How Can She Get Away With It?

[AcidicSyn]

I would love an Alliance victory, as Horde. I think that would be just the kick in the pants I need to hate the Alliance again. My dream ending is this:

Horde prepares to do something desperate. Alliance stop them, crushing their armies. With victory near, they begin to list victory conditions that include occupation of Horde capitals and, officially, the Warchief will not be able to act without Alliance approval. The Horde gets a second wind from realizing they are about to lose their independence and bloody the Alliance, killing a faction leader or two, but ultimately fail. The next expansion is a repeat of post-Second War shenanigans where in Orgrimmar there are Alliance embassies and representatives overseeing the Horde and a few overzealous individuals mistreat the populace. Some factions remain independent while enclaves of orcs continue the fight guerilla-style in Ashenvale and The Barrens. Both factions are justified in the damage they do - Alliance finally shutting down a rival faction that proved to be extremely irresponsible and the Horde fighting for freedom rather than conquest.

The faction war continues on a smaller scale and the next story arc of WoW involves the Horde bristling at the Alliance's control and eventually bucking it entirely, resetting the status quo since Blizzard clearly stated they don't plan on the faction war ever going away.

I like this idea. I love this idea. I think this is a great idea entirely due to the fact that this kind of road map would require regularly revamping the normal world to reflect the current state. Not even being sarcastic either; if I could I'd have the world changed to reflect the events of the previous expansion every single time. Preferably through clever use of phasing/sharding like what we're supposed to see in BFA (Though they haven't given us too many specifics, I hope its plentiful). That way someone could see the story progress as they played.

[Deleted]

They really didn't get what they wanted with Void Elves though. Void Elves are absolute trash and are in no way close to "High Elves." Either way, why would you want these people on Horde? Let them have High Elves, the fewer polluting our faction the better.
.

As much as I agree with you, we have to be reasonable, they couldn't possibly transfer all BElf players to another faction, being a 3rd one or the Alliance...
...Sadly..

But hey, I guess they're actually a quite surprising and kinda cool addition to the Horde ? Sometimes ? And they seem more loyal to the Horde than they were during MoP, when they actually had meetings with the Alliance in order to maybe switch sides... (You can't imagine how much I liked that idea before realizing it was simply impossible )

Anyway. Sorry about the ramblings.

[Katchii]

T
You're being ridiculously dishonest here. A fire had burned a significant chunk of Orgrimmar. Even Cairne, one of Garrosh's foremost critics, praised his decision to rebuild the city. What's your complaint here? That he bothered to rebuild Orgrimmar with material that isn't likely to burn to a crisp, after Orgrimmar burned down because it looks mean? I mean what?

The sentence is a complete thought. I'm aware of the fire and why he rebuilt, I'm saying that as a result of his rebuilding and redesigning he evicted some residents he felt were too weak to defend the city. The more complete eviction that happened after portions of the Horde rallied against him and take over of certain areas didn't occur until much later in Mists.

The city was segregated. People weren't evicted.

Both happened, the two are not mutually exclusive

Segregation doesn't excuse treason. Nice job putting the word treasonous in quotes by the way. Threatening a legitimate sovereign and warning an enemy of an upcoming attack from your faction are both inarguably treasonous.

I did not mean to imply that none of the actions taken were treasonous. My point was that his bigotry was present and open for all to see prior to any of the actions being taken. Some of the action were not treasonous, but some were.

The Quillboar situation was able to be resolved peacefully. Ashenvale wasn't. That was tried, and it failed. Are we supposed to criticize Garrosh for taking the only option left on the table, simply because that was his preferred solution?

The Ashenvale conflict was entirely unnecessary though. His whole purpose was just to destroy the Alliance outposts there and build another huge city rivaling Orgrimmar in scope and power. Gathering resources and whatnot was a secondary objective and would not have needed such a bold bloody offensive to accomplish.

Yes, obviously Garrosh's solutions didn't work long-term. He was betrayed halfway through and lost.

Rightfully so. He betrayed every other race that was not Orcs. He was Warchief of the HORDE not just the Orcs. He was a terrible leader to everyone but the Orcs

Garrosh didn't completely disregard what it needed. The Horde was starving, trade had been cut and diplomacy had failed. He took action to secure what his people needed.

