How/why were the pantheon able to defeat Sargeras this time and not the first?

[Dequanacus]

How is opening that portal, saving us (and Azeroth) in process, a selfish or douche act? ._.? Even ignoring that thanks to the portal, we barely manage to make it in time to save the Pantheon's souls as it's after the fact and Illidan should have no idea about the Dark Pantheon - if he didn't open that portal, we'd die and all the artifacts would be lost to the Legion. Without us and with the Legion getting their hands on all those artifacts, Azeroth would certainly be doomed by the time they get to it next. In other words, it would only delay Azeroth's certain doom by another few years to a decade. Illidan's other acts might be debatable, but opening that portal allowing the most powerful heroes and three of most powerful Azerothian beings on our side to survive is definitely a good, beneficial act for us.

One can do something good with selfish motives. No matter how beneficial an act it may be, a selfish motive is a selfish motive. Not arguing whether what Illidan did was selfish or not but an act can be good with the person doing it having selfish intentions behind doing it.

[TheFirstOnes]

One can do something good with selfish motives. No matter how beneficial an act it may be, a selfish motive is a selfish motive. Not arguing whether what Illidan did was selfish or not but an act can be good with the person doing it having selfish intentions behind doing it.

I guess destroying the Burning Legion is a selfish "Motive" then?

[Aucald]

I guess destroying the Burning Legion is a selfish "Motive" then?

From Illidan's perspective, yes. There's no altruism in Illidan's nature - everything he does is a product of his self-aggrandizing nature, even if the end product of his pursuits is a net positive such as the protection or preservation of Azeroth.

[Magnagarde]

We don't know what is happening over there. For all we know Sargeras could've wiped the floor with them all one he got summoned to the platform.

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I guess destroying the Burning Legion is a selfish "Motive" then?

Yes. One thing many people usually get wrong as of Legion is that Illidan is a good guy through and through, simply because Xe'ra told us Illidan is redeemed/redeemable/wasn't wrong in the first place.

[Aquamonkey]

No, it was Sargeras all alone against the Pantheon.

Infuriated by this unthinkable murder, the Pantheon launched an all-out assault on Sargeras and his Burning Legion.
--Chronicle V1

1 - Sargeras is not at full bodily power, since he was still reconstituting from the Shattering, where the portal blowing up while he was traversing it rent his essence to bits

Retcon. Nothing happened to Sargeras' body when the Well collapsed. It just pushed him back into the Nether.

As Sargeras prepared to emerge from the portal, the Highborne's spellwork unraveled and an unstable vortex of arcane energies ignited within the Well of Eternity. The fount buckled in upon itself. In that moment, Sargeras was ripped back into the Twisting Nether.
--Chronicle V1

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Yes. One thing many people usually get wrong as of Legion is that Illidan is a good guy through and through, simply because Xe'ra told us Illidan is redeemed/redeemable/wasn't wrong in the first place.

Illidan literally says he has sacrificed everything to save Azeroth. How is that selfish?

[Magnagarde]

Illidan literally says he has sacrificed everything to save Azeroth. How is that selfish?

Because he sacrificed thousands of other lives for something he wants to do. He made absolutely no sacrifice of his own.

Why did the Moonguard have to die by his hands, so he can achieve "his" sacrifice? Why did the Broken of Outland get enslaved, so he can achieve "his" sacrifice? Why did he pump orcs up with fel? I guess for "his" sacrifice?

He calls the sacrifice his, but the sacrifice was never his; it was of those around him. He has imperiled and hurt everyone around himself and imposed his own vision on the characters and people around him, often taking their life in the process. He is simply an arrogant character and - refering directly to what you said - it is obvious an arrogant character would talk about himself only, ignoring all the damage and suffering he caused.

He made no sacrifice at all because the only time he had to sacrifice himself, his ideas and not be selfish was when Xe'ra wanted to turn him into a Lightforged. He has a problem with others deciding his destiny, while having no problem deciding the destiny of others himself.

[Aquamonkey]

Because he sacrificed thousands of other lives for something he wants to do.

Illidan: You wish to know the difference between the demons and us? They will stop at nothing to destroy our world.
Kor'vas: ... and we will sacrifice everything to save it.

"I sacrificed everything and in your ignorance you imprisoned those capable of saving our world."

