Should more complex stats make a return? (block%, MP5, hit, defense rating, etc)

[Directionalk9]

The only thing I don’t want back is hit, I miss mp5 weirdly.

[callipygoustp]

Reduction of complexity is most definitely the single biggest reason for me no longer playing WoW. The shallow character development in today's version of WoW bores the hell out of me.

[Rendark]

No i don't think so.

[callipygoustp]

The biggest thing is Healers though. Spirit/Mp5 and Int increasing maximum mana should all return. I stopped playing any Healer alts the moment those things were removed.

Removing those stats along with the introduction of smart heals.... so fucking boring playing a healer since then.

[Trickname]

I've seen a few people calling the old stats "complex" but they were more tedious than "complex" it really wasn't difficult just googling what was optimal. It was also just simply annoying with things like hit%.

[Kolbjorn]

these stats would be a little too hard for the current playerbase to wrap their mind around.. Plus, none of them have time to worry about these sorts of things

Why do you think that "Max hit/expertise, then calculate stat weights" is any more difficult than "Get haste to breakpoint, then calculate stat weights"?

Old stats aren't harder, and there will be sims available this time...

[gushDH]

Hit rating was a boring stat.

Multistrike should come back in place of versatility.

Reforging should never come back again, because you would just use the addon so it reforges all your items so you sim highest.

[Thimagryn]

The thing about stats is that there is no skill involved. Everyone needs to be progressing at the same pace otherwise it interferes with the actual performance in the raids.

It may have been a good way to define good and bad raiders back in the day, but today everything is homogenized and all stats can be balanced out to ideal numbers through addons so there's no real gameplay to be had within those stats; at least not without heavily impacting everyone's performance overall and artificially creating a larger skill gap between casuals and pros. We don't need larger gaps when the content is already so divided.

Bringing back artificial hardcaps like Hit or Defense won't add any challenge or fun, and only punishes those who don't know about the addons. You're still going to run into the same itemization problems once you have gear that has hit and you say 'does the piece of gear have hit which I need to stay capped?' 'no?' *discards item*

[Camthur]

Holy crap NO! Get rid of more stats in fact. Versatility is so freaking boring. (and yes I know this is a Jaylock thread and all he's doing is trolling again)

If Blizz wants different classes to have different benefits from the main stats, they are free to have those be hidden under the hood instead of bothering us with them.

[Talsar]

Probably not tbh.

Most of the stats that were removed were boring anyway.

Multistrike while somewhat interesting was so badly implemented that it had to be shadow-nerfed in pvp, so if they could bring that back in a way that isn't game breaking I wouldn't be opposed.
Spirit, while interesting in theory, in practice was extremely problematic for game balance and as such lowered the quality of the game overall. Removing spirit was an excellent move.

[kubasniak]

Id like them to return. It gives WoW more D&D feeling. But with it many mechanics should come back to the game like resource management etc. Youd have to again mechanically approach mobs etc drink after fights. I loved vanilla tbc and wotlk. Because of all these mechanics WoW was more immersive and enjoyable. Now I am super hero rekting everything mindlessly thats why unsubbed and play vanilla and will play it official release.

[Jellybear14]

If I'm been honest the game is too simplified now.

I liked having to ensure you were Hit/Exp capped, reforging helped when the items you wanted didn't drop or needing to lose a small amount of one stat to gain a more useful stat. Now, you dont even have to consider anything other than the few stats that are important.

Yes it makes it easier for new people, but imho they have made it to easy...

[Kovaz]

Current secondary stats are braindead simple and we still have to download an addon to figure out if we can use a drop or not. Say what you will about hit rating, it was pretty intuitive to tell a new player "get 263 hit rating so you never miss against bosses" and they could figure that out themselves. Tack on some more informative tooltips in your character screen and you won't need any addons.

If we had more secondary stats with hard/soft caps and more gem slots, enchantments, and reforging, you'd fix the problem of not being able to use a cool drop. Once you know that you need 263 hit rating, then 400 haste, then max out mastery (or whatever), you can shuffle gems and enchants around to make room for a new item. Nothing's more frustrating than not being able to use your new [Sword of a Thousand Truths], because your current [Rusty Spatula] has more mastery.

[God Save The King]

I say get rid of secondaries altogether.
Then there's no need to complain about itemization, how one stat is god for one spec while trash for another, etc.
Have primary stat, then let that control all secondaries passively at a fixed incremental rate.
No more loot drama, just "is it higher ilvl? yes? well then, slap that bitch on!"