The Horde needed water because his renovations polluted their water supply, unintentionally, I'll admit. The water problem was addressed with deliveries from Mulgore and the hostilities with the Quillboar attacking the water caravans was addressed when the botched operation Garrosh lead was salvaged by Baine.

As far as advice, what advice? Baseless accusations like Cairne made? Death threats like Vol'jin made?

The advice from his advisers that attempted to do things less aggressively than what he wanted. Garrosh made it clear from day 1 that he had very little experience and no interest in being diplomatic preferring to wage war and take what he wants.

And you seem to fundamentally misunderstand how the Horde works. If his underlings feel like he's doing a poor job they can challenge him to Mak'gora. Only Cairne did that. Threatening to shoot him from "da shadows bruddamon" isn't legitimate, it's treasonous.

Why would anyone challenge him to Mak'gora after he unfairly won against Cairne? I dont' see why anyone would challenge him to honorable combat when by the time things escalated they didn't see him as honorable. They'd also be stupid for trying given his martial prowess. As much as I disliked him, he was set-up to be a badass on the battlefield.

The Tauren and Trolls, considering they swore the Blood Oath of the Horde, which literally sets up the Horde as an absolutist dictatorship.

Fair point, but I disagree with the idea that the Horde is an absolute dictatorship. It hasn't worked that way for a long time even if that is how the oath is worded.

Great Godwin there. Next time you read history, try to have an eye out for nuance, eh?

In the areas that I don't think I need to elaborate on here Garrosh directly correlates to Hitler. There's no nuance needed. I shouldn't have to elaborate or go line by line why they're similar

Is (justified) racism the crime of the century now? Do "wrong opinions" excuse treason? No, that's ridiculous.

Racism is never justified. Wrong opinions don't excuse treason, but horrible wrong decisions justify the actions taken against a horrible dictator.

See responses above in bold

I'll admit he, at first, had the best interests of the Horde at heart but even from the beginning he went about everything as a warmongering dictator, which is the wrong way to do things. Every race within the Horde, including Orcs, were against him by the end of it all. He obviously wasn't a good leader if the vast majority of the people he was supposed to be leading and protecting were actively trying to get rid of him as a result of what he was doing.

[Magnagarde]

Believe me, I'm a RP player (Yes, we still roam), and I know the Horde inherited all the "Legol-asses" as soon as BElves were introduced...
But I was focusing more on the "GIVE ALLIANCE HIGHELVES" crowd in my original message, if I have to be specific... They just can't see themselves playing as the other faction to the point that they actually demand to play as an opposite race without faction changing.... And the worst part is that Blizz gave them what they wanted...
That's called spoiling a child in my book : yielding to a child's uproar instead of patiently waiting for him to understand why life works this way...

Oh well..

The thing is that the request for high elves was based on the lore behind their current and past status, alongside with the fact that they want to be a high elf within the Alliance, not the Horde. I can understand them; if I was one of them, it'd be pretty lame to have to go around muddy encampments and undead sewers as a high elf just because you can play something that is aesthetically almost identical.

It is basically a clash between the Legolases established over the years within the Horde versus the would-be-Legolas people that don't want to be an elf within Saruman's army. Either way, we best leave it burried within other threads that discuss this.

[Jastall]

Blizzard stated he wasn't corrupted. So long as the Old God isn't revitalized, what's the harm?

I'm sure that, based on past experiences with things like the Divine Bell, Garrosh knew exactly what he was doing and wouldn't have strengthened the Old Gods. I'm also sure that attempting to launch a campaign of extermination on the entire world when you hold one city is wise military strategy, just like I'm sure that purposefully alienating every single one of your allies, save those that only care about money, is a cunning long-term plan.

Garrosh up until Cata was fine, even if the flip-flopping in regards to his personality was pure bad writing. In MoP his actions are not only morally indefensible, but pure stupidity as well, and he led the Horde to its darkest hour by being a bone-headed moron. Thankfully Sylvanas, whatever fault she has, seems to know the meaning of intelligence and restraint, sometimes at least.

