When friends make terrible decisions.

[Celista]

See thread title. What do you do? Do you give them advice or step back and let them fall on their face? What do you do when they don't seem to listen to reason?

I'll just post my own recent experiences here, to get the convo going.

I've been friends for the past several years with a woman who's been living with her partner for the past decade or so (they're 5-8 years older than I am). They are unmarried. Both are creative types. He has a bachelor's degree and takes a bunch of community college courses in theater/writing. She has an MFA and is a working artist, although mostly part-time. She can't hold a job for more than a year before she either quits or self-destructs. He works as a part time tutor. She has ADHD that is mostly untreated and he has bipolar disorder that is serious enough to affect his day to day functioning. Neither of them have engaged in full-time work for several years.

We are close enough friends that I paid for her trip to come to Alaska with me on vacation last summer (I got a deal on everything including airfare so it wasn't that big of a deal to bring her along).

For the past year and a half they have been talking about selling their home, which he bought for around 700k. This is something that my female friend talked her boyfriend into. Her dream is to open an artist community center in Portland, where there is a creative space for artists and equipment to use on hand (think screenprinting equipment, darkroom). So they are planning to sell the home, in order to invest 100% of the money into a business space for their project. Commercial real estate in Portland is well over $700-900k for what they need and they're planning to take out a small mortgage.

The home was an inheritance from his deceased mother; he has no other savings beyond a very small trust fund each month (think $1k a month revenue stream). The market is doing well in Portland and the home is probably worth 900k, but is in need of major repair. If sold at this point it would probably break even with his original purchase price.

Several people have told them what a bad idea this is. They are nice people but their overall work ethic is very poor (the word "lazy" probably applies here). They do not have much of an understanding of business, although to their credit one of them started taking small business classes to learn the basics (I suggested this). There is nothing else for them to fall back on and despite my warnings about putting the need to diversify investments, the risk inherent in this type of investment specifically and the risk inherent in putting 100% of your money into one investment seems to fall on deaf ears. They both seem to understand the need for savings for the first 1-3 years before expecting to generate revenue to keep such a project afloat, but she seems to keep looking at commercial spaces that are far out of their reach (think $1.5 mil range).

To make matters worse, she acts like this is some show of love on his part, because he's selling the house to invest in "her dream". But from my perspective it just seems to me like she's using him for his money.

Their plan is to live out of an RV for a couple of years while they get this venture going. They're not interested in going the nonprofit route for grant funding/tax purposes because they think they will be making $$$ that will keep them afloat.

Right now I'm just taking a step back after very nicely telling them what I think because I don't really think they care what I have to say. Would you do something different?

[Independent voter]

If they were to ask my opinion I'd honestly give it but it sounds like they aren't interested in anyone's opinion, their minds are made up.

[Captain N]

You can tell them what you think about the situation and let them handle it from there. Somethings have a tendency to defy the odds and work out better than they initially would appear to. That being said there's always the chance it goes horribly wrong and they end up worse than they started. Be supportive but don't try to push your agenda into theirs -- that causes bad things to happen.

[Azadina]

You've tried telling them it's not a great plan, and it really doesn't sound like one. If they don't want to take more precautions, then just let them experience the americas renowned social safety net, when the plan crashes down.

[Acidbaron]

I start the conversation with, if you want my opinion on this i'll give it to you but you are not going to like what i have to say. Some tell me to fuck off others listen.

Honestly when it comes to your situation specifically, being nice isn't going to do anyone any favor. I would lay it out bit by bit how bad of an idea this is, how much it will come bite them in the ass and how they simply do not have the stamina to do this, yes literally calling them both lazy to their face. If they are your friends they'll respect you for it, if not you'll have no regrets later in life since you warned them for their disaster.

Be harsh, but be respectful. That will get their attention, since acting nice is something best left for their parents and close relatives.

