How would you rate Legions raids?

[Argorwal]

No. This does not make the mechanic difficult. The mechanic is trivial, but any failure, for instance seeing an animation that is similar to the one that indicates you've finished the mechanic but mistakenly leaving early because you're so uninterested in the trivial mechanic you're doing for the 500th time, thus causing an instant wipe is not "difficulty."

We have highways, people drive down highways every day. Accidents are fairly rare. In the event that the accident is caused by human error and not a mechanical failure, driving without error is fairly easy. People from 15 years old to 80 years old do it every day, people drive for 50+ years without making any serious errors. Now imagine a world where when one person gets into an accident by making an error, even if they just run themselves off the road, every car on the road was crushed, killing everyone inside.

Is driving suddenly more difficult?

No single mechanic ever implemented is "hard" on its own. It's the combination of many happening at once and also requiring high throughput.

The topic of course is the degree of punishment for failure, and indeed having mistakes be punished with wipes makes clearing an encounter much more difficult than just it killing 1 person. It's pretty much one of the only ways Blizzard has been able to challenge the very top end guilds because their skill level is so high.

Your car anology is stupid when compared to a video game where you are intended to fail many times before achieving success.

[callipygoustp]

I haven't played any of Legion but I have watched various videos/streams, read guides and break down of mechanics, and chatted with the few friends I have that are still raiding. Across the board, with the exception of poor tuning on a few fights, the raids looked pretty great. Couple times I had been tempted to come back just for the raiding. Without having played, I give them an 8/10.

[BiggestNoob]

No single mechanic ever implemented is "hard" on its own. It's the combination of many happening at once and also requiring high throughput.

This is false. There are plenty of mechanics that can be implemented that are difficult. The problem is there are virtually none of these present in ToS, it's just a bunch of trivial things where any error instantly wipes your raid.

A great mechanic that's challenging to deal with well was the stacking DoT on Il'gynoth during progression, if you weren't cheesing the fight like some early kills. It's a group effort (didn't require the whole raid, sadly) where the health of multiple mobs has to be managed such that you're killing adds that chase people in groups quickly and in a specific position while dealing with other shit in a fairly large room. Being too slow meant you would get more tentacle spawns when you should've entered the room, which you could deal with but not easily, or you killed them too quickly and huge raid damage happened, which to a certain point was something you could also deal with with some difficulty.

The topic of course is the degree of punishment for failure, and indeed having mistakes be punished with wipes makes clearing an encounter much more difficult than just it killing 1 person.

This is false.

It's pretty much one of the only ways Blizzard has been able to challenge the very top end guilds because their skill level is so high.

And yet it hasn't challenged them, because they're exceptionally good at doing trivial things. Why do you think those guilds called out this design in ToS as just wasting time? Both of them were quite capable of killing Avatar without the 5% nerf. Both of them downed KJ in a pre-nerfed state that most guilds couldn't deal with, once things that were actually overtuned were nerfed, like the last phase raid damage. Even after substantial nerfs, most guilds still went through a wall of wipes to repeated minor failures on these bosses, but never had issues with "healing this is hard" or "this DPS check is really hard" or "this mechanic is difficult to deal with." One of the few was dealing with darkness + orbs on KJ, and that was nerfed, because Method dealt with it cleverly and people were using movement abilities and switching races to deal with it, even though you could just assign people to watch the corners. The rest of the bosses were utterly trivial to them, especially things like maiden, even though Method was asked by Blizzard not to solo soak and so did it the hard way. That fight is the epitome of an undertuned easy fight with trivial mechanics where a minor mistake wipes you. Nobody calls that a hard fight.

Your car anology is stupid when compared to a video game where you are intended to fail many times before achieving success.

No, it's not stupid. You don't understand it because you don't understand probability and difficulty.

Go back and read my updated post, I actually did some of the math for you. This is also why 10 man heroic/normal is much easier than 30, and why 40 man raids had to be fairly lenient.

[Pandragon]

For the most part I enjoyed it. The "Of" raids were kind of annoying to do.

[Sithalos]

I would say an 8, if ToS wasn't a thing. ToS drags it down to a 6 for me. That raid was god awful on mythic.

[Scyth]

I've pretty much enjoyed all of them except for ToS, cannot stand that place.

[Rogalicus]

Didn't you brag somewhere about how you've been unsubbed since early HFC?

My guild quit raiding HFC when we were 9/13M, so no, you're clearly mixing me up with someone else.

Antorus is a very good raid, but the mythic tuning has let it down for sure. If it wasn't for the tuning, i'd say only slightly worse than throne of thunder (which is a 10/10) so probably a 9/10, but the tuning puts it at about a 7/10

Good to hear, but as I've said earlier, I've rated all the raids before Antorus, because I'm no longer playing.

[Deleted]

Pretty decent, but Mythic isn't really unique enough - too many fights in Legion boil down to "Do the heroic strategy, but right" since making a mistake kills a player or wipes the raid.

Feels like there USED to be new or big mechanical changes going from the easier to the hardest mode, feels like they've been lazy in designing a lot of the mythic changes this expansion compared to MOP / Cata.

