So Horde lost Turalyon just because Alleria's possessed by the Void?

[Ielenia]

It's not saying the whole alliance is evil...

The thing is... when you're the one in charge, and no one is shown opposing you at all for the duration of their appointment and other faction entities are also held in your sway. It's not one guy.

At least in the case of Garrosh, other minded parties and organizations rose up and removed him. This did not happen to Garithos from within his forces. His group was wiped out externally by the Scourge. No apparent dissent in the ranks. No "um... why are we holding the prince exactly (this guy seems fishy and I don't mean the prisoners)". For the blood elves it was a full and utter break down of what the alliance was supposed to be. Granted yes, there was still Stormwind and Ironforge and the other nations.... on the other end of the continent a world away, but they weren't there and, afaik there was never any acknowledgment made know about the events concerning any of this further.

Honestly, Blood elves should just avoid Dalaran cause they never get a good deal there.

And the best thing about this... Garithos is completely irrelevant. Alleria left Azeroth before Garithos was a thing. She went through the Dark Portal I think in WC2, so Alleria never saw what the guy did. All she knew was a fairer Alliance.

Not to mention the Alliance of today is not the same Alliance of before.

[Squiggit]

It sounds like it's completely unintentional on their part but OP does actually hit on a good point.

You can come up with good overarching lore reason for most of the factions falling the way they do in BfA and you can create satisfying quests and storylines to show them being introduced to your faction.

The trouble is how do you make it satisfying for the other faction? A Horde player spends hours running around Argus at Alleria and Turalyon's side, helping them push back the legion and slay demons and helping the former control her void powers. How do you in a satisfactory way tell them that now that's all worthless and you're mortal enemies?

Likewise for the Alliance players. How do you convincingly tell an alliance player that after being personally responsible for uniting the Highmountain tribes, saving the lives of its leadership, defeating its enemies and becoming BFFs with Mayla that now her people are going to be gunning for you in the upcoming war?

Yeah, sure, quest storytelling and overarching lore have always been separate to one degree or another, but regardless Blizzard still decided to make Legion storytelling very personal and their "screw it" approach to reconciling overarching lore choices with their own story direction is pretty lame.

[Thage]

I can't help but see this as a troll parody mocking the alliance players who are still salty over Thalyssra.

Same. In both cases the writing was on the wall if you paid any attention to the characters' motivations and the chatter events surrounding them.

[Minikin]

Actually whatever this thread is you and quite a lot of the people on this board actually don't even know the most basic lore and argue nonsense and that's why this thread was created.

As a matter of actual facts that are not at all in dispute, Thalyssra never had anything to do with inviting the Legion into Suramar and rebelled as soon as she caught wind that Elisande was planning such. And not only that but actually the only reason we were even able to stop the Legion's plans with the Nightwell and Illidan is *because she started the Dusk Lily Rebellion and sent a message to the outside world that was picked up in Dalaran*. Maybe try actually reading quest text? Also if you're too lazy to look at all those quests now now, there's a comic (in fact a whole series of pre-Legion online only comics that are 100% cannon) that shows the story of Thalyssra and the Nightborne leading up to just before Legion, maybe try reading it?

It makes nothing but sense that Thalyssra is going Horde and that's not a matter of opinion, sure Blizzard pushed for a story where sides had to be taken so the story is a bit abrupt, but anyone that played Horde and Alliance side in the Suramar questline in Legion knows that if sides were to be taken after that, they would go Horde. it's all very very obvious.

But getting back on topic as a matter of fact considering that 3/3 of the Sons of Lothar who are not Turalyon or Alleria are 100% for sure in-game either Neutral or for sure 100% Neutral now in the actual game and will be staying neutral in the game we actually play that we are talking about here and are actually in the lore *get this* NEUTRAL it doesn't make a lot of sense that Turalyon and Alleria without much of any story introduction or anything are suddenly not.

Also seeing as how Lordaeran and Quel'Thalas (the actual Kingdoms that Turalyon and Alleria hail from) are no longer Alliance territory but mainly have the same people living(more or less) in them it actually does not make a lot of sense that Alleria is suddenly capable of straight up outward violence against her own people and Turalyon the same.

I expect about as much from someone who would actually defend Tyrande as if she's not a complete shit character. I mean what the fuck is that accent that no other Night Elf has at all, really?

Nevermind the fact that they fought the Burning Legion for thousands of years and should be completely over pointless trivial wars.

you know this is pretty interesting how you not only agreed with me in a thread before (disagreement is fine too, i dont mind that) but the most stand out part was, that you worded a civil and decent dialogue rather than throwing insults around. though i hope this is just a one off and perhaps you have dealt with other horrible responses thus your response to me or anyone else is similarly cutting.

I will continue the discussion, hopefully you return to a decent argument too, and we can talk on this rather than you just outright insulting me.

going back on topic. i do know the lore, and honestly its pretty linear and much of what people argue on these forums is infact a matter of opinion or what people THINK that the character is going through. Also before I go any further ill just say right off the bat that I really dont care if she goes horde or w.e. Personally though they should have stayed neutral, and the alliance shouldnt get void elves. To me Thalysra and Turalyon are not at all comparable that is my biggest point. I mentioned the other thread because i know what is going on in there. People get carried away and make claims because they just want their faction to win, without realizing that their bias not only dissolves their argument but also reduces their merit.

