Antorus Progression Thread

[Hahyestwo]

Will anyone be disappointed if Argus falls this lockout?

I would be -- and I think he will fall this lockout. I can't see him lasting much longer. Even the hardest bosses go down by 700 pulls, and with everyone of relevance reaching him so early, he's bound to go down even if he is very tightly tuned.

To me, it's a downer for an end of Xpac raid to be on the level of something like Highmaul. If Argus is killed within the next 9 hours or so, the Antorus raid will actually have fallen quicker than HM. I feel like you should be forced to have a multiple reset or two of gear from the actual mythic raid to be able to down the final boss, but that's virtually impossible to get correct with the current systems in place.

[Atherions]

IMO i think tournament mythic realms sound super lame, and really doesn't fit into a MMO. I used to mythic raid top 100 and i would certainly never set foot in a tournament realm. The world first race is an unfair E-sport full of dirty tricks, and it should stay that way.

[Onikaroshi]

Will anyone be disappointed if Argus falls this lockout?

People who will still take months to kill the boss or will never kill it. Only like 5k guilds killed the "easiest boss evar" Xavius and that was after ToV gear nerfed it some.

99% of people will progress the raid normally like they always have, all him going down this lockout means is that those guilds who kill him can relax a week earlier than usual.

[Clozer]

People who will still take months to kill the boss or will never kill it. Only like 5k guilds killed the "easiest boss evar" Xavius and that was after ToV gear nerfed it some.

99% of people will progress the raid normally like they always have, all him going down this lockout means is that those guilds who kill him can relax a week earlier than usual.

killing the endboss in the first id instead of the third is HUGE, even for players in the 500+ guild range. They had litterally one 10/11 run for mythic loot.. one. The casual guilds will have a huge ilvl advantage the time they get to argus and he will fall even faster.

[Onikaroshi]

killing the endboss in the first id instead of the third is HUGE, even for players in the 500+ guild range. They had litterally one 10/11 run for mythic loot.. one. The casual guilds will have a huge ilvl advantage the time they get to argus and he will fall even faster.

You're missing the fact that before the average guilds get to the end boss he's usually nerfed 2-3 or even more times, that won't happen. Technically if Argus falls this week it just means they won't have to nerf it for the average Mythic guild, he'll already be balanced for them.

[BiggestNoob]

killing the endboss in the first id instead of the third is HUGE, even for players in the 500+ guild range. They had litterally one 10/11 run for mythic loot.. one. The casual guilds will have a huge ilvl advantage the time they get to argus and he will fall even faster.

World 1 KJ was 933.74, world 500 KJ was 941.43. That's 7.69 ilvls gained.
World 2 Archimonde was 720.37, world 500 Archimonde was 736.11. That's 15.74 ilvls gained.
World 1 Garrosh was 563.64, world 500 Garrosh was 578.51. That's 14.87 ilvls gained.

Gear also follows an exponential growth curve, making legendaries, weapons, and god damned TF gear with much higher ilvl than the rest of your gear contribute far more than a few upgrades would (or a few WF pieces in older raids), and secondary scaling slows down for the first time in Legion, so today's 1 ilvl average is weaker than previous ilvls.

I wish the game was still designed around this idea of having gear naturally nerf the instance, but the Ion really wants this game to be no fun for anyone.

[Seramore]

How I would make this a race:

Find a sponsor. Make guilds register 30 characters with 30 players..must have one of every class. You can only do heroic with the 30 that you sign up with. Create a separate server so everyone starts at the same time.

thank god you're not in charge of dictating the way a world first race works

also there's nothing more funnier than reading replies from people who think the way world first races should work differently when they're taking months (at the minimum, if even at all) to clear raids.

[Orwell7]

I wish the game was still designed around this idea of having gear naturally nerf the instance, but the Ion really wants this game to be no fun for anyone.

Yes yes yes x100
No need for constant hotfix nerfs if gear itself makes the raid easier over time. It's also an awesome reward, you feel more powerful week by week.
(and this way it's much less reliant on luck with tf)

[Cracked]

I think you missed the part where they said "and doesn't fuck over a lot of players in the process"

Ok, let's say they disallow trading loot for the first 2 weeks, and remove the option to master loot. With sets gone and titanforging reduced, who does it hurt?