Want to really derail this plan? The asshole in me would confront whoever can be influenced the most and plant seeds of doubt. So talk to him first, confront them both later. Since honestly even them breaking up you'll be doing them both a favor since how you describe it one of them is going to walk out when it all goes south anyway, what it probably will. But as i said it's an asshole move to do but you are doing it with both of their best interests at heart. So that's what i would do since you are fully convinced, it will all go wrong, so you have to do right by what you believe. Honestly i respect friends personally more that are harsher to me at times, tough love and all.

Or you can embrace that sense of loyalty and join them on their train wreck of a life plan.

[I Push Buttons]

Normally if my friends don't heed my advice I say fuck em and let them carry on with their stupidity... But your friend sounds like a real piece of garbage and is basically trying to steal this guy's inheritance...

If it were me I would try to throw a wrench in there and save this guy from himself (he sounds really stupid and/or gullible). Like I'd make a burner email and contact him accusing the friend of cheating or something, anything to give him pause before he throws his life away for your friend, who seems like a genuine piece of shit.

[Deleted]

Generally speaking, MMO-Champion Off Topic Community are good at giving advices, tell them to come here sometime

[Celista]

If you tell me these people don't have kids and aren't planning to, it'd be the best thing I've heard in months.

They don't have kids. She wants kids, or did at some point (several points). But he uses a condom every time, according to her. Which is good because she has made some comments in the past that would make me suspicious about an "accident" on her part if she ever became pregnant...I don't usually suspect this with my female friends, but this one seems intelligent though to know not to voice things that would backfire on her.

They've been together for a long time, they're nice people who, while I do think she's with him because he has a house/inheritance, seem to actually care about each other. But I hope they don't reproduce either, I became angry with them at some point (we were roommates briefly while I was in graduate school) because they kept forgetting to put out food/water for their dog. Who I would walk.

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You've tried telling them it's not a great plan, and it really doesn't sound like one. If they don't want to take more precautions, then just let them experience the americas renowned social safety net, when the plan crashes down.

I seriously think they're going to break up and one or both of them are going to become homeless/end up living with relatives.

[Amerrol]

She sounds like a real free-loading piece of work. They sound like hippie bums who will fail within the first 6 months of opening up their stupid hippie art house. Not much more you can do to help delusional people. You tried. Do not give them money if they ask.

[Azadina]

I seriously think they're going to break up and one or both of them are going to become homeless/end up living with relatives.

Probably But, I mean, there's not much to be done about it if they don't listen to sound advice, and instead insist on rushing headlong to such risk with no back ups to speak of. It's a disaster already imho.

[Celista]

Normally if my friends don't heed my advice I say fuck em and let them carry on with their stupidity... But your friend sounds like a real piece of garbage and is basically trying to steal this guy's inheritance...

If it were me I would try to throw a wrench in there and save this guy from himself (he sounds really stupid and/or gullible). Like I'd make a burner email and contact him accusing the friend of cheating or something, anything to give him pause before he throws his life away for your friend, who seems like a genuine piece of shit.

I don't really know about any cheating. I doubt it. Although she did tell me about a crush she had on a client who apparently had a crush on her back. I wasn't suspicious at the time, but maybe something happened between the two of them...? Who knows.

I do want to have a side conversation with him but there's no way that will go well.

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She sounds like a real free-loading piece of work. They sound like hippie bums who will fail within the first 6 months of opening up their stupid hippie art house. Not much more you can do to help delusional people. You tried. Do not give them money if they ask.

Yeah I'm not. I don't think their business model will work. There's some merit to the idea of an art space rental +the idea of having basically the equivalent of Kinko's for artists, but the former half of their idea has an extensive amount of market saturation and either way they simply don't have enough capital to pull off what they're doing. Maybe if they tried to pull in other investors, but even then the risk is simply too much given how much of their savings would be at risk if the business took a loss.

[Independent voter]

There are a lot of older cities who are trying to grow an artists community, they give out cheap rents and grants but the downtown neighborhoods are pretty rough. The idea is you start with artists, then come the coffee shops and restaurants and so on.

Detroit is such a place

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/11/tr...lourishes.html

And there are many others.

Too bad they can't take advantage of one of these programs, it would on the city's dime.

