Time to buff BM?

[Vuudoo]

Looking at all the parses from 99 down to 40 percentile, BM is dead last in all of them. What can be done, quickly, to help us out? I would like to see them buff Mantle again and just give us a flat damoooooge boost. I think BM is in the worst shape it has been all expansion.

[Gasparde]

BM needs weapon scaling on skills instead of AP scalings, problem solved.

[Yakibob]

In before “BM is fine, they have mobility”

[SinR]

what ever happened to the days of "play what you want"?

fuck charts and meters and stuff, I wanna have fun. BM is fun. What's wrong with that?

[Tehterokkar]

BM is fine, there are just a lot of BM players that are bad or have the wrong gear, like no T19 that are making things look worse.

But almost every top hunter is already wearing T21 2pc instead right now. And to add to that, T20 4pc is going to see a lot of use still, so people that don't have high iLvl T20, they are going to suffer.

Heroic Logs are also stupid misleading as usual and it simply boils down to 2 things; It's heroic and people are going to pad and Hunters in general are very bad at sniping damage on fast dying adds(BM more-so), which only makes the logs look worse than they are.

I was 5th on our Imonar kill and 2nd on our Kin'garoth kill. Hardly calls for buffs, just git gud.

[Moozart]

Looking at all the parses from 99 down to 40 percentile, BM is dead last in all of them. What can be done, quickly, to help us out? I would like to see them buff Mantle again and just give us a flat damoooooge boost. I think BM is in the worst shape it has been all expansion.

Considering this is the last raid I dont think we are going to see any major changes to BM, I wouldn't get your hopes up sport

[ydraw]

BM is fine, there are just a lot of BM players that are bad or have the wrong gear, like no T19 that are making things look worse.

But almost every top hunter is already wearing T21 2pc instead right now. And to add to that, T20 4pc is going to see a lot of use still, so people that don't have high iLvl T20, they are going to suffer.

Heroic Logs are also stupid misleading as usual and it simply boils down to 2 things; It's heroic and people are going to pad and Hunters in general are very bad at sniping damage on fast dying adds(BM more-so), which only makes the logs look worse than they are.

I was 5th on our Imonar kill and 2nd on our Kin'garoth kill. Hardly calls for buffs, just git gud.

BM is fine on single target fights but absolute dog shit on AOE and council type fights. They just need to address BM's cleave.

The top AOE specs like Balance Druids are doing close to *double* BM's damage on fights like AHC. That is an unacceptable disparity.

Giving BM the old serpent sting/serpent spread would go a long way towards solving the problem.

[Sencha]

BM is fun.

Seriously? Oo

[Aesde]

Time to play MM.

[Skylarking]

Time to play MM.

Or maybe

survival

[Shakou]

BM is fine

Parses say otherwise. They are not "fine". If you are doing better than most of your raid most of your raid sucks.

[Dracodraco]

Parses say otherwise. They are not "fine". If you are doing better than most of your raid most of your raid sucks.

Mfw a top 50 guild sucks. Might want to figure out what you think the barrier for "not sucking" is.

No, but seriously, BM is totally fine. MM is stronger, BM is more mobile, and hunters are 100% being used and taken for every single boss (including one as restrictive as Coven). The only things that should reasonably be adressed are:

1: The utter reliance on old-tier gear (2Pc is OK, but being punished for only having 930-935 T20 because I played an alt in Tomb for all of KJ progress, and thus never got high tier pieces as my hunter was obviously not a priority when it wasn't being taken for KJ is pissing me off; I can live with being forced into using my 2x best T20 for 2pc, but the 4 pc should NOT be superior still).

2: How stupidly powerful Arcano is for BM/MM. I'm 125+ veiled trinkets deep on both my warlock and hunter now, and they've still yet to get them. Being 40-50K dps lower than some other guy just because I haven't lucked out in the trinket lottery yet is stupid as well.

TL;DR - BM is fine if you have everything you need for it to be fine. Most people don't, even at high mythic levels, because it's fucking RNG based all of it.

[Shakou]

Mfw a top 50 guild sucks. Might want to figure out what you think the barrier for "not sucking" is.