Pros:
1) No more loot drama, ever. You can only get fucked by RNG, not by other people.
2) No more headache over who to assign loot to to gain maximum benefit.
3) No more standing around for 10 minutes after a boss kill sorting out loot.
4) Split raiding mostly solved.
5) Fairer power distribution overall. You will still have lucky outliers, but no longer guilds that have extreme power spikes.
Cons:
1) Those who like to abuse power within guilds no longer have the option.
2) Pro number 2 could be considered a con as well, so let's call it a neutral thing.

???
Please, do tell me if you think master looter is so central to raiding that it needs to stay. I would honestly like to hear the reasons, because after 13 years of raiding, I don't see them anymore.

[Deleted]

Future 9/11

[arizonapriest93]

Ok, let's say they disallow trading loot for the first 2 weeks, and remove the option to master loot. With sets gone and titanforging reduced, who does it hurt?

Pros:
1) No more loot drama, ever. You can only get fucked by RNG, not by other people.
2) No more headache over who to assign loot to to gain maximum benefit.
3) No more standing around for 10 minutes after a boss kill sorting out loot.
4) Split raiding mostly solved.
5) Fairer power distribution overall. You will still have lucky outliers, but no longer guilds that have extreme power spikes.
Cons:
1) Those who like to abuse power within guilds no longer have the option.
2) Pro number 2 could be considered a con as well, so let's call it a neutral thing.

???
Please, do tell me if you think master looter is so central to raiding that it needs to stay. I would honestly like to hear the reasons, because after 13 years of raiding, I don't see them anymore.

numerous reasons, I'm in a 500ish world guild for context, we also don't do split raids. We do however prioritize loot so that guy who showed up once and we used for a pull or two and happens to be there doesn't get bis while the player who showed up every night gets ignored. We also realize gear is more important for dps than tanks and healers. But nope p loot rng happened so lets see how that goes, hmm all our dps didn't get tier but healers and tanks did. hmm.. awesome. Hey that trinket that is only good for one spec, too bad the other specs that won't use it got it.

There's a reason for human interaction, it allows this thing called judgement to be used. Also More things to blame RNG on, but that hasn't been a thing this whole xpac either, right? (leggos come to mind, tf/wf, ap doubling, weekly chest, mission chest etc etc)

These are things I realized reading your post in about 5 seconds. I can come up with a ton more. What type of guilds are you in where people abuse power? Because I've been raiding for a long time and it's been just as long since I"ve seen that. I'm sure it happens but at this level? Nope. (or most likely nope) and I'm in the 500s, let alone the top tier. I didn't want to be so direct, but honestly does no one else notice the trend of poorly thoughtout solutions from people this probably doesn't impact? The only way you'll come up with a probably sound solution is to be strongly vested in this (most likely, obvious outliers) so either top 100 or Blizz (because money/job). /endrant.

[Veshx]

Ok, let's say they disallow trading loot for the first 2 weeks, and remove the option to master loot. With sets gone and titanforging reduced, who does it hurt?

Pros:
1) No more loot drama, ever. You can only get fucked by RNG, not by other people.
2) No more headache over who to assign loot to to gain maximum benefit.
3) No more standing around for 10 minutes after a boss kill sorting out loot.
4) Split raiding mostly solved.
5) Fairer power distribution overall. You will still have lucky outliers, but no longer guilds that have extreme power spikes.
Cons:
1) Those who like to abuse power within guilds no longer have the option.
2) Pro number 2 could be considered a con as well, so let's call it a neutral thing.

???
Please, do tell me if you think master looter is so central to raiding that it needs to stay. I would honestly like to hear the reasons, because after 13 years of raiding, I don't see them anymore.

Blizzard is not going to implement a system in order to combat something that 0.01% of the population does while simultaneously fucking over the rest of the raiding population.

It's a non-issue.

I'll address each of your points.

