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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    We didn't start that war.
    You definitely started bombings and intervened on one of the sides.

    So the US State Secretary started a war by visiting?
    They felt enough encouragement to act - and they had actual NATO instructors in their forces at the time of their invasion into South Ossetia. As well as NATO ships suddenly feeling urgent need to come into Black Sea after invasion failed.

    I'm sure that had nothing to do with the years of corruption and economic problems and violent assault on protesters.
    When you encourage coups you exploit those years of corruption and problems; but things could easily stew for many more years without your encouragement.

    If you turn up the heat on boiling pot then shut lid tight, are you responsible for explosion? Water was boiling already, after all, and steam was technically there all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    If you believe I did, then surely you can quote me on it?
    Context is important. I talked about NGOs with foreign funding fighting against being registered as foreign agents, and you responded with "conspiracy theory" quip.

    Yes, it doesn't automatically make it Russian meddling.
    It depends on the context and particulars.
    Okay, fine.

    And I'm not rejecting anyone's call for more transparency.
    But in the case of Russia history has unfortunately taught us that we need to be suspicious.
    It's probably a pretext to create a hostage situation for international blackmail.
    And case of EU/US history taught us that we need to be suspicious of their claims too.

    Even their claims about "supporting democracy".

  2. #62
    How did I know from the thread title that it would be a russian shill post?

    Oh, I wonder.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    I'm sure that had nothing to do with the years of corruption and economic problems and violent assault on protesters.
    And russian interference. I'm totally sure that had nothing to do with it either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    And russian interference. I'm totally sure that had nothing to do with it either.
    People with stones, glass houses?

    You're saying it as if US interference never ever happened...

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    People with stones, glass houses?

    You're saying it as if US interference never ever happened...
    I mean, some americans were there. But the ones we have evidence of that were there and illegally meddling in the election seem to have russian ties to them. You know, russia's puppet that was extracted by russia's military to avoid high treason charges.

    You are clown shoes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  6. #66
    Pandaren Monk wunksta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    People with stones, glass houses?

    You're saying it as if US interference never ever happened...
    The US has interfered in a lot of countries and done many terrible things. Most Americans are willing to admit that.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    And case of EU/US history taught us that we need to be suspicious of their claims too.

    Even their claims about "supporting democracy".
    Sure, especially the US and the UK.

    Especially their claims of supporting democracy.

    But there is suspicion and there is using a pretext to create bargainin chips out of something unrelated.
    Last edited by Noradin; 2017-12-11 at 05:54 PM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    I mean, some americans were there. But the ones we have evidence of that were there and illegally meddling in the election seem to have russian ties to them.
    Or US ties, like Manafort...

    You know, russia's puppet that was extracted by russia's military to avoid high treason charges.
    Because EU and US actually refused to follow through with pre-agreed plan (under which EU foreign ministers even signed) that had running early elections among other things......

    1. Within 48 hours after the signing of this agreement will be adopted, signed and promulgated a special law that will restore the action of the Constitution of 2004, as amended by this time. The signatories declare their intention to create a coalition and form a national unity government within 10 days thereafter.
    2. Constitutional reform balancing the powers of President, government and Parliament will be started immediately and completed in September 2014.
    3. Presidential elections will be held immediately after the adoption of the new Constitution, but no later than December 2014. Will adopt a new electoral law, and also formed a new composition of the Central election Commission on a Pro rata basis in accordance with the rules of OSCE and Venice Commission.
    4. Investigation into recent acts of violence will be conducted under the overall monitoring of the authorities, opposition and the Council of Europe.
    5. The authority will not impose a state of emergency. The government and the opposition will refrain from the use of force.


    Agreement that was actually followed by Yanukovich...

    You are clown shoes.
    So are you.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Or US ties, like Manafort...
    Who do you think I was talking about?

    The US didn't topple the government and cause russia's extraction dude. Sorry you're bad at this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  10. #70
    The Undying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/johnhudson/...2Oa8#.rgjBpgv0

    A second senior State Department official said any potential gains would come at too high a cost. “We would have to give up democracy promotion in Russia, which we’re not willing to do,” said the official. == "we would have to give up our own meddling"

    “We see them as enhancing existing desires by civil society to organize themselves and play a role in their own society.” - that's exactly what IRA did by organizing their protests and counter-protests!

    Note: Russia proposed a "ban on deception operations in cyberspace" in 2009 and 2011. United States rejected those proposals too.
    God, you just never quit, do you? Are you getting paid per word that you link as well now?

    How can you take this story with any sense of reality. We KNOW Russia interfered with the U.S. election. It's FACT now.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    And if most venues of public speech are corporation-controlled, and all those corporations engage in censorship, is it not "corporations meddling in speech"?

    Which, arguably, is worse - you did not elect those corporations.
    But you're arguing for something that would violate the 1st amendment, as it would require the government getting involved.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Who do you think I was talking about?
    The US didn't topple the government and cause russia's extraction dude. Sorry you're bad at this.
    They actually did; that's Russian view.

    And we can agree to disagree here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    God, you just never quit, do you? Are you getting paid per word that you link as well now?

    How can you take this story with any sense of reality. We KNOW Russia interfered with the U.S. election. It's FACT now.
    Well, we'll be living in a world where everyone does in every election now.

    Going to be interesting times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brubear View Post
    But you're arguing for something that would violate the 1st amendment, as it would require the government getting involved.
    I just said that corporate censorship - "make voicing that opinion of yours online illegal" ~= being punished with no accountability with available corporate tools - can be possibly worse.

    And we've seen how Government can easily nudge them in "appropriate" directions - see their reactions to Congressional inquiries.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    They actually did; that's Russian view.

    Noone cares about the Russian view.

  14. #74
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    This guy figured out how to make stupid Americans think the US wanted election meddling. Russian propaganda trolls hate him! Click here to learn more.
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
    2023: "What's with all these massively successful games with ugly (realistic) women? How could this have happened?!"

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Noone cares about the Russian view.
    If you would you wouldn't bother to mention this every time.

    This passive-aggressive denial is counter-productive :P

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