Out of control! Antorus normal be 945 and ahead of the curve Antorus or no invite

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

It feels like WoW = ilvl. Nothing more.

No, WoW = making friends and forging relationships with other players, so you can run group content with people who know you and what you are capable of. If you refuse to do this, you are choosing to have difficulties.

[Adlian]

This happens when titanforging is a thing and getting powerful gear is based on RNG. You cant trust high ilvl geared players anymore... im often seeing people with 940+ gear having no gems and no enchants - doing 400k dps. No wonder why people ask for achivms/M+ score and stuff.

[Swiftshadow]

1 - asking for 15 ilevels or more above what the instance drops is wrong obviously. but I understand people just wants the raid to be run as smooth as possible. However this is not welcoming to new people who may not have that exaggerated requirements. Any competitive game PvP or PvE that is not newbie friendly will not be popular for long. This is why DotA has bracket system whereby people climb gradually. Of course your group your rules is fair, but overall this will first alienate a huge part of the population and not to mention lower your own pool of people to choose from.

2 - Expecting people to have the required achievement for the run, I would say this is reasonable for a smooth run, provided it is AFTER the 1st two weeks of a raid release. Anything else is part overkill, part carrying, however you slice it. If requirements are unreasonably high, you may see like 20 applicants listed, but there could possibly be double that number afraid to join. Over time, these people will get bored and quit the game. Which is DEFINITELY not good for the game in the long term.

People tend to forget that WoW contains more casuals than serious raiders, and this holds more truth now than before. For every top 10 guilds who cleared highest content now on their server, that number was at least doubled in MoP and earlier. At least on my servers, and I raided every expansion besides WoD. The WoW community need to realize that if they want their game population to increase, or at least not drop, don't be over demanding and for eg. asking 950 ilvl for a M+10. Yes. I have seen this happen.

Blizz needs to somehow redesign their future raid difficulties so it's more accessible to players who don't have a regular raid group to pug. The current raid is good in that sense (as compared to ToS). As for M+, I would say the concept is good but the implemention and scaling of some of the affixes is bad. Which may be why people may be asking for over-blown item levels to compensate.

For an old game like WoW to continue surviving with decent popularity, the community has to well, be less toxic.

[Mlz]

This happens when titanforging is a thing and getting powerful gear is based on RNG. You cant trust high ilvl geared players anymore... im often seeing people with 940+ gear having no gems and no enchants - doing 400k dps. No wonder why people ask for achivms/M+ score and stuff.

Exactly this. People getting high ilvl gear from random world quests/LFR/whatever, and then trying to do content where their highest achievement is backpeddling into yet another group of trashmobs they had no idea about and dying to no-brainer mechanics continuously because moving from swirly shit and Blizz default warning screeching on your screen 'GTFO' isn't enough. And there are people who probably would rather want this high-level content to be cut since if they are not capable of doing it, noone else should access it either (unless people capable of doing higher level content are willing to carry dead weights, of course). Sad times

[Leadsop]

Buy a token. Sell it for gold, buy an ahead of the curve boost run. Save up 2 weeks worth of coins and coin in that boost run. Problem solved

OR...

Get your Wakening Essences, boost your leggos to 1000. Run some M+ and get 960+ chests. Kill World Bosses. LFR it up.

You can hit 945 in like a week, probably less.

- - - Updated - - -

Those people asking for that high ilvl are doing the run for Tier/trinkets. They're one-shotting for gear when they've already cleared Heroic/working Mythic. They're not there to teach low-geared people the fights.

There are PLENTY of "learning the fights/progression/920 ilvl" groups every time I open Group Finder.

[Sorshen]

Welcome to titanforging and legendary system. Hope you enjoy your stay.

[eldood]

You have to go even further bro, just make you own guild..

No, seriously, I hope Blizzard kills off AOTC achievements and the "Character progression chart" on the Armory. That alone would remove a good part of the LFR toxicity.

[Marrilaife]

Blizz needs to somehow redesign their future raid difficulties so it's more accessible to players who don't have a regular raid group to pug.