1. If you have loot drama then you are not in the right guild, if you as an adult cry about loot then find a different hobby or go somewhere else.
2. There should never be a headache about who to assign loot to. Your loot council takes care of that. Raid with competent people and it's almost like this problem goes away.
3. Again, if you stand around for 10 minutes deciding who gets loot, you might want to find a different guild. My guilds loot master is the only one who stays behind while the rest of the raid goes ahead and kills trash/goes over strat/sets markers up etc. By the time we are done with that, loot is done and we are ready to pull within 20 seconds.
4. So it's "mostly" solved and not fully solved? I thought your whole point was to have "the split raid problem" fully solved?
5. This is the only point that I agree with. Sure there will be johnny who gets a piece of gear every boss for the first 2 weeks, an extreme outlier as you said. It just prolongs your character progression. I know myself and many people would not raid if it was like this the first 2 weeks.

Your cons:
1. Again, find a different guild if you are experiencing corrupt loot masters/councils. I for one have never experienced this.
2. Then change it.

[Deleted]

Aversion 9/11. Would be interesting to see more guilds at 10/11 before Argus is downed.

[Fayenoor]

That's not good. Students should focus on their studies not be spending hours on end on gaming. What happens when they can't find employment.

That's how UBI comes into existence.

[Cracked]

numerous reasons, I'm in a 500ish world guild for context, we also don't do split raids. We do however prioritize loot so that guy who showed up once and we used for a pull or two and happens to be there doesn't get bis while the player who showed up every night gets ignored. We also realize gear is more important for dps than tanks and healers. But nope p loot rng happened so lets see how that goes, hmm all our dps didn't get tier but healers and tanks did. hmm.. awesome. Hey that trinket that is only good for one spec, too bad the other specs that won't use it got it.

There's a reason for human interaction, it allows this thing called judgement to be used. Also More things to blame RNG on, but that hasn't been a thing this whole xpac either, right? (leggos come to mind, tf/wf, ap doubling, weekly chest, mission chest etc etc)

These are things I realized reading your post in about 5 seconds. I can come up with a ton more. What type of guilds are you in where people abuse power? Because I've been raiding for a long time and it's been just as long since I"ve seen that. I'm sure it happens but at this level? Nope. (or most likely nope) and I'm in the 500s, let alone the top tier. I didn't want to be so direct, but honestly does no one else notice the trend of poorly thoughtout solutions from people this probably doesn't impact? The only way you'll come up with a probably sound solution is to be strongly vested in this (most likely, obvious outliers) so either top 100 or Blizz (because money/job). /endrant.

First, let me say that I don't face the problems I outlined, but they are pretty common things to see.
Most of your points come down to "Blizzard did a poor job designing this item to be good, therefore let's give it to whoever it is least bad for". Tier is gone. Legendaries are gone. Titanforging is (well, we don't know details) reduced.

I will give you 1 point and that is using items as reward structure for attendance, but then you can make the same argument about giving priority of raid spots to those who show up, if you are figting attendance problems in the first place, reward structure is not your problem.

Blizzard is not going to implement a system in order to combat something that 0.01% of the population does while simultaneously fucking over the rest of the raiding population.

It's a non-issue.

I'll address each of your points.

1. If you have loot drama then you are not in the right guild, if you as an adult cry about loot then find a different hobby or go somewhere else.
2. There should never be a headache about who to assign loot to. Your loot council takes care of that. Raid with competent people and it's almost like this problem goes away.
3. Again, if you stand around for 10 minutes deciding who gets loot, you might want to find a different guild. My guilds loot master is the only one who stays behind while the rest of the raid goes ahead and kills trash/goes over strat/sets markers up etc. By the time we are done with that, loot is done and we are ready to pull within 20 seconds.
4. So it's "mostly" solved and not fully solved? I thought your whole point was to have "the split raid problem" fully solved?
5. This is the only point that I agree with. Sure there will be johnny who gets a piece of gear every boss for the first 2 weeks, an extreme outlier as you said. It just prolongs your character progression. I know myself and many people would not raid if it was like this the first 2 weeks.

Your cons:
1. Again, find a different guild if you are experiencing corrupt loot masters/councils. I for one have never experienced this.
2. Then change it.

But you are not giving me reasons why master looter is inherently better. You are telling me how to fix problems that it inherently has in hands of many people, I didn't ask for that.

