After Dominating 3 Straight Expansions, is Method the best raiding guild in history?

[jackofwind]

You can't compare esports (although WoW raiding is hardly an esport) to sports.

RL games rarely change, rules and what one needs to do are the same for decades or in some cases hundreds of years, whereas in case of WoW mechanical difficulty of raids raised quite dramatically over the last decade.

As blues recently stated:

Professional raiding as well as raid design have evolved a ton since those days, they are hardly comparable at this point imo.

Or have PTR research, or datamining, or have multiple characters for any scenario of mechanical differences. The list goes on. Higher end raiders while a very fraction of a percent are far more skilled in how they approach fights than they were during Vanilla and even Burning Crusade encounters.

If you dropped a fight like Argus during something like Vanilla with no previous history of encounters or the tools that higher end raiders have now, I think you'd see him live for quite a long time.

WF raiders now and then (Vanilla, TBCish) are basically playing two different games.

Modern NHL players are also playing a completely different game rules-wise, which I mentioned in my post - you can absolutely compare the two. The NHL revisits the official rules every year and they change slightly every couple of years, with bigger changes happening every 5 years or so.

Just one example in a myriad of them to make the point - back in the day hockey goalies weren't allowed to go knee-down on the ice surface. Look at modern goaltenders and consider how dramatically that rule has changed the game. That's not even getting into team composition and salary cap rules, which in the modern iteration of the sport have ensured that wealthy teams can't simply buy out all the best players like they used to be able to.

Which brings us back to my point - the game has changed a lot, and often the most dramatic dynasties were made back in the day when rules allowed for them. Modern teams/players are much better but can't make the same kind of dynasty.

[zoenova]

You care this much about people with no lives lol

[Otimus]

Is there even more than a couple of dozen or so groups doing current mythic content with the intent on finishing it? I'm not being rhetorical. I'm actually asking because it doesn't seem so, and I don't actually know.

(Personally, I've never been all too interested in the "competition" of world first raiding stuff, it's always seemed to me that most of that is held back by logistics more than anything. (Like pretty much all aspects of WoW PVE), only with a much larger tilt toward the amount of skill needed after said logistics. But that's just from an outsider-looking-in perspective. I don't actually know. If I'm really honest, the only PVE style records that interest me are usually speedruns of mechanically difficult single player games, rather than something that's mostly logistically and coordinationally difficult. Like someone doing a full run of Ninja Gaiden Black without getting hit or something. Now that's impressive. Or for a WoW example, when someone is soloing something they really shouldn't be able to.)

[TOM_RUS]

Paragon was better, but Blizzard killed raiding for them and many other players.

[Lucetia]

To be frank, these people play their classes and vs the environment on a totally different level.

So yeah, I'd say it's impressive to both have the dedication AND the skill. Some people can have 800+ kills of a boss and still hit a roadblock. Latest case in point: Mythic Gorefiend.

How is it impressive to have dedication and skill like that? I mean again some will play for way more hours in a day/week than one probably should. They also always have the highest end gear (usually due to multiruns). There are a lot of factors involved which goes back to my original point.

Unless your implying that's it's impressive that they do it quicker than another person? Which you could come up with many examples over.

[RoKPaNda]

Modern WoW matters little considering the biggest names in WoW quit long ago.

Classic WoW means little because the raids had simpler/fewer mechanics. It's not like comparing the greatest in sports in two different type periods, the entire game changed dramatically since Kungen's prime, and his role is now the easiest of the three. In his time he was remarkable, and now he'd be pretty average.

But to stick with the sports analogy, your example is pretty bad. It's like saying modern boxing doesn't matter because Tyson/Roy Jones Jr/Ali retired.

[Craaazyyy]

no..

while its impressive what they've been doing i feel like the overall competition has been significantly reduced during the time of their reign.. alot of players quit.. whole guilds quit altogether

[Craaazyyy]

Classic WoW means little because the raids had simpler/fewer mechanics. It's not like comparing the greatest in sports in two different type periods, the entire game changed dramatically since Kungen's prime, and his role is now the easiest of the three. In his time he was remarkable, and now he'd be pretty average.

But to stick with the sports analogy, your example is pretty bad. It's like saying modern boxing doesn't matter because Tyson/Roy Jones Jr/Ali retired.

thing is if some things became way less popular than they used to be it diminishes the achievements related to these things.. wow is way less popular than it used to be, competition isnt as good as it used to be..

im sorry but they had to compete with guilds that used to be top15-20 max back in the days.. aka Blood Legion in MoP, Exorsus in MoP and Legion etc. alot of players/guilds quit since cata

[Billy Idol]

Nihilum/Ensidia/Paragon impressive guilds.

[Volardelis]

They have done what no other guild has, including Paragon Ensidia, Nihilum, etc. Which is continue to be world first for 3 straight expansions.

Their body of work:

Mists of Pandaria

World 1st Will of the Emperor
World 1st Sha of Fear
World 1st Lei Shen
World 1st Garrosh
World 2nd Empress Shekzeer

Warlords of Draenor

World 1st Blackhand
World 1st Archimonde
World 2nd Imperator Margok

Legion

World 1st Helya
World 1st Kil'jaeden
World 1st Argus
World 2nd Xavius
World 3rd Gul'dan

Thoughts?