Yes, let's kill the last remnants of community by making everything balanced around pugs. The game is already catering a lot to commitment averse, anti social folk by giving tons of solo activities with compelling rewards, queuable modes for dungeons and raids and various pug tools. Not even mentioning this expansion introduced extremely potent catch up mechanisms mid raid tiers (instead of at the end), so you could literally outgear the raid tier midway through solo activities and then roftstomp it with other overgeared people.

[Greyvax]

the problem with some of the points made in this thread is that people assume that ilvl 945 means that said player has every item slot filled with 945 gear.

Not the case because of legendaries and other inflated loot such as TF. As someone who regularly does heroic, i still join normal pugs to fill in certain slots such as tier pieces and or just boredom and looking for nice WF/TF procs.

[Deleted]

1 - asking for 15 ilevels or more above what the instance drops is wrong obviously. but I understand people just wants the raid to be run as smooth as possible. However this is not welcoming to new people who may not have that exaggerated requirements. Any competitive game PvP or PvE that is not newbie friendly will not be popular for long. This is why DotA has bracket system whereby people climb gradually. Of course your group your rules is fair, but overall this will first alienate a huge part of the population and not to mention lower your own pool of people to choose from.

2 - Expecting people to have the required achievement for the run, I would say this is reasonable for a smooth run, provided it is AFTER the 1st two weeks of a raid release. Anything else is part overkill, part carrying, however you slice it. If requirements are unreasonably high, you may see like 20 applicants listed, but there could possibly be double that number afraid to join. Over time, these people will get bored and quit the game. Which is DEFINITELY not good for the game in the long term.

People tend to forget that WoW contains more casuals than serious raiders, and this holds more truth now than before. For every top 10 guilds who cleared highest content now on their server, that number was at least doubled in MoP and earlier. At least on my servers, and I raided every expansion besides WoD. The WoW community need to realize that if they want their game population to increase, or at least not drop, don't be over demanding and for eg. asking 950 ilvl for a M+10. Yes. I have seen this happen.

Blizz needs to somehow redesign their future raid difficulties so it's more accessible to players who don't have a regular raid group to pug. The current raid is good in that sense (as compared to ToS). As for M+, I would say the concept is good but the implemention and scaling of some of the affixes is bad. Which may be why people may be asking for over-blown item levels to compensate.

For an old game like WoW to continue surviving with decent popularity, the community has to well, be less toxic.

As a mythic 9/9 5/11 raider, I'm one of those that requires 950 for normal and AOTC since first week when I lead my own pugs on my alts. There's no reason I should settle for 930s guys when in 60 seconds after I start the group I literally have over 30 people 950+ signing up to choose from. I want a normal run to last not longer than 70/80 minutes, no one has time to waste to baby sit people.

That said, I also agree on your first 2 points. Thing is, there isnt really a solution. You're basically saying that we should be "less elitists" and help the community. But if i wanted to use my time to teach random strangers, deal with their mistakes, help them get better, then I would get a WELL PAID job as a trainer or teacher. I play WOW in my free time to have fun, and if i had to deal with all that i wouldnt even play anymore.
Truth is, WOW raiding is very different from DOTA2 or any MOBA. The reason why WOW is losing players and MOBAs in general are shining is not because WOW community is toxic or elitist... infact, MOBAs have the same toxicity if not worse. The reason is that WOW raiding requires a lot more time, much more coordination, and can be a lot less rewarding. On DOTA2 a casual player can log on, find a game pretty fast, play for an hour and then log off and even have fun if you lose the game. WOW raiding? One hour? In random pugs you kill few bosses and thats it. And if you wipe a lot you might waste most of that hour by sitting waiting for new people to join the raid, wiping, and getting 0 loot.
I think Blizzard knows that WOW isnt noob friendly compared to other games, and they did do a lot of things to help the casuals, they created LFR, they added flexible raids, they made a new difficulty (normal) that is much easier than what old normal used to be, they added so many ways to get gear (relinqued, weekly cache, extra seals). But they cant change the basic of what WOW raiding is, that requires a lot of time and people willing to coordinate with each others and be DECENT. I'm not saying GREAT to do cutting edge, but at least DECENT to do heroic. And truth is, MOST people arent even decent but total shit, and honestly some of them are like that because they do ZERO efforts to even try to get better. You cant change the very human nature of the people. Most people dont realize it, but only about 25% of the people in the world have more IQ than the average. Truth is, most people on earth arent really smart, to say it in a nice way. Schools, universities, jobs training, help even those less skilled or average get better to do something in life. WOW has nothing like that.
So yeah, nothing really can be done about it.