Suck can mean a lot of different things. When I'm saying it here, I mean if a BM hunter is doing significant dps above most of the group, everyone below him cannot possibly be that optimal.

Also nice contradiction bro.

No, but seriously, BM is totally fine.

TL;DR - BM is fine if you have everything you need for it to be fine.

Also top 50? According to his armory in his post he is only 11/11 heroic.

[Nythiz]

In before “BM is fine, they have mobility”

This argument holds true on patchwork fights.

If you have a completely static fight with little to no movement involved, and BM is low on the damage charts; you can pull out this argument.
And it would be somewhat fine, because with BM you trade top end damage for a more mobile and flexible talent spec in raids.

However BM is also biting the dust on the very HIGH mobility fights. And then there is something really wrong because either:

a) The spec's damage is not up to par
or
b) The whole benefit of being fully mobile in fights is extremely overrated.

And I think it's a little of both.

[ydraw]

Mfw a top 50 guild sucks. Might want to figure out what you think the barrier for "not sucking" is.

No, but seriously, BM is totally fine. MM is stronger, BM is more mobile, and hunters are 100% being used and taken for every single boss (including one as restrictive as Coven). The only things that should reasonably be adressed are:

1: The utter reliance on old-tier gear (2Pc is OK, but being punished for only having 930-935 T20 because I played an alt in Tomb for all of KJ progress, and thus never got high tier pieces as my hunter was obviously not a priority when it wasn't being taken for KJ is pissing me off; I can live with being forced into using my 2x best T20 for 2pc, but the 4 pc should NOT be superior still).

2: How stupidly powerful Arcano is for BM/MM. I'm 125+ veiled trinkets deep on both my warlock and hunter now, and they've still yet to get them. Being 40-50K dps lower than some other guy just because I haven't lucked out in the trinket lottery yet is stupid as well.

TL;DR - BM is fine if you have everything you need for it to be fine. Most people don't, even at high mythic levels, because it's fucking RNG based all of it.

Arcano is stupidly powerful for a lot of classes. That's a problem with trinket itemisation rather than the class itself.

Do you really think BM is fine on AOE fights? It's one of the worst, if not the worst spec in the game for AOE and Council fights. And pretty poor in M+ too.

[threads]

time to nerf t19 reliance and buff to compensate. t21 still ass too.

[Emerald Archer]

No, but seriously, BM is totally fine. MM is stronger, BM is more mobile, and hunters are 100% being used and taken for every single boss (including one as restrictive as Coven).

Correct, except for Aggramar, Hunter is really bad there. But it's okay to have a fight we're bad at. That's normal.

[Dracodraco]

Suck can mean a lot of different things. When I'm saying it here, I mean if a BM hunter is doing significant dps above most of the group, everyone below him cannot possibly be that optimal.

Also nice contradiction bro.

And I'm saying he's in a guild where pretty much everyone *does* play as optimally as you can expect them to. They raid 3 days a week and have been placing between top 50 and 100 this entire expansion. You can't get to a much higher level in terms of average skill.

Also, not really a contradiction, is it? BM is perfectly fine at the level it's currently tuned. It just requires you to have items that are stupidly hard to get, but that's not an issue with the spec, that's an issue with the tuning of tier bonuses. Of course you'll see BM doing a lot worse if you have a ton of people trying to make it work without those items. It's like seeing a disc priest try to make disc work without the class ring / velens as their legendaries. Can it be done? Sure. But it'll be suboptimal as fuck and give a bad impression of the potential.

Also top 50? According to his armory in his post he is only 11/11 heroic.

It also only says he's killed heroic once, and it says he's 9 item levels lower than he actually is if you look at their Kingaroth kill on wowprogress. Surprise surprise, the armory is unstable and not updating, and it hasn't been for a fucking *week*.

Arcano is stupidly powerful for a lot of classes. That's a problem with trinket itemisation rather than the class itself.

Do you really think BM is fine on AOE fights? It's one of the worst, if not the worst spec in the game for AOE and Council fights. And pretty poor in M+ too.

