by themselves. There was of course a distinct cap where you would be crit immune at 440 defense, which required 140 defense from gear, 130 if specced in Anticipation, but for most of vanilla, going defcap was an active choice you made since not all gear combos you needed to have would provide enough defense, so either you ran with your defcap set or you ran with some other type of set, maybe resistance or threat. Most tank epics would have somewhere between 5-7 defense on them each (so for example if you had pieces with 7 defense in each of the 17 possible equipment slots you'd still only reach 119 extra defense from gear). But just getting defcapped didn't mean you could avoid crushing blows, which is what the 103% total avoidance is supposed to do. However, there's no way to reach that avoidance from just stats on gear. The defense itself would not be part of the 103% equation, but rather the avoidance that each point of defense provided (a small amount of dodge and parry for each point of defense, so defense aquired beyond the 440 crit immune cap would still add to your total avoidance). Most tanks will hover at somewhere around 15%-ish for parry, dodge or block each, so anywhere between 40-45% total avoidance, and that's with raid gear, while defcapped. But like I said before in this thread, Warriors have the Shield Block ability which adds 100% block chance and can almost be on a 100% uptime, so therefore, Warriors could go beyond the 103% avoidance point. Blocking an attack would still be the "worst" way to avoid a crushing blow however, since you would still take a majority of the damage from the attack, so parry and dodge, which completely negated the damage, were still better and in no way useless just because a Warrior could easily go above 103% avoidance most of the time.

    So no, I wouldn't say tanks had the easiest time picking what gear to use. Just slapping on 8/8 Wrath wouldn't necessarily net the best results.
    Last edited by Whiskra; 2017-12-04 at 12:56 AM.

  2. #342
    the only complicated stat in vanilla was weapon skill. It got fully encrypted just before tbc, and got replaced in tbc by expertise. This was the only "complicated" stat in vanilla. But from todays perspective, even the work of this stat is basic knowledge or rather the information about this stat is easy accessible.

  3. #343
    Higher ilevel is better though, always!

    * looks back at vanilla servers *

    Wait, we didn't have ilevel back then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladar View Post
    Back in the day you had just for tanks the following stats: strength, stamina, defense, parry, dodge, weapon skill, block %, block value, resistance, etc. You had to balance the stats yourself and understand your items. You couldnt just go with the item with the highest level like in retail now.

    Item and stats management is too complicated for todays retailers. Should they just simplify the stats for vanilla to be more accessible for retailers?
    That is the beauty of Vanilla. If you can't figure it out, you do not belong there

  5. #345
    Vanilla was basic as bats shit, get off your high horse thief

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by xcitng View Post
    Vanilla was basic as bats shit, get off your high horse thief
    Interesting language.
    False Accusation
    Disorderly Conduct

    How to Sue for Defamation

  7. #347
    cool story bro

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by deniter View Post
    Was this the same Blizzard that introduced daily quests, dungeon finder, pet battles, garrisons, transmofgrifag, faceroll dungeons, linear story-telling questing, scenarios, flying mounts, toys, and class pruning to us?

    I guess the itemization must have been horrendous, even frightening.
    Yes, Plate gear with Agility is pretty horrendous. You can live in denial if you want to though.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Yes, Plate gear with Agility is pretty horrendous. You can live in denial if you want to though.
    Why? Why is it horrendous? Care to elaborate? Is it because it's not suitable for min-maxing in %your favorite activity%? Do you even know how stats worked? Do you know why agi was not useless for a DPS warrior? Hint: it affected crit.
    Last edited by Wiedzemir; 2017-12-05 at 06:09 PM.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Triks View Post
    in Vanilla you have 20 min spamming in the city, 15 min flying to the instance, 5 min getting there and 60 min to complete the dungeon itself.
    Especially in pre-raid preparation this sucks a lot . A lot of blues from dungeons are also very powerful even compared to MC/BWL equip and sometimes BiS until then. My favorit example is Badge of Justice from the last boss in BRD, the worst and most time consuming shit show in wow history .... compared with the vanilla loot system...

    But in general. The slow pace in vanilla does not only hit the dungeons, which are way more time consuming because of huge and dangerous trashpacks. This happens also in raids. Wipe recovery takes 5 to 10 times longer than in modern wow. Trashpacks and pathways between the bosses are really huge. The way from the graveyards to the raid took longer than 2-3 new attempts in modern wow.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Yes, Plate gear with Agility is pretty horrendous. You can live in denial if you want to though.
    Don't know about denial, but i still prefer random stats on gear. Not every piece can be optimal, and that leaves something for players to think too. Besides, you still get lots of armor and some avoidance and crit rate by wearing plate with agi.

    Oh, btw, shadow damage on a shield is my personal favorite. It has no use for any of the classes in the game.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Yes, Plate gear with Agility is pretty horrendous. You can live in denial if you want to though.
    Actually, agility on plate is pretty okay. It provides a lot of useful stats.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    Especially in pre-raid preparation this sucks a lot . A lot of blues from dungeons are also very powerful even compared to MC/BWL equip and sometimes BiS until then. My favorit example is Badge of Justice from the last boss in BRD, the worst and most time consuming shit show in wow history .... compared with the vanilla loot system...
    Oh no, there is MUCH worse in BRD from this boss : the epic hammer
    Badge of Justice is actually not that bad. The worst part is that it's so good you're nearly guaranteed to have two other guys who wants it

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Only warriors were actually able to tank anything more than easier dungeons, so that narrows things down...and there are already caps written down for others to min/max their stats and find the 'best pieces' to achieve the requirements. The internet exists ya know.
    I tanked Zul'Gurub pretty convincingly on my paladin... as Retribution.