[Veshx]

First, let me say that I don't face the problems I outlined, but they are pretty common things to see.
Most of your points come down to "Blizzard did a poor job designing this item to be good, therefore let's give it to whoever it is least bad for". Tier is gone. Legendaries are gone. Titanforging is (well, we don't know details) reduced.

I will give you 1 point and that is using items as reward structure for attendance, but then you can make the same argument about giving priority of raid spots to those who show up, if you are figting attendance problems in the first place, reward structure is not your problem.



But you are not giving me reasons why master looter is inherently better. You are telling me how to fix problems that it inherently has in hands of many people, I didn't ask for that.

I mean, you are creating a problem out of a non-problem.

You want something to be put in place to affect EVERYONE in order to quell what 0.01% of the population does even though what 0.01% of the population does doesn't even effect you.

What you proposed is very short-sighted and not thought out.


When you raid at the level of what these guilds are doing, part of it is which class/spec/player do we need to gear up in order to push for world ranks. Leaving that fate in the hands of a computer doesn't sound fun at all.

[Jastall]

Force personal loot and disallow trading of drops. That stops funnelling loot to specific characters.

As someone said, I believe you missed the second part of the sentence you quoted. Forced personal loot is shitty enough for the Argus trinkets, if the entire game becomes like that we might as well replace it with a slot machine where the luckiest one wins.

[arizonapriest93]

First, let me say that I don't face the problems I outlined, but they are pretty common things to see.
Most of your points come down to "Blizzard did a poor job designing this item to be good, therefore let's give it to whoever it is least bad for". Tier is gone. Legendaries are gone. Titanforging is (well, we don't know details) reduced.

I will give you 1 point and that is using items as reward structure for attendance, but then you can make the same argument about giving priority of raid spots to those who show up, if you are figting attendance problems in the first place, reward structure is not your problem.



But you are not giving me reasons why master looter is inherently better. You are telling me how to fix problems that it inherently has in hands of many people, I didn't ask for that.

An item being good or bad will always happen. There will always be a BEST item. Sure at certain points it can change, but there will always be a this is best for this spec and bad for this one. That is why there are almost always various trinkets in the raid of different design to work with the many differently designed specs in the game. That's not poor design (sure the balancing could be better but that's not what you're referring to), they're simply creating variety.

Tier is gone but the azurite gear slots or whatever are in, those will be distributed similarly to tier, 100%, so same reasoning applies.

As for attendance issues not applying to reward structure. Uh no. It will always be a factor, another example is we have a 25 person roster. 20 slots. If someone is in for prog the entire time, then let's say they have their kid's birthday or StarWars comes out (my excuse next Thursday) or graduation (an officer's upcoming reason) or their wife is really sick, or other important event happens, so you bring in your bench person, and then they get bis. But that person who was there the whole time doesn't. There are many other scenarios here (trials vs main raiders, person with specific job on a fight, say has to do burst aoe at some interval, they should get a trinket that helps with that if needed). Your solution prevents that. Your solution is a massive overkill and removes human judgement from important decisions.

Sure it's pixels and gear etc, but it's a factor. I like being able to sit there and say "hey that piece is fucking exceptional for me, that relic (gone in bfa but works for this example) has my best trait, and it's a high tf'd piece, it's going to be the last relic I probably equip in a long time" vs a person who it's a middle of the pack. If I'm the first person, I'm pretty ticked off that the second person got that item in an rng system. If it was a human who gave it. I can at least have a conversation with them about why they were wrong. I can do something about it. I can even talk to the person who got the item. But in your solution I can't do shit, and that blows. It blows hard, all to solve a split raiding problem that, for most, doesn't exist or isn't massive.

Sheesh, it isn't hard to see the flaws in your position. I'm not saying shits dandy, I don't particularly like being geared last because I'm a healer, but I can understand it. I'd rather have the dps who have a big impact on the fights, get the gear so we can do shit, then get funneled or get rng to give me all my loot which would have almost zero impact on if a fight gets cleared or not.

[Daan]

I had expected that Coven will be the big wall boss, but unfortunately they aren't.

[Vestig3]

Aversion 9/11. Would be interesting to see more guilds at 10/11 before Argus is downed.

You sound like a sportcaster that says a team still has a chance while you know they dont, ofc it wont be interesting the gap method snd to a lessser extend exorsus have are big enough to say that.