[Deleted]

I asked this morning 950ilvl to do m+13 and 15 after that and i've done both easily, and im gonna ask that + curve for NM / HC this week too, again, if you can get enough 950ilvl people to do the raid and all of them with curve why i should bother in getting lower ilvl people? this is about getting purple shit not about charity LUL.

You're part of the reason why the community is horrible now. Thanks.

[Zeidia]

You're part of the reason why the community is horrible now. Thanks.

you welcome.

Now, in a more serious note: Why in the hell i'm gonna ask less ilvl or don't ask for experience to do in PuG something? If you are in a guild i can understand that they ask for less ilvl since they are using voice chats and they are well coordinated after time of raiding but in a PuG where it's a lotery of skill? i'm sorry but i'm not up to "progress" with low skill people and i'm not saying i'm a god or something, but i know when to move when argus casts cone of death for example but 75% of PuG doesen't

P.S: after my previous post i actually did antorus HC 9/11 (but coven and argus) and NM 11/11 asking 950+ all that on less than 4 hours. Just saying.

[Miyagie]

Was yesterday in a 950+ Normal Raid and the lead did nothing, not one word to the group, we just one shot a boss, doing trash fast and then wait 10 min. on the next boss for the ready check no fucking idea what the lead was thinking and after 5 bosses the first left the group and after one wipe on the 7th boss half of the raid left.

[Eazy]

Their group, their rules. I see nothing bad with it.

[PogChamp]

considering AOTC is the easiest it's ever been and getting 945 ilvl takes a solid 2 weeks of effort i'd say it's a fairly low requirement to ensure the group clears it smoothly. find a group with lower ilvl reqs and when it goes really poorly because of low ilvl along with the fact that most people under 945 atm are casual bads you'll hopefully realize why ilvl requirements are a thing.

[Morssoe]

Conclusion = only heroic and mythic players pug and try luck with titanforging in normal raids. They look for players who have cleared same content eliminating MOST(NOT ALL) bad players.

[leorana]

Their group, their rules. I see nothing bad with it.

while true (their group ther rules) it's allraight to cirticize them for having stupid rules. even if we assume ilvl = skill, or simply contributes to facerolling, asking AoTC for a normal run it just stupid. it's a normal run and SoTP achieve or multiple kills (armory) should suffice. in fact, multiple kills are better indication than a possible bought AoTC achieve.

[HuxNeva]

This ilvl is pure bs, i've seen peoples with high ilvl in m+ performing really bad, and vice versa. Sure agree it ads up to raid dps or heal, but also dead played ads nothing.

What do you want? 'Link warcraftlogs for invite' for a Normal pug? People just use whatever convenient signal they can get.

- - - Updated - - -

Was yesterday in a 950+ Normal Raid and the lead did nothing, not one word to the group, we just one shot a boss, doing trash fast and then wait 10 min. on the next boss for the ready check no fucking idea what the lead was thinking and after 5 bosses the first left the group and after one wipe on the 7th boss half of the raid left.

He was probably watching the strategy vid for the boss

[Justpassing]

while true (their group ther rules) it's allraight to cirticize them for having stupid rules. even if we assume ilvl = skill, or simply contributes to facerolling, asking AoTC for a normal run it just stupid. it's a normal run and SoTP achieve or multiple kills (armory) should suffice. in fact, multiple kills are better indication than a possible bought AoTC achieve.

And they can criticize you but then they are toxic and scum of the world?

[Chromell]

People ask for that much because they want to stomp Normal, not progress through it (though AotC isn't really necessary).