    Besides the vanilla stats are even easier than now:

    Example for Retribution paladin:
    Get 314 weapon skill in whichever weapon you're equipping.
    Get +7% melee hit chance.
    Get at least 25% critical strike chance.
    Pile on the strength.

    Every other stat was just irrelevant UI junk which could be ignored.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Actually, agility on plate is pretty okay. It provides a lot of useful stats.
    Agility on plate provided only one thing as DPS: critical strike chance. For tanks it provided a very negligible amount of dodge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Badge of Justice is actually not that bad. The worst part is that it's so good you're nearly guaranteed to have two other guys who wants it
    Hand of Justice was godly for sword-specced Arms warriors, Retribution paladins and Enhancement shamans due to the infinite looping proc chances.
    I was still using mine well into the middle of The Burning Crusade leveling.
    Last edited by Hottage; 2017-12-06 at 09:59 AM.
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  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladar View Post
    Back in the day you had just for tanks the following stats: strength, stamina, defense, parry, dodge, weapon skill, block %, block value, resistance, etc. You had to balance the stats yourself and understand your items. You couldnt just go with the item with the highest level like in retail now.

    Item and stats management is too complicated for todays retailers. Should they just simplify the stats for vanilla to be more accessible for retailers?
    There was no balancing at all it was Defence to cap, then get hit 8% to stop taunt resists, Stam to survive and the rest is just bonus fluff stats except for resist fights where you would get Defence to cap and stack resists.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Only warriors were actually able to tank anything more than easier dungeons, so that narrows things down...and there are already caps written down for others to min/max their stats and find the 'best pieces' to achieve the requirements. The internet exists ya know.
    Completely wrong. Feral druids were viable as tanks all the way up to UBRS, and in UBRS they were fine off tanks. Some Ferals even main tanked in raids. Not progression obviously, but yeah, you are wrong.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladar View Post
    Back in the day you had just for tanks the following stats: strength, stamina, defense, parry, dodge, weapon skill, block %, block value, resistance, etc. You had to balance the stats yourself and understand your items. You couldnt just go with the item with the highest level like in retail now.

    Item and stats management is too complicated for todays retailers. Should they just simplify the stats for vanilla to be more accessible for retailers?
    Ah, I don't think you understand that vanilla was retail, DUDE it wasn't some elite invite only club. I think what you mean is "casual" players.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgummage View Post


    Agility on plate provided only one thing as DPS: critical strike chance. For tanks it provided a very negligible amount of dodge.
    1 point of Agility provided 0.05% crit and dodge, as well as 2 armor. That means 20 Agility was 1% crit, 1% dodge and 40 armor, and it scaled with Blessing of Kings. So it was a really good stat for Warriors.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chaelexi View Post
    There was no balancing at all it was Defence to cap, then get hit 8% to stop taunt resists, Stam to survive and the rest is just bonus fluff stats except for resist fights where you would get Defence to cap and stack resists.
    Could not get 8% hit and defcapped at the same time until almost full Tier 3, and 8% hit would not prevent taunt from being resisted since it was reliant on spell hit which Warriors normally couldn't get, and it was impossible to be defcapped and have a lot of resist at the same time, it was a choice between one or the other.

  18. #358
    It's not about being complicated or not. Although for sure there was more to pay attention to gearing wise.

    It's about diversity of choices and trying to allow players a way to find novel combinations of gear for certain fights or different upgrade paths.

  19. #359
    There was more diversity in stats, but honestly you didn't have to understand or even truly care about min maxing to be in bleeding edge progression. If you could read your tooltips and make correlations with cause and effect, you could get by just fine.

    I'm saying that with having MT'd each raid as it was when it was current, without ever having the BiS. Most of the time opting to try items that went against the conventional wisdom.

    The skinny: stats weren't hard to understand, only people who cared about knowing the exact math behind gear optimization then, were really the only ones who cared about it (progression raids weren't packed full of number nerds) and most of those number crunchers got carried anyway. They couldn't calculate how their backpeddling was detrimental.

  20. #360
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Not A Cat View Post
    God I hope "retailers" doesn't catch on

    Clearly you haven't been hearing about people's main complaint with Legion? Legendaries and RNG. The problem is people would get an item that's higher ilvl but the stats are crap, itemization is one of the biggest complaints so that already contradicts your last statement.

    Also stats weren't complicated at all. Don't get me wrong, I preferred it to the watered down version we have now, but don't overhype it when it's really the same thing just bloated. Classes might have 1 or 2 thresholds to hit whereas back then you had 3 or 4. It was annoying playing enhancement and having to max out spell hit instead of regular hit, but part of me misses it as well.
    To late, I like it. I am a retailing classic fanboy.
    Now that we are on this topic I would like to add this as a tittle when classic with sprinkles is released.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    AHAHAHAHAHAHA
    Hold on..
    AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


    Vanilla stats were never difficult. Poorly itemised so a bit more effort, sure. But never difficult. You could tell with relative ease if something was better for you.

    Also, is "retailers" now the official term for people playing live servers? What do we call those that currently play on private servers, "thieves"?
    Away, retailing thieve.
    Another great tittle for my off farming days.

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