New Leveling and Dungeon Finder - Still ruins the experience

[Lucetia]

If you dont mind me asking, how did you level your alts from level 100 to 110?

Let me answer that because i already know it
You leveled via quests in the world right? Because is the optimal way. (i know i can be wrong but at least this is what the majority do because is the optimal way)

Saying that you already know, when you don't is more of way to try and flex your side more when it's inaccurate. The first time I leveled 100-110 was via questing as I always do every expansion on my main and that was in the Beta. On live I ran a bunch of dungeons, some world quests, and waiting on the mission board XP ofr a lot of it.

Then on my alts once Invasions came around I leveled that way as it was the most optimum and quickest way for me. So no, it wasn't just leveling.

If you were playing a roleplay game; which I define and I believe is defined as creating a persona upon a different "virtual reality" then you would have to virtually walk your hiney to the dungeon. Just like you have to drive your car to work in "reality" - virtual reality should keep similarities. Role Playing should have certain dynamics that say "these are laws of the world, but is filled with magic and beauty and takes me away from factual realm to fantasy."

If you have done each 10 times (so 20 characters you have to 110 im assuming?) you may even have a number of dungeons under your belt. That argument of "tired of seeing same content" is slightly irrelevant because you are spam queuing the same dungeons for 100 levels xD.

Except in a roleplaying game you utilize what that world offers. In this case going to a dungeon could mean walking or teleportation because in the World of Warcraft teleportation is a traveling tool, just like in real life you have cars, boats, airplanes. We just don't have teleportation in real world......yet.

Also, just because I'm leveling to 100 doesn't mean I'm spam queuing for the same dungeons. I said I was doing RaF + BoA so basically I can do every dungeon to every other dungeon once while leveling up.

I run the same dungeon multiple times to be a completionist and grab every single item. The two are different and unrelated in how they work though.

[Rainal]

But isn't that what people did? Many people just sat in a major city and spammed channels, especially trade chat and then waited for people to hit the summoning stone.

But did those people get 40k experience bonus on top of doing a normal dungeon? Whilst removing the time it takes to get said bonuses?

However; I do not believe that would be the case CURRENTLY. Currently I think groups would be quick to gather with LFG/sharding. But perhaps change LFG where you look for others in that particualr area. Forcing people to engage content made, and preventing others from not engaging..

I understand your point though. If a person does not wish to play a game a developer intended it to be they won't. They will find every opportunity to jump over such feats.

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But what merits?! It's 5 times slower! What are the merits of leveling in the world!?
Its empty
Its slower
Its unrewarding

correct; it is overshadowed. It is like taking a job at mcdonalds vs taking a job at Apple. Not worth it; but if it were a true OPTION then it would be a a choice between APPLE and Microsoft. Which do you like more? Which rewards you? Which satisfies you. Currently only pay satisfies, not experience, not preference. Ease satisfies you, reward satisfies you, not the work itself.

[Deleted]

Wow...jesus...

Apparently people don't deserve rewards or fun unless they play in the way in which you approve of. Because they didn't "earn it" in the way that you prescribe.

FFS, I'm out. The stupid in this thread just reached toxic levels.

I am also done.
This is hair pulling levels of insanity. Goodnight.

It was good talking with you even though our opinions are different

[Rainal]

Saying that you already know, when you don't is more of way to try and flex your side more when it's inaccurate. The first time I leveled 100-110 was via questing as I always do every expansion on my main and that was in the Beta. On live I ran a bunch of dungeons, some world quests, and waiting on the mission board XP ofr a lot of it.

Then on my alts once Invasions came around I leveled that way as it was the most optimum and quickest way for me. So no, it wasn't just leveling.



Except in a roleplaying game you utilize what that world offers. In this case going to a dungeon could mean walking or teleportation because in the World of Warcraft teleportation is a traveling tool, just like in real life you have cars, boats, airplanes. We just don't have teleportation in real world......yet.