Highmaul is weird as Paragon killed Butcher last (thus getting 7/7 world first) while Method killed Butcher before hand.

The race is to clear all of mythic, and with highmaul, 3 bosses were completely optional. While Mar'gok is "last boss", you can do Tectus, Butcher and the fungal guy afterwards. Unlike the other raids on that list where you have to defeat all the other bosses to get to the last boss. (excluding the skip bosses quests clearly)

[Craaazyyy]

I would put Paragon as the 2nd best ever. Method beat Paragon in both BRF and HFC, when Paragon retained a lot of its old members (considering they got world first Imperator, they were very hardcore and impressive).

alot of members? Paragon had 24 ppl on their roster in WoD.. compared to ~40 in wrath/cata.. only ppl that remained on their roster since wrath/cata were Devai, Fragi, Seita, Iiris, Ilonie, Jhazrun, Lappe, Smirk and Verdisha

[Suggs]

Paragon was better, but Blizzard killed raiding for them and many other players.

And whos fault is that?
A shit ton of guilds are still here raiding even through the changes blizzard made including method.

Adapt and overcome.
This was paragons downfall, they didnt adapt, they threw the towel in and continued to blame others ie blizzard.
Method lost many of its core players, they adapted and did something about it and now look at them.
just my 2 cents.

[Jtbrig7390]

Not hard to be the best when you are the only one in the race.

Method only had one other guild that could beat them.

[Asuhariet]

And whos fault is that?
A shit ton of guilds are still here raiding even through the changes blizzard made including method.

Adapt and overcome.
This was paragons downfall, they didnt adapt, they threw the towel in and continued to blame others ie blizzard.
Method lost many of its core players, they adapted and did something about it and now look at them.
just my 2 cents.

Paragon was also Finnish speaking I believe, while Method is English speaking. There's a lot more English speaking players than Finnish speaking.

[Craaazyyy]

And whos fault is that?
A shit ton of guilds are still here raiding even through the changes blizzard made including method.

Adapt and overcome.
This was paragons downfall, they didnt adapt, they threw the towel in and continued to blame others ie blizzard.
Method lost many of its core players, they adapted and did something about it and now look at them.
just my 2 cents.

its not that they didnt adapt, they just quit altogether.. most of their players dont play the game at all anymore..

alot of them didnt even want to adapt.. didnt want to play, hell when you had a roster of 40 ppl and then ~30 of them quit i still am impressed that they were able to compete with Method in WoD

[RoKPaNda]

thing is if some things became way less popular than they used to be it diminishes the achievements related to these things.. wow is way less popular than it used to be, competition isnt as good as it used to be..

im sorry but they had to compete with guilds that used to be top15-20 max back in the days.. aka Blood Legion in MoP, Exorsus in MoP and Legion etc. alot of players/guilds quit since cata

Not really, guilds disbanded yes but the current guilds are made up primarily of those same players from those same guilds back then. The very top is verrrrrrry stable in terms of player retention even if guilds themselves disband and shuffle around a bit.

[Craaazyyy]

Not really, guilds disbanded yes but the current guilds are made up primarily of those same players from those same guilds back then. The very top is verrrrrrry stable in terms of player retention even if guilds themselves disband and shuffle around a bit.

no they are not.. majority of top players quit the game(majority of players in general quit the game lol).. hell even alot of old method players quit.. i think Method now have 3 players that are playing in Method since Wrath. I think out of 20 raiders they usually have like 15 of them playing with them since WoD.. and only like 5 of them were actually raiding in top guilds back in the days.. Method merged with Envy and then merged with Rapid Eye Movement but majority of the players they've merged with quit too

for example i think only a couple of players from Paragon are still raiding in top20 guilds..

i doubt that alot(if any) of ppl from FTH or Ensidia are still raiding

[Flazian]

Yes. /10chars

[Deleted]

It would certainly seem so.

Not hard to be the best when you are the only one in the race.

Method only had one other guild that could beat them.

So what you are saying is:
"It's not hard to be the best if you are one of the top 2"?

[Shiny212]

You can easily find out what he's done to deserve the "hatred" (that's generous) he receives.

Quote:

He's the WoW equivalent to an old quarterback setting a school record in the 60's returning every 5 years to his school in order to ride his accomplishments from then, shit all over the current players, have a team of better players carry him to a victory in a current game and proclaim how he's still "the best ever!" despite many having outperformed him in the time that passed between his glory days and the present.

Cant really outperform his accomplishment of leading a guild to perpetual success, miles ahead of anyone else on the planet, for years.

And the athlete comparison is so silly, this game isn't an e-sport. Its skill ceiling isn't anywhere near one, certainly not freaking PvE. People who play this game alot are so amazing at deluding themselves into thinking "what they do" requires so much skill, it doesn't. Kungen, or any other fucking player with alot of time on their hands can be in a "top guild" skillwise, it's not a matter of freaking skill, it never ever was.