What is the logic behind saying Piracy is stealing?

[schwarzkopf]

T
The pirate posesses the instance of the intellectual property which does belong to another. How could he obtain it if not by stealing?

They do it by copying .... that's how they do it. Again - they can't steal if they haven't taken, they haven't taken if the thing wasn't removed from the owner.

In other news - 1+1 = 2, and the sun comes up once a day.

[Dys]

It's copyright infringement. If they can actually find a way enforce it.

I'd rather be busted for stealing, on what would amount to petty larceny, than face those types of charges.

[Easo]

Not sure if your are directing that at me but I NEVER claimed to be a hero.

I am saying I give ZERO fucks for your false morality.

Well, I meant all those pirates, who are saying that they did nothing wrong.
False morality? Nah, sorry, don't think so, stealing is stealing.

[Elim Garak]

I'm not sure you understand what "content" means in this context. It refers to the the entirety of a creation and includes any "copies". If I make a digital image, that image is my content and my property. If I make 10 copies, those copies are the same content and thus, my property. If you make 10 copies, those copies are also the same content and thus, still my property. Whether or not you "stole" them is not determined by them being copies but by whether or not I gave you permission to make copies.

A digital image is not even property, it's intellectual property, the media it is stored on is the actual property. You are the author and own the rights to the art. You own the copyright. If someone copies the image they are not stealing, they are infringing on your copyright. If they steal your USB stick that holds the PSD (or whatever original format you used) - that would be stealing, of a USB stick. Unless that was the only copy - then it will be stealing of the digital image. Because you no longer have it.

This is how I justify an illegal act.
It is not stealing it is copyright infringement nanana neener neener.

You used something not yours.
It is stealing.

it's a copyright infringement. An illegal act in and of itself. What you are doing is going silly.

[Louisa Bannon]

Don't like the laws? Elect representatives that share your beliefs and have the laws changed.

The U.S. is a fully functioning oligarchy pretending to be a democracy when its actually supposed to be a republic.

If you think my vote has equal footing with one of the Koch brothers then that's just denial of the simple and obvious reality of the situation. Rupert Murdoch has more say in the U.S. because he can catch eyeballs with all of this media outlets - and he became a naturalized citizen precisely so he could use his vast wealth to peddle political influence. Just FYI, Murdoch is Fox and a bunch more besides.

Endus stated something equally obtuse a few weeks back, and such a statement is no truer now than it was then.

And here's a funny thing, the law isn't supposed to work as you seem to imagine it should. We aren't supposed to have the rule of the elected or even rule of the majority. What we are supposed to have is a set of protected rights regardless of arbitrary law making.

There has never been a good reason to extend any of our existing patent or copyright laws. We did so because media moguls have greater influence than do a majority of regular persons that would probably oppose these extensions if they actually understood what was at stake. I am not claiming that a majority should rule out over minority rights, what I am claiming instead is that the commons belong to everyone but that nobody defends the rights of the silent legion of persons that share the commons. That simple fact gives tremendous influence into the hands of a morally and philosophically bankrupt group that are operating purely on the basis of greed.

I mean, is there really zero irony in that Disney is critically responsible for copyright extensions and yet their own wealth is predicated significantly on material derived from works in the commons? There is no Disney Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Beauty and the Beast, etc without the commons. Those works can't exist without the commons and yet now Disney extends copyrights protecting their own unique interpretation of the those works. I get that Mickey Mouse is in there somewhere, but when was the last time they made a serious Mickey Mouse thing?

Once again, you can't create a special patent or a copyright without first removing a work from the commons and placing it in a special and protected legal category for some arbitrary period of time.

If you want to talk about stealing, start with that.

[cparle87]

In every circumstance I see some tool who hides behind false morality bash who their overlords call a pirate, it is because they are not tech savvy enough to torrent/share/backup themselves.

By that same logic everyone who works for a living because they're not tech savvy enough to counterfeit their own money is a tool.

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I mean, is there really zero irony in that Disney is critically responsible for copyright extensions and yet their own wealth is predicated significantly on material derived from works in the commons? There is no Disney Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Beauty and the Beast, etc without the commons. Those works can't exist without the commons and yet now Disney extends copyrights protecting their own unique interpretation of the those works.

Once again, you can't create a special patent or a copyright without first removing a work from the commons and placing it in a special and protected legal category for some arbitrary period of time.

In some cases, like some of those you mentioned, the original copyright holder and their families are long since dead, and therefore the rights to the property fell into the public domain. Such as music from guys like Bach and Beethoven. In others Disney negotiated with the patent holders to make content based on the property of the person. For instance when they made the movie Mary Poppins they struck a deal with the person who wrote the book to use that person's property as a basis for their movie. The author didn't like the movie, hated it in fact, and refused to allow Disney to make movies of any of the rest of their books even though they wanted to, as was thier right.

[Raelbo]

It never becomes stealing.

Given that I substantiated why it does, your rebuttal is meaningless without some sort of backing and warrant.

[Elim Garak]

Given that I substantiated why it does, your rebuttal is meaningless without some sort of backing and warrant.

You wasted your time to substantiate the unsubstantiable. No rebuttal was required besides the simple known fact that piracy is not stealing and it cannot become stealing, because for that it needs to cease to be piracy. So there.