Also, just because I'm leveling to 100 doesn't mean I'm spam queuing for the same dungeons. I said I was doing RaF + BoA so basically I can do every dungeon to every other dungeon once while leveling up.

I run the same dungeon multiple times to be a completionist and grab every single item. The two are different and unrelated in how they work though.

You make solid and valid points, can I offer this -
Why exactly do you level with questing on your main at first? Do you feel as if the reward is equivalent with dungeoning? So why not experience the Lore right? That is what I want from leveling. I want it to be a choice. An option. It is not that with LFD. LFD is a system that overshadows leveling. If you want to spam 100 dungeons then you are welcome to, but why give you that bonus 40k experience? That bonus forces people's hands more so than the option betweeen leveling and spam dungeons. I just prefer people to not sit in dal (that is truly a preference not a design flaw I guess).

In a way I guess you COULD have LFD (opinion is you shouldnt so that world content isn't removed from a person's gameplay, but that can be seen as subjective), but LFD should not be so Overpowering of a system that it allows such ease and quickness for leveling.

Adversely they could have the quest journal teleport you to the area to begin quests in that area. Poof it is easy and fast and you still experience the lore, and if you experience the main questline you get 400k bonus experience. Then everyone would be questing; now LFD seems really dumb.

That last statement just hints that LFD is not a good system. If it could be replaced with something quicker and easier it would be in a heartbeat.

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Come back and take a look when 7.3.5 drops. LFD remains but dungeon running might be a lot more engaging since you will not be able to kill half the dungeon anymore in one swoop.

I also hope they remove the bonus exp. Shouldn't be there. The bonus experience are the quest in the dungeons themselves

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This. We all play our games (any games) differently. I for instance don't like season/ladder in ARPG's, I always just wanna mess around with builds/end-game, no reset.

This is an option of gameplay I see where you come from, but LFD creates such an overpowering experience and easement for players it is VERY and extrmely optimal. Almost as if that is the only way to play the game.

[Pickynerd]

Yeah, begging for a tank in chat at 2am was super fun...

[Ramahan]

Dungeon Finder needs to go

"Rain, I do not just sit in the city, I like to quest while doing so!"

Okay, iff I begin leveling a character that can only DPS, I will queu and quest at the same time too. This still tends to hurt the new intention with leveling. You dwindle down your ability to experience immersion. Imagine yourself still in Ghostlands at level 40 because of the dungeon finder queus popping mid quests, yet the leveling is scaling. You have no reason to experience the world, you can simply power level through the most efficient area while queuing for dungeons (which also scale.) With the bonus experience and the quests given throughout dungeons you fly through leveling. So what are some options to truly give a good experience?

Nerf the bonus experience forcing others to stray away from dungeon finder.

Years ago before LFG was implemented the major cities were a crowded mess with players, from lvl 15 up, and General and Trade were filled with nothing but LFG "Insert dungeon here" to the point that WTS and WTB didn't have a chance. Players seldom left because instances were just about the only way to gear up and folks didn't want to wait for you to fly in from the other end of Azeroth unless they had a Warlock since there were no Instance stones.
n Instance?
Your suggestion would send the game back to the game with few being "Immersed" in the game as they worked at getting a group for the Instance they needed. With your idea players wouldn't be able to return to where they had been questing and exploring before doing an Instance.

The reason LFG, queuing for BGs, Summoning stones, and LFR were added so Players could go out and Immerse themselve in the rest of the Games World while still be able to do Instances, raids, and BGs without haveing to stand in one place and spamming chat!

PS
If you are still in Ghostlands at 40 because of Instances then you've been standing in the Inn waiting for Instance groups to form!

[Rainal]

You are factually wrong. Something being tedious to me is based on my perception. You can't tell me that ripping out dungeon finder wouldn't make leveling tedious to me, that's just stupid of you to assume you could tell me what I would find tedious.