[Deleted]

The thing is that the request for high elves was based on the lore behind their current and past status, alongside with the fact that they want to be a high elf within the Alliance, not the Horde. I can understand them; if I was one of them, it'd be pretty lame to have to go around muddy encampments and undead sewers as a high elf just because you can play something that is aesthetically almost identical.

It is basically a clash between the Legolases established over the years within the Horde versus the would-be-Legolas people that don't want to be an elf within Saruman's army. Either way, we best leave it burried within other threads that discuss this.

Come on, all Horde encampments aren't "primal" or forsaken-themed. Or at least, they're not outside of Kalimdor and EK anyway. Remember Isle of Thunder, for instance ?

On another note, the main problem is here, in my opinion :

It is basically a clash between the Legolases established over the years within the Horde versus the would-be-Legolas people that don't want to be an elf within Saruman's army.

the would-be-Legolas people that don't want to be an elf within Saruman's army.

within Saruman's army.

THIS right here is the main problem in my opinion.. people want to force LOTR into the Warcraft universe. So, orcs must be evil and stupid, also expandable, humans must be as bland as can be, and if they do wrong, it's because they were cursed/controlled/influenced, and elves are basically the greatest thing that ever was or will be.
I mean, I love LOTR too, but I play WoW because the manicheism in Tolkien's universe regarding the races was really displeasing me, and Blizzard's version of the orcs called to me. I didn't want to play LOTRO, I chose WoW because I loved the story that was told to me ever since Warcraft 2, when they dared the make the humans lose Stormwind only to come back stronger..


But, as you stated, I digress..

[Magnagarde]

Come on, all Horde encampments aren't "primal" or forsaken-themed. Or at least, they're not outside of Kalimdor and EK anyway. Remember Isle of Thunder, for instance ?

On another note, the main problem is here, in my opinion :





THIS right here is the main problem in my opinion.. people want to force LOTR into the Warcraft universe. So, orcs must be evil and stupid, also expandable, humans must be as bland as can be, and if they do wrong, it's because they were cursed/controlled/influenced, and elves are basically the greatest thing that ever was or will be.
I mean, I love LOTR too, but I play WoW because the manicheism in Tolkien's universe regarding the races was really displeasing me, and Blizzard's version of the orcs called to me. I didn't want to play LOTRO, I chose WoW because I loved the story that was told to me ever since Warcraft 2, when they dared the make the humans lose Stormwind only to come back stronger..

What you fail to realize is that exactly because of the undead and blood elves in the Horde, the orcs appear stupid. No orc can be as knowledgable as Rommath or versatile like Sylvanas or pragmatic like Helcular. The Horde was structured around strenght, honor, shamanism and druidism. Now you put a magister of Silvermoon into the play or someone who's been around for millenia and all of a sudden the average orc stands no chance in a faction that revolves around blood elf and undead standards.

When it comes to their settlements, yes, most Horde settlements look like a mashup of iron, tree and aren't as clean as Alliance ones, but that isn't the only point point I wanted to make when mentioning it. This is a double effect; the Horde settlements should be like that, but the moment you add elves and undead to it, it changes into something completely different. It becomes an environment with orcish aesthetics that surrounds blood elven or undead characters doing elven and undead things.

All of the arguing about elves is about elves that didn't succumb to their magical hunger, that aren't walking around Horde settlements, that aren't putting up with undeath, that haven't tapped into fel or void and who have a long history of being Alliance in the lore. This is what people want/ed.

[ello]

One of the major issues I had with the Burning Legion is that they never felt like a real threat, sure we lost Vol'jin and Varian but I never got the sense that was on the verge of conquering Azeroth. That's why uniting to defeat a large threat feels stupid and unnecessary. I think the emergence of N'Zoth could potentially force the factions to stop fighting if Blizzard writes them as believably threatening.

Azeroth just finished fighting off the Legion, our forces are depleted, and the first thing we do is go for each other's throats, all while our planet is bleeding to death. This is the perfect moment for the Old Gods to strike, and the perfect time for them to win.