[Deleted]

EN - it's only fitting if the axed xpac is at least crowned with a raid; wonderful visually and often mechanically, but seriously undertuned. Xavius sort of spoils the experience.
ToV - because one TotC was clearly not enough. Oh well.
NH - missed it completely, looks like I missed a lot.
ToS - my guild never got past Maiden HC. The raid was so meh I didn't even feel tempted to pug further, although I did it regularly since MoP whenever my guild stopped somewhere I didn't feel like stopping at.
Antorus - only did NM so far, so I can only talk about flavour etc. High Commmand, Tower of the Ancients, Shivarra and Argus are quite good. The rest is just yet another fel citadel. GW is a retarded child of Kologarn and Iron Reaver who looked too long at KJ, doggies allow too much LFR trolling and the fact you can tank the fire doggie with no healer is somewhat hubris-inducing, Varimathras seems all about speed of reaction, Shivarra are just too long. Nice touch on Aggramar with the tank dance though.

Overall, 5-6/10. It's not like Team B can really get in WotLK raids league.

[Deleted]

4/10

ToS was the worst raid tier since ToC. So bad, rushed and uninspired
ToV was great. EN was just boring, but still okayish I guess.
Antorus underperformed.

NH was quite fun.

[Micronetic]

I don't like Legion in general, raids are poor, everything is rather crap, I even played WoD more in a week than Legion in 1 month. Hope this will end soon and the next espansion will be better, if not, subscription will stay cancelled :-(

[Aestereal]

I've only done Heroic, and I'm currently 8/11H with experience on Coven and Argus. AotC on everything else, though.
EN: 5/10: It's an intro raid, and given that, it had enough variety of fights that it was okay. Liked Il'gynoth and Cenarius, didn't like Ursoc and Elereth.
ToV: 7/10: Odyn and Helya were really cool fights, lots going on and a significant jump up from EN. I liked the flavor in it as well, and it was nice to not see any fel influence.
NH: 9/10: Good variety in fights, some cool lore, and Gul'dan felt so good to kill on Heroic. Plus, Trilliax continued XT Deconstructor's legacy of insane robots.
ToS: 6/10: The number of "one person goofs, wipe" mechanics made the burnout feel hard in here, and a lot of the characters didn't feel important. I liked KJ, Sisters, and Maiden, but thought Mistress was rough with a small group and Harjatan was super-boring.
ABT: 8/10: Definitely better than ToS, but undertuned. Plus, Varimathras was too cool of a character in WoW's lore to die as easily as he does. Coven feels like a great fight (several 20%ish wipes on Heroic), and it's been a blast to raid lead the thing so far.

[Saverem]

I enjoyed it. I think raiding is very subject to not only the raiding content but the guild/people you raid with. I remember having a bad time raiding in WoD because of my old guild which had a lot of assholes causing drama and it broke up like 2 times before I finally gave up and stopped raiding.

Been in a cool guild in Legion, so the raiding experience as a whole has been elevated. Even on shitty bosses, it's fun being able to goof around and make jokes and such with your raid mates.


In terms of actual raid though. I'd say ABT is indeed the best of the expansion.

I'd go: ABT > NH > ToV > ToS > EN

[Deleted]

I'd give all the raids combined a solid 6 or 7 at most.
In my opinion the most fun raids were ABT > ToV > NH > EN > ToS, tho i'm kinda burnt out currently on the whole "fell" theme but i guess that's only fair for the theme of the expansion, green just isn't my cup of tea when it comes to colors.

High hopes for the new expansion, hopefully the raids will have more variation and more innovative boss fights and mechanics.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Nighthold was the best so far, with memorable fights, dazzling art, and great lore tie ins.
Bits that stood out for me were:

• Insane fun of cheesing Skorpyron
  (ok he's a 1st boss not meant to be over complicated)
• Interesting attempt at incorporating time magic with Chromatic Anomaly
  (regardless of how hard/easy he was, it was interesting attempt at achieving this effect)
• Voice acting for Trilliax! Instant classic, will be remembered fondly for years.
• Laughing at guild mates who fall off bridge on Krosus
  (and trying to bait guild mates off bridge on Krosus )
• Visual effects on Star Augur
• Another take on time magic with Elisande
• Epic final showdown with Gul'dan (most charismatic villain of the expansion)

Emerald Nightmare was spooky fun for an opener. Yeah it may have been undertuned, but we still had some fun nights in there. Ursoc was crazy in-your-face tank challenge until someone made the weak aura that trivialized it. Elethre had lots of running around to coordinate, dodging webs and flying with feathers...

Trials of Valor was ok for what it was, but felt like a filler.

Tomb of Sargeras was kind of a pain. Mistress was probably my favorite fight, because fast paced and crazy. Desolate Host was interesting concept, but deserved it's own model instead of re-skinned Marrowgar. Overall, though, as others have pointed out, it was too many one-shot mechanics.

Withholding judgment on Antorus.

Overall I rated Legion raids a 7/10.

[Hebed118]

Overall about a 7/10. Antorus really helped what would have otherwise been 5/10.