I've always really liked this idea. Stats are not complex when we have created programs that will automate our decisions for us. It was interesting back in games like D&D, where investing in Charisma as a Fighter might give some outside benefit, or leveling a specific skill might allow you to pass a rather challenging check.

If they really wanted to make stats interesting, they could implement things that do not have direct combat benefits, but that'd be quite a large deviance from the current state of the game. I think true complexity and choice can come from things like talents, glyphs (if they brought them back), and interesting gems/enchants. Instead of gemming/enchanting a primary or secondary stat, you could chose leech, indestructible, speed, avoidance, or other stats if they added them. They could bring spirit back and give it an in combat HP5 benefit, and remove the MP5 benefit. List goes on. WoW's choices are designed primarily around increasing damage, which means there is no real choice since there is always a correct answer.

[iamthedevil]

I want a stat that has a chance to make me moonwalk on hit.

[MagusHenosis]

Of course they should, are you kidding me here???

Silly Jaylock!!!

Dude, they never should have been taken away in the first place..... and that's the thing lol!!!

When is Blizzard (you perhaps???) going to finally get it???

Possibly soon lol, and I can only hope, with questions like this being asked here, without the threads being locked/deleted.

Why were threads asking questions like this, that were LOADED with truth about what makes a game high quality, that were no kidding intended to help, locked/deleted historically??? Perhaps since they questioned the status quo??? Which was that more dumbed down=better???

"This type of thread doesn't blah blah blah, and is getting out of hand blah blah blah"

*LOCKED/DELETED!!!*

Good one there......ignore the truth lol!!!

And why were they getting out of hand by the way???

Since the people who advocate for imbalance and a dumbed down game don't like the truth being spoken perhaps??? So they were starting stuff, and personally attacking people, as they pretty much always do???

This website (and the official forums) are so prone to censorship that it's just mind blowing to myself (who loves TRUE freedom FYI).

Yes Jaylock, the game would be MUCH better off being more deep, complex, and challenging again.

You know, like I have been telling y'all for like 10 years now???

*Rolls eyes*

[NorthWay]

I'd get back all the old stuff if I was in charge (this is where you can be happy I'm not, if you like).
The problem - IMO - is however that the breakpoints made stats go from "want" to "worthless". Stats should not have 0 value, the leftovers should be dumped into some other stat after the break, possibly at a percentage reduction.

[Spazlord]

I preferred it when we had to balance more stats, it kept gear relevant longer and posed a fun mini game when optimising your kit for a boss. Drop some hit for more dodge, trade avoidance for armor, or go full threat mode and cap hit and expertise. DPS could hover a bit under hit cap if there was a Draenei in the group, or just to play the odd and hope nothing missed while stacking more spellpower. All those things made the game fun, I really miss it and I'm looking forward to it when Classic comes.

[Jujudrood]

I've always really liked this idea. Stats are not complex when we have created programs that will automate our decisions for us. It was interesting back in games like D&D, where investing in Charisma as a Fighter might give some outside benefit, or leveling a specific skill might allow you to pass a rather challenging check.

If they really wanted to make stats interesting, they could implement things that do not have direct combat benefits, but that'd be quite a large deviance from the current state of the game. I think true complexity and choice can come from things like talents, glyphs (if they brought them back), and interesting gems/enchants. Instead of gemming/enchanting a primary or secondary stat, you could chose leech, indestructible, speed, avoidance, or other stats if they added them. They could bring spirit back and give it an in combat HP5 benefit, and remove the MP5 benefit. List goes on. WoW's choices are designed primarily around increasing damage, which means there is no real choice since there is always a correct answer.

That's an incredibly tough beam to balance, though.
Let's say tertiaries are the "new secondaries".
Well, tanks, stack leech, everyone else stack speed.
Both have a direct/indirect effect on your output (tanks healing themselves a little more, everyone else moving a bit faster for mechanics and such).

I would say the primary difference between WoW and D&D is that WoW is a combat-based game and revolves solely around it.
I've run D&D campaigns where an entire day has no combat moments (either by design or by clever player actions), so having all these extra numbers to weigh and increase are meaningful.
WoW is "how much damage can I output and what helps me achieve this".
Finding stats that are solely non-combat related, or at least have such a small effect (like leech on a dps, which can contribute but won't break the bank) would be a difficult task because people a) find the "best numerical one for them", or b) disregard them since they don't really do much of anything.

[NickCageFanatic]

Hit% was not a fun stat at all. That and Expertise were 2 stats that just made you as a melee suck less.