Mythic 10 Man Raid - Do You Miss Them?

[MisterBigglez]

While I do miss 10 man raiding for the smaller teams, the only time I really wanted it back was during WoD when guilds were falling apart and recruitment was dead due to noone wanting to play WoD. With Legion, there are more people playing and more guilds active doing mythic so finding a guild with the right amount of players is more common.

[Bullettime]

No, go away.

The 10-25 divide almost destroyed the raiding community.

And the shift back to a fixed 20 ultimately killed mythic raiding entirely on the majority of servers.

Mythic 20 has made the raid community extremely healthy overall, it's just unfortunate Blizzard hasn't done more for lower population servers as now you basically have to transfer to raid. You have like 10 servers now with really healthy raid communities but it's practically dead everywhere else.

[Chanja]

but on 10man no-one is bad no-one has real life issues, no-one will leave the guild everyone is perfect, i keep hearing this story and it's just adorable just as cute when the room on 10man and 25man is the same size but 25 ppl have to spread out and 10 it's a complete non mechanic.

And yet it is alot easier to maintain a 10man group than it is to maintain 20man.
Just saying "no your argument is not valid because I say so" doesn't make it unvalid, sorry.
I was playing through Legion on a very low pop server and we struggled to achieve 20man for mythic raiding so people left and transfered over to other servers where they were able to just hop into a stable mythic raid team.
We wouldn't have had that problem if there was 10man raiding because in order to get 10 ppl you only have to fill like 4 to 6 spots with "new" friends instead of 14 to 16.

[Bullettime]

And yet it is alot easier to maintain a 10man group than it is to maintain 20man.
Just saying "no your argument is not valid because I say so" doesn't make it unvalid, sorry.
I was playing through Legion on a very low pop server and we struggled to achieve 20man for mythic raiding so people left and transfered over to other servers where they were able to just hop into a stable mythic raid team.
We wouldn't have that problem if there was 10man raiding because in order to get 10 ppl you only have to fill like 4 to 6 spots with "new" friends instead of 14 to 16.

Pretty much. The raid community itself is stronger and banded together in the face of the change.

It's just unfortunate that Blizzard sacrificed low-med pop servers to do that.

[Socialhealer]

And yet it is alot easier to maintain a 10man group than it is to maintain 20man.
Just saying "no your argument is not valid because I say so" doesn't make it unvalid, sorry.
I was playing through Legion on a very low pop server and we struggled to achieve 20man for mythic raiding so people left and transfered over to other servers where they were able to just hop into a stable mythic raid team.
We wouldn't have that problem if there was 10man raiding because in order to get 10 ppl you only have to fill like 4 to 6 spots with "new" friends instead of 14 to 16.

where did i say your argument is invalid?

i just find all the 10man stories of a perfect world of no-one is bad, no-one misses a raid, no-one gets carried, no-one is late, no-one leaves, no-one has real life issues.

it's all a dreamy perfect world of happy raiding, which is bullshit lol.

[Deleted]

No

I shouldn't even got created in first place... 10-30 for flex is good, fixed 20 for hardest diff is good

[Spryte]

Yup
/10chars

[Ellerain]

but on 10man no-one is bad no-one has real life issues, no-one will leave the guild everyone is perfect, i keep hearing this story and it's just adorable just as cute when the room on 10man and 25man is the same size but 25 ppl have to spread out and 10 it's a complete non mechanic.

Just as cute when on 25man you can have a dps do a side job (kite something, go kill an engineer, w/e) and only lose like 6% of the total raid dps when on 10 man you have to consider making a healer do it so because losing 20% will cost you an enrage.
And to answer your first quip, no, 10 man is not always perfect -- but on average people will quit less, adapt more and bad people just don't make the roster.

[xcitng]

Considering mythic 10 never existed, no.

This.

I much prefer 20 man & 10 man heroic is still there for people who want it.

[melzas]

Only liked it when my computer couldn't handle big raids. Now that I can run whatever I want in WoW, I prefer bigger sizes as they simply feel more epic (20-25 are both great).

[Socialhealer]

Just as cute when on 25man you can have a dps do a side job (kite something, go kill an engineer, w/e) and only lose like 6% of the total raid dps when on 10 man you have to consider making a healer do it so because losing 20% will cost you an enrage.
And to answer your first quip, no, 10 man is not always perfect -- but on average people will quit less, adapt more and bad people just don't make the roster.

for that average you need to multiply every quit/bad players by 2.5 of course because you're dealing with more players in 25, then i think you'll find it happens just as much in both raid sizes per player.

for example take 4 25man guilds and 10 10man guilds, think you'll find they average out around the same, but we can't so it's just pure speculation on your side.

edit also 25man only loses 6% but 10man would lose 20%? you realise 10man raid were really undertuned on bosses health and overall much less raid dps was required? 10man heroic animus zerg was a thing, on 25man it was mathematically impossible in current gear 25man raiders were required to pull like 80% more dps than 10man and no amount of raid buffs was literally doubling your dps.