I don't agree that it's a problem with trinket itemisation, actually. I think it's an issue with the general class tuning. You shouldn't put more value on 4K secondary stats than on 1.5k secondary stats and 3K agility (a 935 statstick) - agility should always be the most sought after stat, because it would solve pretty much all the issues of being forced to farm old gear at base value (titanforging up to current values is, of course, still a thing but eh).
This is partly also because we get less and less secondaries the better our gear gets, compared to previously; Take a look at the jump in agi from a 880 statstick to 910, and then the jump in secondaries on Arcano with the same gap. Waaay more agility. If Agility was the best stat at the same time, that means our new tier being weak wouldn't be a huge issue as the ilvl would bridge that gap quicker, arcano not mandatory because a 950 trinket can actually compete etc etc.


As for BM being fine on AOE fights, I need you to clarify what you view as an "aoe" fight, because as of right now, the only one I would classify as such is Eonar - and even that fight is designed so that specs that don't have great AOE still has important stuff to do (destroyers/purifiers/obfuscators), so it's not a huge issue there.

If you classify a council fight like Coven or the dogs as AOE, then again I don't think there's an issue with BM there. Not every spec is ment to perform well in a spread-out cleave scenario. Mages can't do shit on those two fights either in terms of multidotting, and melee outside of *maybe* ret paladins/enh shamans on Coven with good tanks are shafted as well. Hunters have always been a *physical* dps class, and has suffered the same issues as Melee because of it - this means spread multidotting has never actually been part of a hunters general "toolkit". There was a brief period when Arcane shot applied serpent sting where it was worth rolling SS on spread targets, but that was such an extremely minor benefit (~3-4% dps) that most didn't bother and it never really took hold.

BM being the worst AOE, I don't personally think so. Hunter is literally *the* most represented DPS class in M+, and I don't think it'd be a far reach to assume that the split between MM/BM is roughly the same as it is for raids (especially with BM providing better utility for M+), which is a huge amount of BM hunters being taken to something that's almost entirely constant AOE.

Keep in mind though that my own experiences with BM's AOE is probably skewed by the fact that I have a nighthold 2 set that I won't ever unequip for multi-target scenarios (915+socket cloak, 925 legs), which gives a HUGE aoe bonus to stomp.

Correct, except for Aggramar, Hunter is really bad there. But it's okay to have a fight we're bad at. That's normal.

That's fair, I really haven't seen enough of aggramar to be sure of anything there. Looking at the last phase I'd guess MM with the belt will dominate entirely, because you can basically get 100% free damage on the adds (globals spent multi-shotting them will stack up enough sentinel stacks that it's a dps gain to multishot them rather than arcane shot the boss).

[Emerald Archer]

That's fair, I really haven't seen enough of aggramar to be sure of anything there. Looking at the last phase I'd guess MM with the belt will dominate entirely, because you can basically get 100% free damage on the adds (globals spent multi-shotting them will stack up enough sentinel stacks that it's a dps gain to multishot them rather than arcane shot the boss).

Yeah but dmg isn't everything, the dmg is fine, but there's SO much outgoing dmg and we're so squishy, and you need a HUGE amount of cc for the adds, because it lasts for a reduced time. (AoE cc, not st cc)

[Dracodraco]

Yeah but dmg isn't everything, the dmg is fine, but there's SO much outgoing dmg and we're so squishy, and you need a HUGE amount of cc for the adds, because it lasts for a reduced time. (AoE cc, not st cc)

I mean, BM is better suited than MM for sustain, as BM does have ~50-60K passive HPS from spirit bond (and prydaz is one of the best legendaries), so that's not a bad thing for BM. The only classes with better self sustain are warlocks and shadow priests (who are obvious FOTM picks anyway).

As for the CC, I just watched Memento's kill but it didn't seem that bad. 1x blood DK and 2x normal grips them all together, and then you just kite them behind the boss in a blizzard, no more CC needed. For singletarget, BM can both wyvern sting and trap (I don't think Sleep is on the same DR as most other cc, so wyvern sting should be really strong) while handling the intermission, and as just said, afterwards, you shouldn't need much AOE CC if you do it the way Memento did.