i'm really starting to worry

[AceofH]

Looking at overall Damage and even 75th percentiles will show you nothing about why to bring a rogue right now.

You want a rogue in progress on nearly every boss (except maybe Coven, but fuck that boss):
Garothi boss for the soaks and high burst damage on the cannons
War Council (using Shuriken-Combo to dominate the boss damage charts)
Portal Keeper for the easy debuff transportation from portal to portal aswell as really good burst damage to the mini Portal-Bosses
Eonar is a mix between Shuriken-Combo abuse on priority targets in add waves and high burst damage on the Sentinax add
Argus, Kingaroth and Aggramar again you just melt the prority targets in intermission phases

On Felhounds, Imonar and Varimathras you could argue about the need to bring a rogue but even there you are just as valuable for mechanics and OKish dps as on the other bosses, which is why rogues are still highly represented on the rosters for all guilds.

As progress in mythic should be the focus for classes to shine on, you should not worry right now as every non-idiotic raidleader will gladly take you in for mythic kills.

As for HC raiders that want to be top dps for every fight in an already easy raid in which other classes can just cheese and pad the dps meters better than rogues and for players that are worried about later stages in this tier when the other classes will just scale way better than rogue, yes...you will not have a good time.

If you are worried about the bad scaling and the months after progress is over, where your dps and utility will mater less than it does now, you should start to reach out to blizzard like the other classes did after they got nerfed (i.e. Warrior) so blizzard will maybe do something about that (or not, but you tried at least)

(90th percentile Boss Damage charts for Antorus HC and Mythic, so you can see we are not that shit as you think in doing damage that matters) :
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...s&difficulty=4

and what exactly do you think is going to start happening when everyone gets better gear?

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Fairly certain if every Rogue spec is at the bottom then Blizz has intentionally balanced them to be there and it's balance as intended.

Everyone seems to feel like balance happens in this vacuum where everyone should be at the exact same DPS without regard to any utility.

The other thing that people don't really pay attention to is that Blizz balances around social engineering. They are completely willing to push up classes that they'd prefer to see doing better and let others fall behind slightly.

The Utility tax was removed back at the end of burning crusade because blizzard felt no one should be balanced around what they bring to the raid outside of DPS.

As a rogue we cannot tank or heal, you know this, i know this.
we can survive some mechancs by virtue of cloak, feint, and cheat death yes, however so can other classes.

if you removed feint and cloak right now, rogues would have zero reason to be brought.

[ymirsson]

if you removed feint and cloak right now, rogues would have zero reason to be brought.

So every single raid leader between DONALDS SUPER RAID and Exorsus will bench them? Are you all playing with or against your raid? How many players do actually have to compete for their raid spot? It cant be more then 10% i guess, but then, those people actively CHOSE to play in a competetive environment, they could simply change class and fulfill their desire to dominate.

Of course there are people who actually see that this tier rogue gets weaker in comparison, live in their raid. But most people don't and more people then most shoudlnt care that much.

[Immunize]

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@AceofH

If you would read the whole post I mentioned it:

"and for players that are worried about later stages in this tier when the other classes will just scale way better than rogue, yes...you will not have a good time."

I'm stating only that rogue are good as of now. Later stages of this tier will hurt us badly due to poor scaling.

And as i also stated, maybe instead of keeping it lowkey or whining in mmo-c forums, we should do the warrior strat and just whine to Blizzard directly. Seems to work for them?

[Zabatakis]

The Devs do not hate rogues, there is just no reason to balance well. It's just not that big a deal to the bottom line. You might think killing 10% of their subs is a big deal, and you are right except.... nearly no rogue is going to cancel because of this alone.

[RobertoCarlos]

And as i also stated, maybe instead of keeping it lowkey or whining in mmo-c forums, we should do the warrior strat and just whine to Blizzard directly. Seems to work for them?

Best way to get blizzards attention is spamming the developers twitter handles.

Wouldnt recommend it though tuning is mostly done and the raid is gonna be out for a year. If people are not enjoying rogue then make an aff lock or boomkin and give us some peace and quiet. Sounds like the DH forum over here crying we are not number 1 at everything.

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The Devs do not hate rogues, there is just no reason to balance well. It's just not that big a deal to the bottom line. You might think killing 10% of their subs is a big deal, and you are right except.... nearly no rogue is going to cancel because of this alone.

Its called carrot on a stick round robin tuning.

Keep chasing the carrot, maybe this tier your class will be number 1! if not make a class that is and play the game more so we get more subs! ty!

[Ravingmad]

These are pure theorically stats, where you non-stop DPS, have no "role" to perform, and planets are alligned.

Our Frost Mage, Havoc DH and performing very well despite being in the Bottom5 ranks from this chart.

If you compare Ilvls too, it change a lot from 935-937 (RetPal 1st, WW monk last (28% lower)) to 959-961 (WW first, RetPalt 10-11% lower). Just to compare these 2.

I play RetPal since 2.6 (officially 3.0 where we went "BOOM"!), we were often in the mid/low tier, but I always managed to be a Top DPS in my guild nonetheless. Prove that the stats are WRONG! Have a little faith and show them what you're made of! (And if it still doesnt do it, just blame in on the class, its easier that way apparently.) Not all classes/specs are created equal, but at least you're not playing a Shadow Priest which got like... maybe 2 good expansion overall (like 3-4 tier max?)

