Mega-Thread: Mueller investigation

[Breccia]

The gov't doesn't keep that money unless he doesn't show or it's seized after he's convicted.

I'll admit, I remember it because it seemed weird to me.

But the special counsel's office said in its court filing that "the proposed bail package does not provide for a surety who is not a close family member. It does not provide for GPS monitoring. And it does not provide for a fully secured bond of unencumbered real estate. The Bridgehampton property, which is the largest of the assets in the proposed bail package, is already subject to forfeiture in the Indictme

I fully admit I could have misread it, but that's what I saw that made me think "oh, he loses some of the property for doing this".

[Ripster42]

I'll admit, I remember it because it seemed weird to me.



I fully admit I could have misread it, but that's what I saw that made me think "oh, he loses some of the property for doing this".

Ya, that part about being subject to forfeiture isn't if he violates bail, it's if he loses the actual case.

[Breccia]

Ya, that part about being subject to forfeiture isn't if he violates bail, it's if he loses the actual case.

Makes sense. Thanks.

[Ripster42]

Makes sense. Thanks.

That's related to the part about not providing for a fully secured bond on unencumbered real estate. It means that all his property either has a mortgage or is due to be turned over if he loses the case. It's why they're making the argument about there not being enough to guarantee his appearance, because if he thinks he's going to lose, he'd have nothing holding him here as he would likely lose everything in the bail agreement anyway if he went to jail.

[Breccia]

Extra info from NBC.

In a new court filing late Friday, Robert Mueller's prosecutors say Paul Manafort heavily edited an op-ed defending his work in Ukraine that appeared Thursday in a Ukrainian English-language newspaper.

Manafort, former chair of the Trump presidential campaign, has been indicted on multiple counts in Mueller’s Russia probe, and the judge has imposed a gag order on both the defense and the prosecution.

Prosecutors had argued in a filing earlier this week that Manafort’s involvement in writing the op-ed piece violated the judge's gag order, citing the article in their opposition to his request to be released from house arrest on bail. Manafort’s lawyers responded that he had little role in its composition, and was helping Oleg Voloshyn, a former spokesperson for Ukraine's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, write the piece.

But in a document attached to Friday's filing, prosecutors say Manafort engaged in a line-by-line edit of the draft, making dozens of changes. "Manafort cannot bring himself to state that he had a role in drafting the op-ed, although that fact is established by irrefutable evidence."

reason why the conditions of his bail should not be relaxed.

Prosecutors also said Voloshyn was not the principal author of the piece, but that Manafort was working with Konstantin Kilimnik. In their earlier filing, prosecutors had said Manafort was working with an unnamed individual with ties to Russian intelligence. In Friday’s filing, they said that Kilimnik was the man they meant. Kilimnik worked closely with Manafort in Ukraine, where Manafort earned millions as a political consultant.

Another author of the piece, according to the filing, was Rick Gates, Manafort’s U.S. business partner. Gates was also indicted by Mueller and is under the same gag order.

Manafort was indicted by a federal grand jury in October on seven charges, including money laundering and failing to disclose his lobbying efforts on behalf of a pro-Russian political party in Ukraine. He has pleaded not guilty

Wow. "Irrefutable". That's pretty confident. Sounds like they have, I dunno, 400,000 of his emails or something.

EDIT: Also, HAHAHAHA Gates too! HAHAHAHA

[Shadowmelded]

Extra info from NBC.



Wow. "Irrefutable". That's pretty confident. Sounds like they have, I dunno, 400,000 of his emails or something.

EDIT: Also, HAHAHAHA Gates too! HAHAHAHA

Apparently the irrefutable proof they have is the fact he left "Track changes" on with his own name attached in Word.

[Breccia]

Apparently the irrefutable proof they have is the fact he left "Track changes" on with his own name attached in Word.

What is this, amateur hour?

[Ripster42]

Apparently the irrefutable proof they have is the fact he left "Track changes" on with his own name attached in Word.

Uh, I hadn't seen the texts from his daughter claiming her dad had people killed in ukraine before. The hell is that about?

[Shadowmelded]

Uh, I hadn't seen the texts from his daughter claiming her dad had people killed in ukraine before. The hell is that about?

Yeah happened a while back.

Manafort acknowledged that his daughter Andrea had been hacked and corroborated the authenticity of at least some of the texts between him and her, but declined to comment on most of them.

God, it was only February. I could have sworn it was summer of last year.

[lazypeon100]

Yeah happened a while back.



God, it was only February. I could have sworn it was summer of last year.

You're not alone. I've aged a few years in the span of 11 months.

[Edge-]

Apparently the irrefutable proof they have is the fact he left "Track changes" on with his own name attached in Word.

God damnit these people are stupid. I mean, normally I use track-changes at work, but the few times we've needed to "secretly" make some changes we've absolutely not left track changes on specifically for this reason.

Stupid Watergate continues to be an appropriate name for this clown show.

[Shadowmelded]

You're not alone. I've aged a few years in the span of 11 months.

I guess time dilation is to be expected when dealing with people this dense.

God damnit these people are stupid. I mean, normally I use track-changes at work, but the few times we've needed to "secretly" make some changes we've absolutely not left track changes on specifically for this reason.

Stupid Watergate continues to be an appropriate name for this clown show.