Imagine if... we actually lose for once? Blizzard has shown they are willing to change the world permanently, what if the Old Gods' forces actually get to claim territory. Maybe Silithus falls to Old Gods' forces, Southern EK is taken, hell maybe a major city like Thunderbluff falls, Alexstraza dies, Thrall dies, The Lich King gets corrupted. As the expansion goes on more and more territory is lost as the divided factions scramble to put together a real resistance. In this situation, they don't really get a choice. They have to set the faction war aside or all would be lost. The expansion would end with us retaking or defending a major defense point as a consolation prize, then 9.0 would begin "rise of the black empire" where we begin a tug-of-war battle with N'Zoth's forces, ultimately leading to his defeat.

[Magnagarde]

One of the major issues I had with the Burning Legion is that they never felt like a real threat, sure we lost Vol'jin and Varian but I never got the sense that was on the verge of conquering Azeroth. That's why uniting to defeat a large threat feels stupid and unnecessary. I think the emergence of N'Zoth could potentially force the factions to stop fighting if Blizzard writes them as believably threatening.

Azeroth just finished fighting off the Legion, our forces are depleted, and the first thing we do is go for each other's throats, all while our planet is bleeding to death. This is the perfect moment for the Old Gods to strike, and the perfect time for them to win.

Imagine if... we actually lose for once? Blizzard has shown they are willing to change the world permanently, what if the Old Gods' forces actually get to claim territory. Maybe Silithus falls to Old Gods' forces, Southern EK is taken, hell maybe a major city like Thunderbluff falls, Alexstraza dies, Thrall dies, The Lich King gets corrupted. As the expansion goes on more and more territory is lost as the divided factions scramble to put together a real resistance. In this situation, they don't really get a choice. They have to set the faction war aside or all would be lost. The expansion would end with us retaking or defending a major defense point as a consolation prize, then 9.0 would begin "rise of the black empire" where we begin a tug-of-war battle with N'Zoth's forces, ultimately leading to his defeat.

I've always wanted to see a third faction. The Scourge would be a perfect pick. It could be an enemy of both the Alliance and the Horde, with its own intentions and goals.

It would be a faction that you can play in purely because it does bad things and it wouldn't be riddled by people who'd whitewash them like the Horde's undead because no one would be tryharding to make their faction look like the good guys.

[Big Mama]

I expect to see only elves, participating in topless dance contests ontop of the bodies of thousands of orcs, tauren and trolls, just because the kids wanted their "Lëgølàssssss" character

omg I can't even you nailed it

[Niroshi]

Might be unpopular but I expect (and hope) to see Thrall return and displace Sylvanas. Thrall's Horde was the Horde people fell in love with originally, in part because his Horde was the one trying to overcome troubled histories and survive in a hostile world. Garrosh's Horde went off the rails into Manifest Destiny racism, and Sylvanas' Horde is basically a large group of dopes who don't realize they're being used.

[sam86]

Legion, of course, saw some hostilities between the Horde and Alliance; however, it followed the WotLK model roughly.

Strongly disagree with u, there was nowhere near hostilities as Wrath
In wrath alliance and horde were in conflict in many zones, like Grizzly Hills, Dragonblight, alliance even raid a horde capital city in one of most memorable epic quests ever, let's not forget the conflict in every single patch, even last raid while attacking Lich King, alliance assault horde (since the version of Varian allows Saurfang take his son corpse is ignored in lore canon, it is pretty safe to take that the horde version is the canon one, also not the point here anyway), since patch 3.0 and alliance and horde were made sure clear enemies, with Wintergrasp an actual zone in lore, not to mention the horde backstab at Icecrown quest (and - ironic - Garrosh force the horde commander to apologize to alliance, check it, it exists in lore)
The most important those weren't side actions that had no support from the faction, the exact opposite, Garrosh was 2nd in command during wrath, and he was very hostile to alliance since day one, and Varian was even more hot head than him, who is the supreme leader of alliance
We talk hostilities here between number 1 in alliance and number 2 in horde, not just random wannabe leader
In legion, we have aggression from purely one side (alliance), and not just 'all' alliance, just worgens, with zero sign that it was supported by any alliance leader at all, in fact the alliance races are far more on friendly terms with horde, with nelfs friendly with any horde member (specially druids), Velen (who was the biggest figure in this exp, also rank-wise he surely outranked Genn) inviting horde for help on every term, horde go to Exodar to help alliance in a move that no one would blame horde if they didn't go, alliance rogues save horde from legion spies and vice versa, Lidarin serving under alliance paladin and Arator the same, and so many on
No, this isn't the same on any foot, Legion was mostly the most time ever in wow history that alliance and horde were on very good terms, if not even best friends level, even the Stormheim 'aggression' was one sided by worgens and forsaken were purely self defending