[Magnagarde]

Illidan: You wish to know the difference between the demons and us? They will stop at nothing to destroy our world.
Kor'vas: ... and we will sacrifice everything to save it.

"I sacrificed everything and in your ignorance you imprisoned those capable of saving our world."

You chose to ignore the rest of my post?

All he sacrificed was never something of his own; he always sacrificed others, their lives and their lands. What he says in character in the game or elsewhere are just in character traits of an arrogant character.

Because he sacrificed thousands of other lives for something he wants to do. He made absolutely no sacrifice of his own.

Why did the Moonguard have to die by his hands, so he can achieve "his" sacrifice? Why did the Broken of Outland get enslaved, so he can achieve "his" sacrifice? Why did he pump orcs up with fel? I guess for "his" sacrifice?

He calls the sacrifice his, but the sacrifice was never his; it was of those around him. He has imperiled and hurt everyone around himself and imposed his own vision on the characters and people around him, often taking their life in the process. He is simply an arrogant character and - refering directly to what you said - it is obvious an arrogant character would talk about himself only, ignoring all the damage and suffering he caused.

He made no sacrifice at all because the only time he had to sacrifice himself, his ideas and not be selfish was when Xe'ra wanted to turn him into a Lightforged. He has a problem with others deciding his destiny, while having no problem deciding the destiny of others himself.

[Nnyco]

Well, A. The Seat of the Pantheon combined all of the Pantheon's Power to Sargeras, hence grabbing his ass.

And, also, B. Argus, even as a DEAD World Soul, had enough fucking Power to act as the Final Blow to Imprison Sargeras, forever.

And note that this Titan, even when tormented, could cast this: http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=256544/end-of-all-things

AND YES, SINCE MYTHIC IS CANON, AND SENSE HE STILL CASTS THIS SHIT, I WILL CONFIRM THAT THIS IS BOTH A LORE SPELL, AS WELL AS A CANON SPELL!

he casts end of all things in any difficulty, even lfr

[Beloren]

Yes, and we did fall. Hence why Argus casted his 15 SECOND End of All Things ability. Was never stated to be a Fraction of a Second spell. He had to wait until the right moment to cast this ability. This thing requires a LOT of concentration, And, he was close to succeeding as well. But, Eonar ressed us, and Plot buffed us. :/

But if the ability truly was the end of all things, then technically, the Pantheon should have been destroyed by it as well and Eonar not able to rez us right?

[Sparklelord]

But if the ability truly was the end of all things, then technically, the Pantheon should have been destroyed by it as well and Eonar not able to rez us right?

Your confusing End of all Things with Reap Soul

[Magnagarde]

But if the ability truly was the end of all things, then technically, the Pantheon should have been destroyed by it as well and Eonar not able to rez us right?

Technically, there should be world left to return to and we should all be stuck in the Seat of the Pantheon for all eternity.

[Beloren]

How is opening that portal, saving us (and Azeroth) in process, a selfish or douche act? ._.? Even ignoring that thanks to the portal, we barely manage to make it in time to save the Pantheon's souls as it's after the fact and Illidan should have no idea about the Dark Pantheon - if he didn't open that portal, we'd die and all the artifacts would be lost to the Legion. Without us and with the Legion getting their hands on all those artifacts, Azeroth would certainly be doomed by the time they get to it next. In other words, it would only delay Azeroth's certain doom by another few years to a decade. Illidan's other acts might be debatable, but opening that portal allowing the most powerful heroes and three of most powerful Azerothian beings on our side to survive is definitely a good, beneficial act for us.

Sort of reminds me of something blizzard wrote when giving the reason why we don't kill Medivh in the dark portal instance or Rhonin/Krasus/Brox and co don't work stop the legion from coming to Azeroth in the first place - history had to go as it did in order for us to win against the Legion. Without the orcs even the night elves would not have been able to do what they needed to defeat Archimonde = legion win. Without Illidan going through all he did, he would not have been able to obtain the keystone, know the legion's weakenss and be able to do what he did and it would have all ended.

Do you think Elune was guiding him all along whether as a restored being of light or a demon it didn't matter to her, he would have fulfilled this purpose, although it may have been much better for him to do so as restored person as he may have been able to get his life back after that, but either way he would have been the key to the Legion's downfall... what do you think?

[Qualia]

Because he sacrificed thousands of other lives for something he wants to do.