We currently dont have any Rogue in our Roaster (they just seem to "Vanish", pun intended), so I can't compare right away, but even if he was doing 10% less even with fully optimisation, I would trade it any time just for that smoke bomb and AoE Stealth on pulls.

[Deleted]

These are pure theorically stats, where you non-stop DPS, have no "role" to perform, and planets are alligned.

Our Frost Mage, Havoc DH and performing very well despite being in the Bottom5 ranks from this chart.

If you compare Ilvls too, it change a lot from 935-937 (RetPal 1st, WW monk last (28% lower)) to 959-961 (WW first, RetPalt 10-11% lower). Just to compare these 2.

I play RetPal since 2.6 (officially 3.0 where we went "BOOM"!), we were often in the mid/low tier, but I always managed to be a Top DPS in my guild nonetheless. Prove that the stats are WRONG! Have a little faith and show them what you're made of! (And if it still doesnt do it, just blame in on the class, its easier that way apparently.) Not all classes/specs are created equal, but at least you're not playing a Shadow Priest which got like... maybe 2 good expansion overall (like 3-4 tier max?)

Bad guild if you were always top dps as ret paladin.

[ymirsson]

Bad guild if you were always top dps as ret paladin.

If they clear their target content, who cares? Progression is only a race if you choose to. And tell me, does your super elite guild has a damage meter ranking like simcraft charts suggest? And if not, are you eligible for ridicule too?

[Deleted]

If they clear their target content, who cares? Progression is only a race if you choose to. And tell me, does your super elite guild has a damage meter ranking like simcraft charts suggest? And if not, are you eligible for ridicule too?

Sure whatever makes you sleep at night.

[RobertoCarlos]

Sure whatever makes you sleep at night.

Or whatever keeps you playing WoW. Which is normally your guild and friends. Who don't really care that you could be doing 2-5% more damage with a different class.

And the guilds that do care dont last that long anyway so unless you enjoy filling out guild recruitment websites like you're looking for employment at a banking firm then whatever makes you sleep at night.

[Deleted]

Or whatever keeps you playing WoW. Which is normally your guild and friends. Who don't really care that you could be doing 2-5% more damage with a different class.

And the guilds that do care dont last that long anyway so unless you enjoy filling out guild recruitment websites like you're looking for employment at a banking firm then whatever makes you sleep at night.

still doenst take away from what i said before, if a ret pala is top dps then the other players are not doing their best. no one said that it wouldnt be viable for normal or heroic.

[RobertoCarlos]

still doenst take away from what i said before, if a ret pala is top dps then the other players are not doing their best. no one said that it wouldnt be viable for normal or heroic.

Maybe they dont have any warlocks and boomkins tab dotting everything to glory? I dont know. Ret pally isnt that terrible, got a lot of burst aoe with the right legendaries so maybe hes just a really good ret.

[Deleted]

Maybe they dont have any warlocks and boomkins tab dotting everything to glory? I dont know. Ret pally isnt that terrible, got a lot of burst aoe with the right legendaries so maybe hes just a really good ret.

im not saying that he is bad at all, im saying that if a ret is top dps then the other players are not doing their best since ret paladin is far from the best dps in the game.

[ymirsson]

im not saying that he is bad at all, im saying that if a ret is top dps then the other players are not doing their best since ret paladin is far from the best dps in the game.

You assume too much without knowing more then "there is at least one ret paladin in the raid".

But whatever makes you sleep at night.

[Socialhealer]

yeh elemental looks amazing in 3rd it can aoe wooo.

and as soon as the really hard single target bosses come along where soaking/survival is needed, no-one takes elemental shamans but 4 sub rogues are great!

stop looking at dps as everything, if you cannot do single target or soak, being a beast on aoe on the first half of the raid isn't helpful to getting 11/11.

[Deleted]

You assume too much without knowing more then "there is at least one ret paladin in the raid".

But whatever makes you sleep at night.

I don't even know what the fuck you are trying to defend at this point really.

[ymirsson]

I don't even know what the fuck you are trying to defend at this point really.

I'm not defending anythng, i'm attacking the point you are trying to make, because it is weak. Almost as weak as Ret palas.

[Lemondish]

Seen this same song and dance for about 13 years.

Nobody else is worried.

[Deleted]

Seen this same song and dance for about 13 years.

Nobody else is worried.

except its true right now, rogues dont scale well, Outlaw is broken beyond repair, sub has no scaling and will fall off more and more the better your raid is geared and sin is just flawed and weak

[RobertoCarlos]

except its true right now, rogues dont scale well, Outlaw is broken beyond repair, sub has no scaling and will fall off more and more the better your raid is geared and sin is just flawed and weak

People wont even be playing legion for that much longer. You really gonna raid autorus for the next year and upgrade your trinket? Hard pass thanks.

Personally Ive had enough with legions RNG systems and the class design is still shit post pruning. So if you're not having fun with rogue, play a different game imo. Can recommend divinity original sin 2. Great game. And you dont need to worry about your mythic raid spot being given to an aff lock which seems like everyones fear even though thats hardly likely to happen unless you are in a try hard guild that has to compensate because its lack of raid co ordination and has to roll with the FOTM OP stacking classes.