While wrath wasn't flawless, don't compare a masterpiece like wrath story to legion, at least when alliance battleship attacked horde in ICC we had very long history of feuds, like how we killed alliance heroes in ToC, to explain, whatever the FUCK they did in legion, that seriously came out of their asses just to make another 'filler' expansion as they called MoP, except in MoP we had aggression rising every exp since wrath until full war that made sense (in cata alliance and horde were just 1 hair away from declare war, fighting in every single zone, with both sides using every trick possible, like prisoners of stockades or the plague), legion is a big FUCK U lore that still piss me off whenever someone talks about it made 'sense' to go full war planing on wiping each other out from face of the world, and no one from the VERY LONG list of alliance/horde figures who were just best buddies with the other faction trying to even 'slightly' oppose it
for FUCK sake as priest during my most hardcore wow days i always considered Faol the biggest priest lore figure ever, after they rez him he is cool with what happens ? He is the 2nd in command in priest class hall, he is an undead alliance priest, the founder of paladin order, one of biggest holy light figures to ever exist in Azeroth if not the biggest native azeroth figure (velen is only one highest, but he isn't native), and he get shit in face ?
Sorry for the rant, but seriously next exp piss me off greatly, even more than Garrosh turning hitler mode on out of his ass (at least he was that in wrath, even if cata made him far better)

[Super Kami Dende]

Sylvanas is a shit character. It's not surprising shitty things happen around her.

[sam86]

Might be unpopular but I expect (and hope) to see Thrall return and displace Sylvanas. Thrall's Horde was the Horde people fell in love with originally, in part because his Horde was the one trying to overcome troubled histories and survive in a hostile world. Garrosh's Horde went off the rails into Manifest Destiny racism, and Sylvanas' Horde is basically a large group of dopes who don't realize they're being used.

Won't happen, yes i also loved Thrall horde, the horde that was family, where trolls talk orcish in defense, where Thrall help and protects anyone weak that someone tries to wipe out for the horrible crime of dare exist (which was always alliance, except for taurens it was centaurs)
But realistically Thrall was Chris character alongside Malfurion, Chris left blizzard sadly, I don't expect either Malfurion or Thrall to make any big comeback again, in fact I won't be surprised if they kill them and end their story

[Razion]

Baine isn't in a position to do that. Anduin doesn't have the political clout necessary to reel in Jaina, Genn and Tyrande. And no, "Shaping the minds of the common people" is not how something ends in an occupation or domination type victory. Do you even know what you're arguing at this point?

Yes, continents are large and wars would take a while to wage. That's literally never been the case in this setting though. Why would Blizzard suddenly start factoring time in now? You still haven't answered that. Beyond that, each faction establishing dominance over a single continent isn't domination or occupation in the sense of what I was referring to. Stormwind was destroyed and rendered entirely irrelevant in the First War. The Horde was destroyed and rendered entirely irrelevant after the Second War.

Kalimdor going to the Horde and Eastern Kingdoms going to the Alliance isn't that. The Horde and Alliance will both be fairly significant players at that stage. There's no reason for the war to end there, either.