Why did the Moonguard have to die by his hands, so he can achieve "his" sacrifice? Why did the Broken of Outland get enslaved, so he can achieve "his" sacrifice? Why did he pump orcs up with fel?

He calls the sacrifice his, but the sacrifice was never his; it was of those around him. He has imperiled and hurt everyone around himself and imposed his own vision on the characters and people around him, often taking their life in the process. He is simply an arrogant character and it is obviously an arrogant character would talk about himself only, ignoring all the damage and suffering he caused.

I don't get how this is selfish. Selfish means doing things for his own gains *only*, and we know now that Illidan, albeit did (or perhaps, still does) have selfish motivation before, was / is trying to protect Azeroth for others as well. At very least, going by the message he left for us, one of those "others" were Tyrande and Illidan didn't expect anything in return for his efforts. Whether it's altruistic is in question, but I wouldn't call it selfish.

To be honest, while it might be double standard to a certain degree, it isn't even hypocrisy either. If we are to call it such, then virtually every general / commanders shall be called selfish. They obviously aren't. Fact is, not every lives are equal. There are soldiers who would never accomplish much by themselves, who need to be told what to do and where to go to be more useful than just a random literal-who around. And then there are people who can plan things out and tell others what directions to go. The first are fodders, while the later are leaders. You can't compare the life of a random Orc with a life of a DH, and the life of a DH with Illidan's. A leader's life is not there to be sacrificed at every single opportunity - without a soldier, the fight will go on. Missing a leader? Much higher chance everything will go wrong fast - the post 7.3 Legion will be an example. You sacrifice it when it'd be crucial for victory, not before that. In that respect, Illidan was more than willing to do so, as seen in "Illidan" where he was plan to lead the DH to Argus and fight KJ, knowing full well that he might die - and he was fine with that as long it'd give others a chance to defeat him and break the Legion's threat. He didn't see what Xe'ra was trying to do as crucial to victory, so he didn't go along with it and sacrifice himself - that's simple.

I'm not saying Illidan is or was a good leader. However, he was still a leader. Asking him "Why did you so willing to sacrifice others for your victory?" is absurd - that's what commanders do. What matters is whether he was mentally willing to sacrifice himself when it's necessary - and he was.

[Beloren]

From Illidan's perspective, yes. There's no altruism in Illidan's nature - everything he does is a product of his self-aggrandizing nature, even if the end product of his pursuits is a net positive such as the protection or preservation of Azeroth.

Wait can that be right when he's only purpose was to destroy the Legion, he said he did everything to save his people and his love, all the sacrifices all the selfish acts were all for that one purpose. Surely it's more a case of " you may enjoy power and aggrandizing, as it's our nature or a part ofi t, but it alone is not sufficient to motivate you to such lengths to do what he ended up doing, it never really is actually.

So he really proved that he was actually all out for this cause even though he was a vain glory-seeking arrogant elf (which face it, is the uglier side of the elves, but totally in character)

[Sparklelord]

I'm still hoping mythic kill is different and that people actually fight to finally contain a weakened Sargeras. This scene in particular looks like Illidan is ready for a fight, arguably just him on guard but if break the cinematic up some, it could make sense, not that blizzard has ever a different cinematic but it would be interesting to see.

What if, the cinematic plays out as it does normally but instead of us leaving with the ship or the ship leaving at all, we're still there with Illidan. There's a small empowered by the pantheon to beat down a weakened Argus followed by another cinematic, of Velen saying his goodbyes and us flying back.

Time will tell I guess, no matter how unlikely lol

[Beloren]

Illidan literally says he has sacrificed everything to save Azeroth. How is that selfish?

Agreed, not only does he say it, we are shown it. We may not like the guy cos of his attitude, but we can't levy selfish at him.

[Sparklelord]

Technically, there should be world left to return to and we should all be stuck in the Seat of the Pantheon for all eternity.

End all things would probably wipe out everything, see my comment above you though

[Beloren]

You chose to ignore the rest of my post?

All he sacrificed was never something of his own; he always sacrificed others, their lives and their lands. What he says in character in the game or elsewhere are just in character traits of an arrogant character.