Don't talk to us like we just don't understand. I've done all this shit dozens of times and I don't want to do it again. If I wanted to do it again, I would, but I don't. The idea that the developers should force me to "enjoy" something that would actually just cause me never to level again is, frankly, moronic.

I get that you think you have this amazing insight into how the game should be played and it's difficult for you to accept that most people despise your idea. But you are going to have a lot more serious problems in life if you cannot accept that other people have completely valid opinions that are quite different than yours and trying to force people into look at things the same way you do will only bring you grief.

Would you not agree that LFD being so optimal and overpowering that is Creates a position for you to play such a style of leveling? When you say you have done this shit a dozen times; you understand me when I say I have seen wailing caverns a dozen times or even Scarlet Monestary. OR even that long and narrow barrens road (vanilla life) - just gets tiring. But what I am saying is this; scaling jabs at solving this. You get a choice, but if LFD is overpowering it seems like less of a choice and now, once again, you are stuck leveling.

Side note: I do not wish to talk down to you. I am creating an argument/rebuttal to your statements to have a formal discussion. Like your input when it is truly an input. You creating relativity out of our arguments and minimizing my opinion's is disheartening. However, if LFD is there; I too will be playing it.That is why I think it should be removed. That is not some spectacular insight and I welcome your disagreement, but would love for actual disagreements rather than being categorized as some bigot that does not HEAR your opinon; because I do. I want to discuss this for a reason. Not because it will change anything, but because it may help me understand why you think it doesn't take a core concept out of the game.

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Have you ever levelled a character after initial wave of levelling? I leveled my mage in TBC when 2.0.3 came out, you know what? Half of zones where I quested on my undead mage were empty. I rarely saw anyone in Brill, Silverpine and so on, prob as many people as I see now.

And there's no LFD. Yet people were elsewhere...

Probably on their mains, bc leveling was very tough. (to me was fun but that is a vanilla server post for a vanilla flavor opinion)
However - what if the world was engaging and very rewarding just like LFD? Then i could understand why LFD is an option - People want to experience dungeons and cook their ramen during 5 min queues. But LFD is more of a forced venture one must take to hit 110 as quickly as possible. Then people would be in those areas. Also; old LEGION areas are full of people you just have to shard into a group in that area. Which is beautiful technology imo.

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The problem with this is that immersion is completely subjective. What one person finds immersive may not be for another. People need to realize that they can't force their version of immersion on everyone.

Some people find it immersive traveling by foot in the ground, others by ground mount and some by air. The list goes on and on.

Y'all keep creating the word immersion into a relative/subjective term. The term itself calls for a certain level of engagement of mind in that particular subject (leveling being the case for us). If by subjective you mean only certain receptors in your brain have to go off and that could vary from different outputs of intelligence I could see that being valid. HOWEVER not many people want to be brain dead pressing "enter dungeon" That is not engaging to any levels of receptors. If at some point there was a study to show receptors of engagement in the brain - I feel as if questing may provide heavier receptors. that is not factual only opinion, but pressing 12345 in a dungeon seems pretty simple personally.

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I would personally never level again if Blizzard did what you want them to do and they forced me to grind through all the same shit I've done dozens of times. There is no proof that other people would make the game world perceptibly different in any way if you took away dungeon finder.

Plus, you think maybe Blizzard has done more reasonable analysis on the issue of what people really want than you have? They are a huge money making enterprise, you're just someone who whines and complains on a forum about how much better the game used to be.

Why are these things so hard to admit?

In any case, you masochists will not get your way on this, I am 100% sure. Classic is the experience you want, just unsub until then. They're not going to strip out QoL improvements in retail when they have something coming that will suit your special needs just fine.

I love the game. I want it to be experienced, and maybe my opinion won't be heard, BUT I am not whiningg. Just stating an opinion. I will play wow because I think it is a great game. I just think you take an aspect away with such a powerful system design as LFD.

ALSO if you are tired of doing the same shit all the time; dude me too. LFD and pressing a button a dozen times is sooooo grindy, but it is optimal. It is easy. It is the biggest bonus. Seems I have no option but to do LFD; and since I come across whiny I guess I can not have an opinion.