[Tackhisis]

What is odd about this whole "piracy" BS is that boom boxes with 2 tape cassette players and only one has record, never had self righteous moralists crying about their corporate masters lost profits.

Because such copies have no commercial value, and they cannot be duplicate further. The piracy creates commercially valuable copies.

[Elim Garak]

Because such copies have no commercial value, and they cannot be duplicate further. The piracy creates commercially valuable copies.

Of course they had. I remember buying bootleg cassettes.

P.S. later bootleg VHS, cds, dvds

[Tackhisis]

I remember buying bootleg cassettes.

The post was about home-dubbed cassettes, not the bootleg ones.

[Vash The Stampede]

The mentality is simple, you are taking something that is not yours against the permission of the owner. You can try and quibble over whether it's theft, or simply copyright infringement, but it still makes you a shitty person for doing it.

So what does borrowing books at a library make me? I get books for free and never paid anyone for them. So what if I download a PDF of a book without permission?

[melodramocracy]

So what does borrowing books at a library make me? I get books for free and never paid anyone for them. So what if I download a PDF of a book without permission?

Another in a long line of terrible analogies. Borrowing a copy of a purchased item on a limited time-frame, with money owed if you bring it back late, is totally just like piracy.

[Machismo]

So what does borrowing books at a library make me? I get books for free and never paid anyone for them. So what if I download a PDF of a book without permission?

First off, most libraries are run by government entities. Often, the books are donated by those same publishing companies. Not only that, books are sold, whereas most software and movies are actually leased. The better analogy would be going to a movie theater, and sneaking into a theater to watch a movie that others paid to watch.

You'll notice that I have not spoken about it killing the industry, merely that it is a selfish act, taking something that does not belong to you.

[Orby]

Are people on these forums really so stupid? I mean Jesus H Christ. You are breaking laws for piracy. LAW. Whats next 'What is the logic behind saying rape is wrong?'

You can argue however much you like about it being wrong or not, the answer is 'it's wrong' because it's against the law. The argument should end there... Sky is blue and the grass is green, piracy is stealing.

Piracy isn't something someone made up yesterday in which people are taking a public stance against because it falls under belief. If you wanna debate the existence of God or not thats fine, there is no law against that. Piracy is wrong though.

2. the unauthorized use or reproduction of another's work.
"software piracy"
synonyms: illegal reproduction, plagiarism, illegal copying, copyright infringement, bootlegging, stealing, theft
"software companies are reluctant to say how much piracy costs them"

But by all means keep pirating, I am sure you will be fine, also give me your address and details so I can cal the authorities I am sure you can work something out with them when they come knocking, I am sure your argument will go down well..

[Lodreh]

...At worst it's copying, not stealing.

So illegal copying is not stealing? Here is how the world works.... you want something you pay the owner for it and you now have it. If at any point you did not pay the owner for it then it's stealing. Not a hard concept to grasp.

[pateuvasiliu]

So illegal copying is not stealing? Here is how the world works.... you want something you pay the owner for it and you now have it. If at any point you did not pay the owner for it then it's stealing. Not a hard concept to grasp.

It's not.

And the one who uploaded the torrent paid the owner.

If at any point you did not pay the owner for it then it's stealing

It's not stealing unless the data disappears from the owner's database, which it does not. If I play Vanilla WoW Blizzard doesn't lose their data.

[Lodreh]

It's not.

And the one who uploaded the torrent paid the owner.



It's not stealing unless the data disappears from the owner's database, which it does not. If I play Vanilla WoW Blizzard doesn't lose their data.

If at any point you own or are using something without the rightful owner's permission it's stealing. It's like me showing up and driving your car all night... I mean you were not using it right then so no harm right?

[Raelbo]

You wasted your time to substantiate the unsubstantiable.

The fact that I was able to substantiate it and you have been unable to provide a counter argument in your rebuttal indicates that you're talking nonsense now.

No rebuttal was required besides the simple known fact that piracy is not stealing and it cannot become stealing, because for that it needs to cease to be piracy. So there.

Please substantiate how you can conclude that "piracy" and "stealing" are mutually exclusive.

Given that the term "piracy" originates from groups of brigands who sailed on the high seas and stole goods from other ships, it stands to reason that stealing is an implied element of "piracy". So when the people who first decided to use the term to refer to the copying of IP, you can be damn sure that their intent was to imply that doing so was tantamount to stealing.

Now, you may argue that the term "piracy" isn't really appropriate because it isn't necessarily always the same as stealing, but you don't get to argue that, by definition, piracy =/= stealing, because that's just factually wrong.

[Elim Garak]

If I was a software developer or an author, I'd not mind one bit if people pirated my work. It's part of the age we live in. It seems those who learn to accept that thrive better than those who don't.

That's true, as a game designer I'm happy when the games I worked on get pirated, because that means people are enjoying them and that's the greatest praise to my talents. I don't lose a cent over this because in this age everything belongs to the corporation that paid me to do the work. I got my money. Screw the corporation.

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but you don't get to argue that, by definition, piracy =/= stealing, because that's just factually wrong.

Please refer to my first post in this thread. I have nothing else to say to you on this subject.