You say that, but it was a sacrifice to him, because those were his assets and he genuinely seemed to care about them despite using them like that. And no, killing himself without that achieving the victory he desires is not an option. You also see the sacrifice he makes himself - whether its the fel that scars and maims his body and a form that he absolutely detests.. no Illidan does not like demons or demon form, but he will use it if it achieves his goals, no illidan did not like sacrificing the Moonguard either, but he would do it to achieve a more important goal.. his logic is rather some die than all die.

And he goes ahead with becoming a demon even though it may mean losing Tyrande forever.. Tyrande doesn't marry Malfurion in the long years of the vigil, she only finally commits once Illidan goes down the demon path, that's 10,000 years later.

[Magnagarde]

I don't get how this is selfish. Selfish means doing things for his own gains *only*, and we know now that Illidan, albeit did (or perhaps, still does) have selfish motivation before, was / is trying to protect Azeroth for others as well. At very least, going by the message he left for us, one of those "others" were Tyrande and Illidan didn't expect anything in return for his efforts. Whether it's altruistic is in question, but I wouldn't call it selfish.

To be honest, while it does carry double standard, it isn't even hypocrisy either. If we are to call it such, then virtually every general / commanders shall be called selfish. They obviously aren't. Fact is, not every lives are equal. There are soldiers who would never accomplish much by themselves, who need to be told what to do and where to go to be more useful than just a random literal-who around. And then there are people who can plan things out and tell others what directions to go. The first are fodders, while the later are leaders. A leader's life is not there to be sacrificed at every single opportunity - without a soldier, the fight will go on. Missing a leader? Much higher chance everything will go wrong fast - the post 7.3 Legion will be an example. You sacrifice it when it'd be crucial for victory, not before that. In that respect, Illidan was more than willing to do so, as seen in "Illidan" where he was plan to lead the DH to Argus and fight KJ, knowing full well that he might die - and he was fine with that as long it'd give others a chance to defeat him and break the Legion's threat. He didn't see what Xe'ra was trying to do as crucial to victory, so he didn't go along with it and sacrifice himself - that's simple.

I'm not saying Illidan is or was a good leader. However, he was still a leader. Asking him "Why did you so willing to sacrifice others for your victory?" is absurd - that's what commanders do. What matters is whether he was mentally willing to sacrifice himself when it's necessary - and he was.

It is selfish because he has to aknowledge that he forced others to make a sacrifice they weren't ready to make themselves. He sacrificed nothing of his own, but took from others and forced them to sacrifice for his idea.

It isn't what commanders too; commanders do sacrifice others by ordering armies around, but they aknowledge the sacrifice made by those fighting for them, they aknowledge the sacrifice others have made and accentuate it. Illidan on the other hand only talks about himself, his sacrifices and all he gave, while all he achieved are achievements of those around him, paid for with their lives or their own sacrifices.

He literally achieved nothing on his own, through his own capabilities and skills.



Illidan is literally a small-scale Sargeras. Both got their own twisted vision of victory over what they percieve as the ultimate evil and neither stop at anything in order to achieve it - taking their individual capabilities and power level into account, obviously.

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You say that, but it was a sacrifice to him, because those were his assets and he genuinely seemed to care about them despite using them like that. And no, killing himself without that achieving the victory he desires is not an option. You also see the sacrifice he makes himself - whether its the fel that scars and maims his body and a form that he absolutely detests.. no Illidan does not like demons or demon form, but he will use it if it achieves his goals, no illidan did not like sacrificing the Moonguard either, but he would do it to achieve a more important goal.. his logic is rather some die than all die.

And he goes ahead with becoming a demon even though it may mean losing Tyrande forever.. Tyrande doesn't marry Malfurion in the long years of the vigil, she only finally commits once Illidan goes down the demon path, that's 10,000 years later.

If he wants to become a demon in order to fight the Burning Legion, then that is his right. That is his sacrifice.

But to kill others, enslave others and imperil their homelands is not his right and doing all of this without aknowledging their sacrifices is pure arrogance.

Agreed, not only does he say it, we are shown it. We may not like the guy cos of his attitude, but we can't levy selfish at him.

How has he shown it? By sacrificing the lives of other night elves? By sacrificing the Broken of Outland? How can you call it his sacrifice and call his lack of appreaciation for all those he sascrificed not selfish?

The proper way to not be selfish and arrogant would be to aknowledge all the lives he took and pay respect to these people, to aknowledge he did a lot of evil things.