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Years ago before LFG was implemented the major cities were a crowded mess with players, from lvl 15 up, and General and Trade were filled with nothing but LFG "Insert dungeon here" to the point that WTS and WTB didn't have a chance. Players seldom left because instances were just about the only way to gear up and folks didn't want to wait for you to fly in from the other end of Azeroth unless they had a Warlock since there were no Instance stones.
n Instance?
Your suggestion would send the game back to the game with few being "Immersed" in the game as they worked at getting a group for the Instance they needed. With your idea players wouldn't be able to return to where they had been questing and exploring before doing an Instance.

The reason LFG, queuing for BGs, Summoning stones, and LFR were added so Players could go out and Immerse themselve in the rest of the Games World while still be able to do Instances, raids, and BGs without haveing to stand in one place and spamming chat!

PS
If you are still in Ghostlands at 40 because of Instances then you've been standing in the Inn waiting for Instance groups to form!

I am not saying go back to sitting in trade - i am offering LFG and sharding to take place. Powerful tech to be used. Y'all keep forcing this to say "I want vanilla rawr" but I am saying "DUde sharding is great! and LFG is great too (with sharding) so why not combine the two and get a group going for some WC while i am questing in barrens."

[Improtaight]

finishing reading your post OP, and my conclusion is you do not know what the word "immersion" means, yet - you use it gg

[Rainal]

finishing reading your post OP, and my conclusion is you do not know what the word "immersion" means, yet - you use it gg

Could you help me define immersion my friend? From my knowledge it means engagement of one's mind in a particular subject. So I don't believe pressing a button and sitting in stormwind is as immersive as engaging into the world. it could be, could you explain this better for me? what is your opinion (not trolling just want decent discussion and not simplified responses that are not articulated very well).

Thank you.

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Yeah, begging for a tank in chat at 2am was super fun...

This wouldn't exist because you would open up yoiur new LFG which is sharded with many other realms with more people looking for the same thing. Back then, it was you and 400 other people up at 2 AM; now it is you and 6000 other people at 2 AM

[oldgeezer]

Seriously? This was done in jest, right? Right!?

If you took me seriously then you are sadly more mistaken than someone who thinks that Hilaire Belloc is still alive.

[ls-]

Why exactly do you level with questing on your main at first? Do you feel as if the reward is equivalent with dungeoning?

The reason why many people level through new content on main via questing is to make sure that they unlock all the content that's hidden behind various reps, quest chains and so on, e.g., Suramar, initial WQ unlock. That's how things are early in xpack lifecycle, later people level via dungs and in case of legion by doing invasions.

It's all about efficiency, it's also true in Vanilla, esp if you had more than one char. If you had prior experience in other MMOs, levelling didn't take that long either, half a month w/o nolifing, the only downside of fast levelling in vanilla was inability to do content because there's too few capped people and even fewer people who had gear needed to do said content, so you basically had to wait till others hit lvl60.

[ThatsOurEric]

but classic doesnt offer the new quest chains and deeply woven and accurately written Lore as post cata does.Beautiful writing and game development dwindled down to "enter dungeon" button being pressed.

You are absolutely correct.

HOWEVER.

It is, and should be, 100% up to the players to be given the freedom to decide how they level
their characters. Your method takes away that choice, which from a developer standpoint, is
not only a step backwards, but would be something that the vast majority of the community
would **NOT** welcome.

[Florena]

If you don't want to use dungeon finder DON'T USE IT. It's that simple. You can have your immersive experience without it if you want.

Or wait for WoW Classic and play it instead.

[digichi]

Hmm this argument has been going since the inception of LFD.

As someone who tried all races/classes, when i'm levelling it's a rush to max level and LFD is the easiest/most efficient way to get there (til new expac content. They already addressed the issue there, as the exp is way less and it feels more efficient to just quest to level.)