[I Push Buttons]

I don't really know about any cheating. I doubt it. Although she did tell me about a crush she had on a client who apparently had a crush on her back. I wasn't suspicious at the time, but maybe something happened between the two of them...? Who knows.

I do want to have a side conversation with him but there's no way that will go well.

No I was saying I would lie to save the guy. If she is actually cheating on him I would definitely tell him, I wouldn't even do it behind her back.

But yeah, I was saying I would make something up on a burner email just to give him doubts about it all and not want to do it.

[Celista]

There are a lot of older cities who are trying to grow an artists community, they give out cheap rents and grants but the downtown neighborhoods are pretty rough. The idea is you start with artists, then come the coffee shops and restaurants and so on.

Detroit is such a place

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/11/tr...lourishes.html

And there are many others.

Too bad they can't take advantage of one of these programs, it would on the city's dime.

Yeah she's aware and I suggested other cities to her, because she could do what she wanted for much less. She's not interested, she says her connections are here and that she knows the Portland market.

She is vastly overestimating that, in my opinion. Her partner has few contacts here. She has some but none of any real significance.

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No I was saying I would lie to save the guy. If she is actually cheating on him I would definitely tell him, I wouldn't even do it behind her back.

But yeah, I was saying I would make something up on a burner email just to give him doubts about it all and not want to do it.

I'd feel wrong about lying, to be honest. As tempting as it may be...he's not an unintelligent man, I feel like he should know how bad this idea is.

[Polyxo]

See thread title. What do you do? Do you give them advice or step back and let them fall on their face? What do you do when they don't seem to listen to reason?

I'll just post my own recent experiences here, to get the convo going.

I've been friends for the past several years with a woman who's been living with her partner for the past decade or so (they're 5-8 years older than I am). They are unmarried. Both are creative types. He has a bachelor's degree and takes a bunch of community college courses in theater/writing. She has an MFA and is a working artist, although mostly part-time. She can't hold a job for more than a year before she either quits or self-destructs. He works as a part time tutor. She has ADHD that is mostly untreated and he has bipolar disorder that is serious enough to affect his day to day functioning. Neither of them have engaged in full-time work for several years.

We are close enough friends that I paid for her trip to come to Alaska with me on vacation last summer (I got a deal on everything including airfare so it wasn't that big of a deal to bring her along).

For the past year and a half they have been talking about selling their home, which he bought for around 700k. This is something that my female friend talked her boyfriend into. Her dream is to open an artist community center in Portland, where there is a creative space for artists and equipment to use on hand (think screenprinting equipment, darkroom). So they are planning to sell the home, in order to invest 100% of the money into a business space for their project. Commercial real estate in Portland is well over $700-900k for what they need and they're planning to take out a small mortgage.

The home was an inheritance from his deceased mother; he has no other savings beyond a very small trust fund each month (think $1k a month revenue stream). The market is doing well in Portland and the home is probably worth 900k, but is in need of major repair. If sold at this point it would probably break even with his original purchase price.

Several people have told them what a bad idea this is. They are nice people but their overall work ethic is very poor (the word "lazy" probably applies here). They do not have much of an understanding of business, although to their credit one of them started taking small business classes to learn the basics (I suggested this). There is nothing else for them to fall back on and despite my warnings about putting the need to diversify investments, the risk inherent in this type of investment specifically and the risk inherent in putting 100% of your money into one investment seems to fall on deaf ears. They both seem to understand the need for savings for the first 1-3 years before expecting to generate revenue to keep such a project afloat, but she seems to keep looking at commercial spaces that are far out of their reach (think $1.5 mil range).

To make matters worse, she acts like this is some show of love on his part, because he's selling the house to invest in "her dream". But from my perspective it just seems to me like she's using him for his money.

Their plan is to live out of an RV for a couple of years while they get this venture going. They're not interested in going the nonprofit route for grant funding/tax purposes because they think they will be making $$$ that will keep them afloat.

Right now I'm just taking a step back after very nicely telling them what I think because I don't really think they care what I have to say. Would you do something different?