[Ellerain]

where did i say your argument is invalid?

i just find all the 10man stories of a perfect world of no-one is bad, no-one misses a raid, no-one gets carried, no-one is late, no-one leaves, no-one has real life issues.

it's all a dreamy perfect world of happy raiding, which is bullshit lol.

"no-one is bad" / "no-one gets carried"
20% of bad is less tolerable than 7% of bad. 1 battle rez is less forgiving than 3. 25 man could carry 1-2 bad dpsers easily. 10 man is very noticeably struggling with one, so they get replaced after the first couple bosses. It's just a matter of encounter margins.

(The negative: you cannot recruit a pair of players who only play together if one of them is 110% good player but the other one is 50% bad player. The 25 man accomodate that shit all the time [the proverbial "GM's girlfriend"])


"no-one is late"/ "no-one has real life issues"
It is possible to dynamically adjust 10 man. We had 3 members on shift jobs and had to switch raid times week-to-week accomodating their non-fixed schedules. This task is multiplicatively harder the more people you get. So it is not that people dont have issues, it is just possible to be flexible about these issues. Also since 10men tend to become close friend groups quickly, people feel more responsibility to not be late/schedule around raiding time.

(The negative: people don't want to pug and play with strangers. You have to cancel some raids you would be able to otherwise pug because of that.)


"no-one leaves"
Yes, burnout rates are lower when you are raiding with a group of close friends AND since the number of people is also lower, the average raid attrition per month = (burnout rate*number of people) is significantly lower. Does it happen? yes. Is it a far less impact on leadership than in 25 man? Absolutely. This means that leadership has less overhead = less leadership burnout as well, less stress and this all compounds quickly.

(The negative: you basically don't have 'bench' and 'reserve' since they arent getting into the main roster ever)

- - - Updated - - -

you realise 10man raid were really undertuned on bosses health and overall much less raid dps was required? 10man heroic animus zerg was a thing, on 25man it was mathematically impossible in current gear 25man raiders were required to pull like 80% more dps than 10man and no amount of raid buffs was literally doubling your dps.

Just because one (very mechanically special) boss was tuned this way does not mean that every boss was tuned this way. Enrage checks on 10man were just as a real headache as on 25.

[Deleted]

How can I miss something that never existed ?

[Kazuchika]

Oh cool this thread again. It's surely been at least 3 days since we last had one.

[ONCHEhap]

I liked how it made the 10 players very close,and felt like your own elite team of the best

I think I'd like having static raid sizes for each raid,kinda like BC

Have a 10 man raid,a 20 man raid,and maybe even a 40 man(or maybe not),all within the same tier

That way you have your 10 man team,and you could come together and work together with another 10 man team for the 20 man raid of the tier



But that'd be a nightmare from an organisation standpoint lol

[Styx]

to be honest, i think the flex system is the best thing that have happen to raiding overall

if we are only talking mythic (hardest) raiding, then i'm quite content with 20-man

[Dangg]

Limiting highest tier raiding to 10man would force mechanics to be simpler than current. Instead of 3 soaks that need several people in it, would need to be probably 1. Ect. Just throwing an example. The mechanics that require team work would suddenly be force to be simpler for the reason that there are not enough people to cause variation.

Both 20 and 10 man could not exist at same time. They cannot be balanced to be equal difficulty.
Who would bother 20man when you can 10man?

20man is already a compromise. There can only be one size highest tier content. It is the only way stuff can be "balanced" to have same difficulty for everyone.

So no... 10man was and would be a terrible idea.

Tune 10 mans way harder number wise and make 20 man drop twice the loot per person and I bet 10 man will still have a larger audience.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It allowed for more guilds to push into mythic which I cannot say is really a bad thing. I never understood why people in this game insist on being special snowflakes and only them and there buddies should see content. Oh well.. explains why raiding is back burner-ed and M+ is being front and centered. It is only going to get that way more and more because just about everyone can get involved. As soon as they jumped mythic up to 20 only they pretty much made it a special snowflake club (one that I am apart of btw). That pretty much its importance is going to be diminished and its sad. I love raiding. But to many haters in its community have turned it into toxic poison for a lot of people.