Baby's first conspiracy is my new favourite. A little wordy though.

[Thekri]

God damnit these people are stupid. I mean, normally I use track-changes at work, but the few times we've needed to "secretly" make some changes we've absolutely not left track changes on specifically for this reason.

Stupid Watergate continues to be an appropriate name for this clown show.

Not a huge John Oliver fan, but he did kind of nail it with that one.

Seriously, get a copy of "Treason for Dummies" or something. This is an embarrassment to the hardworking team of professionals Mueller put together, nailing your ass to the wall shouldn't be this easy.

[Ripster42]

Yeah happened a while back.



God, it was only February. I could have sworn it was summer of last year.

Wow that's pretty sketchy. Says her dad gave her $4 million then she later says she has no business connections or anything on paper that could be tied to him.

- - - Updated - - -

Not a huge John Oliver fan, but he did kind of nail it with that one.

Seriously, get a copy of "Treason for Dummies" or something. This is an embarrassment to the hardworking team of professionals Mueller put together, nailing your ass to the wall shouldn't be this easy.

I predict that this will be the title of a book about this period in history.

[Shalcker]

Uh, I hadn't seen the texts from his daughter claiming her dad had people killed in ukraine before. The hell is that about?

All i can guess is claim that supposedly Yanukovich killed those protesters with snipers to stop protests (which instead enraged everyone) and Manafort possibly advised that; claim about "government snipers killing civilians" that failed to be confirmed by Ukrainian courts/investigators later, but still very much was in media at the time.

[Breccia]

New info, or more to the point, bullshit:

Ukrainian author of Manafort op-ed says sought input to avoid errors

"Wait a minute, isn't that the same author who said Manafort didn't write it?"

Yes.

"And now, he admits Manafort did?"

Yes.

"Any other excuses he wants to try?"

Yes.

Voloshyn told Reuters that he was not contacted by Manafort’s lawyers in an attempt to stop him from publishing it.

“Who could forbid me?” he said. “What right does Mueller have to forbid me to do something?”

That's the "I didn't know it was illegal" defense, right there.

[Shalcker]

New info, or more to the point, bullshit:

Ukrainian author of Manafort op-ed says sought input to avoid errors

"Wait a minute, isn't that the same author who said Manafort didn't write it?"
Yes.

"And now, he admits Manafort did?"
Yes.

Stop with bullshit. That's NOT what he says.

"Sought input" is quite different from "Manafort written everything himself" (which is Mueller's claim). And he "sought input" not from Manafort but from Klimkin (who isn't under indictment or bail).

[Breccia]

And as more information becomes available, we see that Manafort and Gates emailed each other about a "press strategy" to defend their image (which, as Mueller puts it, contaminated the jury pool) as early as two days after Manafort resigned. Yes, August, way before he was indicted. So the OP ED he helped write, of which there's now both electronic evidence and also a witness confession, was part of a larger overall ploy.

Also:

Another email, dated September 5, 2016 from Gates to Manafort, contains a strategy memo titled "Outline of Issues." The document includes a section about "PJM work in Ukraine" with the first points being "1. Never worked in Russia or for Russians," and "2. Work was centered on pro-Ukraine efforts to enter into the EU."

Hmm...press Ukraine, didn't work for Russia...that defense sounds familiar...oh hey @Shalcker, didn't see you there. How's it going?

[Shalcker]

And as more information becomes available, we see that Manafort and Gates emailed each other about a "press strategy" to defend their image (which, as Mueller puts it, contaminated the jury pool) as early as two days after Manafort resigned. Yes, August, way before he was indicted. So the OP ED he helped write, of which there's now both electronic evidence and also a witness confession, was part of a larger overall ploy.

Was "possibly" part of larger ploy; either way media strategy is pretty obvious step given their demonization in media.

Also:
Hmm...press Ukraine, didn't work for Russia...that defense sounds familiar...oh hey @Shalcker, didn't see you there. How's it going?

Those are just completely obvious points that were ignored by both Mueller and Western media.

Also, August 2016 is way before bail agreement so it cannot be used as evidence of wanting to breach it (because it didn't happen back then yet).

[Breccia]

Also, August 2016 is way before bail agreement so it cannot be used as evidence of wanting to breach it (because it didn't happen back then yet).

Yes it can. It establishes a timeline, as well as intent, to make good PR. Perfectly fine until the bail agreement. Not so much afterwards. Manafort's limp-dick claim that he had nothing to do with writing the article is now refuted by means, motive, and opportunity. Oh, and a witness. The fact that he agreed to change public opinion before the bail agreement doesn't change the fact that he did so after the bail agreement -- all it does, is make it more clear he was going to, and proves it was in no way an accident, which I'll remind you, used to be the defense. Not so much anymore.

You're trying to argue that, because he was trying to change the opinion of the public before the bail agreement he willingly signed, it was okay for him to violate it after he signed it. I'm pretty sure that argument won't hold up in court. In fact, I think if it was a valid defense, they probably wouldn't have lied about Manafort working on the piece. But, they did. And now you're left back where you were before: parroting the "he worked for Ukraine not Russia" bit we now know he tried to use, to push the OP ED piece, that caused him to violate bail. I believe the term is "shrill" right @cubby ?