I never tried the most of the revamped cata zones (like azshara) for all the years it's existed to be honest. It's probably cause i hated that they changed barrens so much (favourite zone) and never felt compelled to try it out. With the new level scaling (able to stay in lower zones for longer) i'll finally check that out and slowly get an allied race to max lvl for the mog. I just don't think removing dungeon finder at this point is all that great. New players will still want to check out all the zones and want to quest- vets just want to rush to max level at this point and they shouldn't be pentalized for it.

Best i think they could do is add incentive to use the manual way to form groups, instead of just removing LFD altogether. (Like when you open the LFD tab you get pop up that says you get a satchel with bonus gold/xp for completing a dungeon formed through manual means.) Its a decent alternative, if any.

[Darktbs]

I'm not trying to screw with other people's playstyle. Leveling via quests and LFD should be EQUAL.
If you are used to and enjoy the imba leet amazing overpowered l33t dank meme fast paced way of LFD
then
Leveling via Quests should also be imba leet amazing overpowered l33t dank meme fast paced way of leveling.

Thats just how things should be.

Which is impossible unless you want to make a boring and uninteresting experience.

You would need that every zone, Dungeon, pet battle and Bg gave the same XP amount in X amount of time, but that can't happen because zones had different terrains, quests, scenarios, stories and dungeons can range from 2 bosses to 10 bosses and bgs can differ if you lose or win.

Even with questing being the way to level, there was/is a optimal way to level in the old expansions, you can search for guides telling you which zones to pick since these will reward better xp with less time, ignoring other zones .

[Arkthugal]

Once classic launches. Blizzard will realize the mistakes they have made with certain changes to the game.

The only thing Classic is gonna do is confirm that they made those changes for a reason.

[hyphnos]

But what merits?! It's 5 times slower! What are the merits of leveling in the world!?
Its empty
Its slower
Its unrewarding

This would suggest the solution is to make the open world more rewarding, not to make dungeon levelling less so because in your own words that would make dungeon levelling empty, slower and unrewarding. That would make a great marketing campaign. Play WoW, where levelling in all cases is empty, slow and unrewarding!!

[Deleted]

WoW is immersive

Perhaps this is your experience, but this has never been the case for the majority of the playerbase. WoW was designed to have a very low threshold to entry from the very start (yes, even Vanilla was heavily a "solo experience" compared to the other MMOs that enforced grouping through class design) - and with that kind of design you lose immersiveness but instead you gain a large mass of players to play with. These players don't necessarily share the same "MMO ideals" as the niche players looking for immersiveness.

But yeah, WoW is not the niche immersive MMO you seem to describe. WoW is the bland MMO for the massses. LFG is just fine in that context.

[hyphnos]

The point shadow is trying to make is; optimization will overpower meaning/intent of a game. RPG puts a human like you into the position of a character that is magical/brute strength. Then communicating within the game to become stronger of that character you chose to roleplay. BUT if LFD is around you're pressing 1234 and seeing a number go up. That is a calculator. That is not a game.

So much opinion stated as fact like most of your other posts. Quest levelling isn't even a thing at all in a lot of MMOs and if it is a thing it is largely because of copying WoW, which was trying to get away from the EQ and other games model of chain killing. In EQ though the best levelling was not in slaying the equivalent of boars but dungeon crawling, which was far far more dangerous than anything that ever happes in WoW. So the levelling experience that you so worship is in fact boring as all shit to me and many others that have played games where there was actual challenge in levelling. That's just not where WoW puts it's challenge and whining that people aren't amused by trudging around the world collecting bears asses and killing x whatevers because some NPC spouts some "lore" at us as to why isn't going to make it interesting.

[BarosanuNr1]

At least with RDF you get to play with other people, and maybe once every ten dungeon runs you will even have talking in /party chat. With questing it's either just you alone, for tens and tens of levels, or the post-WotLK quest design which makes the presence of other players detrimental to your experience.