I would try to help them, and do the right thing with them. Sometimes you aren't able to help them, but I made the mistake of not trying to push my dad away from bad decisions, and eventually lost my dad because of it.

[I Push Buttons]

I'd feel wrong about lying, to be honest. As tempting as it may be...he's not an unintelligent man, I feel like he should know how bad this idea is.

Personally I'd feel more wrong about letting someone's life be destroyed without trying to stop it.

[Mirishka]

See thread title. What do you do? Do you give them advice or step back and let them fall on their face? What do you do when they don't seem to listen to reason?

I'll just post my own recent experiences here, to get the convo going.

I've been friends for the past several years with a woman who's been living with her partner for the past decade or so (they're 5-8 years older than I am). They are unmarried. Both are creative types. He has a bachelor's degree and takes a bunch of community college courses in theater/writing. She has an MFA and is a working artist, although mostly part-time. She can't hold a job for more than a year before she either quits or self-destructs. He works as a part time tutor. She has ADHD that is mostly untreated and he has bipolar disorder that is serious enough to affect his day to day functioning. Neither of them have engaged in full-time work for several years.

We are close enough friends that I paid for her trip to come to Alaska with me on vacation last summer (I got a deal on everything including airfare so it wasn't that big of a deal to bring her along).

For the past year and a half they have been talking about selling their home, which he bought for around 700k. This is something that my female friend talked her boyfriend into. Her dream is to open an artist community center in Portland, where there is a creative space for artists and equipment to use on hand (think screenprinting equipment, darkroom). So they are planning to sell the home, in order to invest 100% of the money into a business space for their project. Commercial real estate in Portland is well over $700-900k for what they need and they're planning to take out a small mortgage.

The home was an inheritance from his deceased mother; he has no other savings beyond a very small trust fund each month (think $1k a month revenue stream). The market is doing well in Portland and the home is probably worth 900k, but is in need of major repair. If sold at this point it would probably break even with his original purchase price.

Several people have told them what a bad idea this is. They are nice people but their overall work ethic is very poor (the word "lazy" probably applies here). They do not have much of an understanding of business, although to their credit one of them started taking small business classes to learn the basics (I suggested this). There is nothing else for them to fall back on and despite my warnings about putting the need to diversify investments, the risk inherent in this type of investment specifically and the risk inherent in putting 100% of your money into one investment seems to fall on deaf ears. They both seem to understand the need for savings for the first 1-3 years before expecting to generate revenue to keep such a project afloat, but she seems to keep looking at commercial spaces that are far out of their reach (think $1.5 mil range).

To make matters worse, she acts like this is some show of love on his part, because he's selling the house to invest in "her dream". But from my perspective it just seems to me like she's using him for his money.

Their plan is to live out of an RV for a couple of years while they get this venture going. They're not interested in going the nonprofit route for grant funding/tax purposes because they think they will be making $$$ that will keep them afloat.

Right now I'm just taking a step back after very nicely telling them what I think because I don't really think they care what I have to say. Would you do something different?

I find it strange that you're putting their personal business out there like this begin with, to be honest. It really isn't your place. You giving them your feedback, as their friend, is one thing. Bringing hundreds of complete strangers into it is another.

[Celista]

Personally I'd feel more wrong about letting someone's life be destroyed without trying to stop it.

Well I did outline my concerns in a PM and an in-person conversation. I think they missed their best window of opportunity to sell, the real estate market has been cooling in the past year and homes are staying on the market longer.

[Post]

You gotta be honest, firm but fair. Don't be pushy and annoying but make sure he knows your honest opinion and then let him be an adult and make his own decisions.

[Celista]

I find it strange that you're putting their personal business out there like this begin with, to be honest. It really isn't your place. You giving them your feedback, as their friend, is one thing. Bringing hundreds of complete strangers into it is another.

Don't we all talk about our personal business on the internet all of the time....it would affect me for sure, she considers me family and I do too (there are several reasons for this), if something happened to her she would probably turn to me first. Her mom is in hospice and her siblings live out of country/state.

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Also the thread was supposed to be an "in general" thread but I guess the convo ended up being focused on my original post.