Fine, "faction leaders". Semantics. The leaders of the winners will order the defeated to surrender their weapons. In a domination style victory, you destroy the enemy army, force those stragglers left over to surrender, and the remaining populace you surround and also force to stand down. Production of war goods ceases, and whatever resistance left is quelled. This is domination style victory. You can dominate the enemy without going all Garrosh on everyone and committing genocide. Winning a battle but sparing most of the people isn't out of the picture at all. As long as the winner has the clear superior remaining military force to coerce the remaining populace of the other faction, a deal can be made which basically sums up to, "drop the swords/axes, we're in charge now." Doesn't matter who's saying it at the end of the expansion. Could be the risen corpse of Grand Admiral Taylor for all it matters, the leader of the winning battle is going to be calling the shots for the most part regardless. Like, who's going to stop them? They command the only remaining military power in the world. Domination. End of conflict. One side wins. No capitols left to mass-produce goods. What're they gonna do, all just escape the entire other faction's surrounding forces of their capitols and up and hoof it to Northrend or something? The situation I'm describing is a war that sweeps from one capitol to the next, eliminating one threat at a time. Perhaps, just spitballing here, say, I dunno, Undercity or Darnassus.

[Niroshi]

Won't happen, yes i also loved Thrall horde, the horde that was family, where trolls talk orcish in defense, where Thrall help and protects anyone weak that someone tries to wipe out for the horrible crime of dare exist (which was always alliance, except for taurens it was centaurs)
But realistically Thrall was Chris character alongside Malfurion, Chris left blizzard sadly, I don't expect either Malfurion or Thrall to make any big comeback again, in fact I won't be surprised if they kill them and end their story

Metzen said when he left that he would still voice Thrall and they have him on the major character card for BfA, so we may see him yet.

[Soeroah]

When did Saurfang get demoted from Orcish racial leader to Sylvanas' bodyguard?

He didn't.

He did, however, if I recall correctly, give Sylvanas much the same threat he gave Garrosh; he's gonna watch her, and take action if she does something detrimental to the Horde.

He didn't do anything to Garrosh, likely because of his own son dying and him going into morning, but given that failure and what happened next it's entirely likely he won't let that happen again, and uses his position to stay as close to Sylvanas as possible, thus why he's at the Undercity in the cinematic as well as in the picture.

If such a scenario were the case, the fact he hasn't already killed Sylvanas by the time of the BfA trailer despite being present at Teldrassil with her prior to the burning suggests that he knows she's not responsible.

Now, I'm not saying Sylvanas couldn't have done it. I'm just saying there are enough loose threads and not-an-answers that I think people are leaping to conclusions and setting themselves up for confusion or disappointment. Particularly the small group of "the Horde has gone too far, kill them all" all-caps posters who are setting themselves up to look like fools if my interpretation happens to be correct.

[Syegfryed]

He did, however, if I recall correctly, give Sylvanas much the same threat he gave Garrosh; he's gonna watch her, and take action if she does something detrimental to the Horde.

He didn't do anything to Garrosh, likely because of his own son dying and him going into morning, but given that failure and what happened next it's entirely likely he won't let that happen again, and uses his position to stay as close to Sylvanas as possible, thus why he's at the Undercity in the cinematic as well as in the picture.

would be cool in the middle of the expansion if Saurfang kill sylvanas on a makgora, pretty much like orgrin did with blackhand, assume the war and force an accord to both faction stop fighting until the big problem be resolved, not cold war like, not legion peace like, just a cease fire, with tiny conflicts around the world

[LaserChild9]

I never considered complaining about too much complaining was considered irony, but it does look like it if you simplify it this way.
I still stand to my point, and my complaint is still legit tho.

You weren't just complaining though were you? You were acting like a toddler having a paddy, crying about the whinier part of the fan base, you then went on a rant about Theramore, Southshore and Blood elves and finshed up with a bitter whinge predicting that the poor ickle horde would be owned by elves.

The irony was in the fact that you were the 2nd post in the thread, and the first acting like the whiny fan base you were ranting about with no Alliance whines in sight. You can't pretend to be the mature part of the fan base while being the very first person to start crying and shitposting in a thread, it makes it hard to take you seriously.

I get that there are 2 sides in wow, but I really don't understand this mentality of demonizing the other faction and it's players.

[Maljinwo]

would be cool in the middle of the expansion if Saurfang kill sylvanas on a makgora, pretty much like orgrin did with blackhand, assume the war and force an accord to both faction stop fighting until the big problem be resolved, not cold war like, not legion peace like, just a cease fire, with tiny conflicts around the world

Warchief Saurfang is long overdue