I never said Thalysra brough the legion in. she was part of the problem. To Tyrande, Malfurion and other nightelves (who were largely responsible for imprisoning Illidan Stormrage and also the eventual leaving of Dath'Remar which lead to the founding of Quel'thalas) they see the highborne and any arcane usage as evil. Because to them it is a simple cut and dry method. highborne were power hungry nazis that sold their race to the demons for more power. Highborne used arcane thus arcane is evi. Not saying I agree with that 1+1=2 logic but I am saying thats how they see it. NOW, mind you. no where in the chronicles or the books has this vision been clearly put into words, just their actions can be very closely inferred to point that way.

Turalyon, was one of the first students of Faol, along with Uther, Gavinrad, Tirion and Saidan. He was second in command to the supreme commander of the alliance armies. The man practically loved Lothar, and when blackhand bashed lothar's skull in, turalyon took his sword and beat him down with the power of the light. He then lead a further expedition to Draenor to end the invasion once and for all. I dont need to go into detail, you already know what happens.

Tyrande doesnt trust Thalysra. Because Thalysra might have created all sorts of rebellion when GULDAN came knocking. But no where does it actively say how she acted when Azshara was trying to bring Sargeras in. The highborne did nothing while their people were killed or enslaved around them. They caused it. Thalysra was alive during that time, so was Ellisande. In the end it was Illidan, Malfurion, Tyrande, Ravencrest and multiple others who saved the world. Now after 10 thousand years she realized her error and once exiled sought aid. Normally this kind of person would not be helped. Look at Thalysras estate, its not like she was living in squalor. For nearly 10 millenia this woman was living in a top of the line malibu home. The night elves remember, and I am sure the quel and sindorei do too, but they dont hold to their grudge as much (gotta make a story somehow). At this point, it doesnt matter if you didnt invite the legion. It did matter that you had power and were safely ignorant and did nothing.

Turalyon unlike her has no skeletons in his closet. The man is like father christmas and a light bulb packed into one shining armor. He became a paladin, he sacrificed everything to fight for his world and people, was ascended by a prime narru, took the fight to the burning legion and then returned home. It would be hard to locate a single moment in his career where you could point at and go "Ha! see! hes not soo clean!". The only point i can see is that X'era might have had a bit of a clouding hold over him that broke when Illidan smashed her, but that hasnt been proven its more my speculation than anything (when his eyes change color).

Her rebellion might have made the process efficient but it was not needed. She says so herself when you enter the room of Chromatic Anomaly, "how their fate rests in our hands". You will also notice that the person helping them get out of their mana addiction is not a shal'dorei. But a night elf rooted in druidic traditions from before the actual druids. So its not like people just left the nightborne to die. Which is the whole issue with them. The nightborne did nothing initially to save their world after being party to what caused the problem in the first place but this whole scenario in legion shows that in extreme contrast where nearly every other elven society came together to get them back on their feet.

So yea i support Tyrande over Thalysra, because she was and has been there when her race needed her. She didnt turn a blind eye, she didnt need to be on crutches begging for help and she in no way ever put them at risk for her own gain. They might have protrayed her a terrible character due to her romance with malfurion. But as a leader, who would you be safer with? Someone who stood by and then needed your help to rise up and now is deciding to go against you? Or someone who was just a civilian, grew into a role, helped her people and lead them to safety? Its a VERY EXTREMELY easy thing to see.

As for Alleria and Turalyon. What have they done to the horde? The future is yet to happen but so far, one just wants to meet her sister (she says so in her diagloue at the end of Argus the Unmaker) and the other will definitely support the alliance. I mean hell, we are the faction with Paladins, his military connections, have the draenei with us, Velen and a priest as our King. Him going alliance is far more obvious than shaldorei going horde or the void elves being a thing.

Both race additions are stupid. In a world which has gone from demonic invasion (1), undead invasion (2), complete terraforming (3), void forces faction wars (4), crazy time travelling battles (5) and another legion invasion (6), a sword shoved through the planet (7), you would think these guys have had not just enough but totally gone bankrupt in the wars. But no more to come i guess.

I will say though (this is just from voice files, until i see it in game, im not gonna base anything solid on it), when Alleria goes to Silvermoon, people call her our for attacking the sunwell and threatening Theron, but they seem to forget, he interrupts her first rudely and it doesnt seem like shes attacking more like she has no control, just like how she hurts when she tries to touch Turalyon. The light and void dont mix. Theron interrupts her the moment she took anduins name. Who knows? Maybe anduin was bringing peace? Maybe he was saying, hey Sylvannas might start shit but i just want you to know im not causing this". Because honestly half our shit happens by misunderstandings. Isnt that also the message that Varian gave the end of SoO? "During this madness, some of you chose to uphold honor. For that I am willing to end this blood shed. But know this, should your horde fail to uphold honor again, we will end you".

Varian changed. He learnt from Anduin.

I hope we can actually discuss this rather than shit fling.

- - - Updated - - -

So we're agreed then: Tury is fueled by hate? Like I said, "not very paladinly of him".

The problem here is that he probably got where he is now by fighting DEMON INFESTED orcs. You know, the red kind? The only reason there are green orcs in the horde currently is because of genetics. Turalyon is just a stereotyping bigot if he hates all orcs just because they're orcs. Again, based on hate instead of good, light-centric themes.

I know the light doesn't work like D&D paladins. But come on, the guy is full of contradictions.

SirCrowdog, I dont know if you are joking or not. But if you are not, they are not green because of genetics. Also Tirion uses the libram of protection, given to him by Faol. He didnt become a paladin through hating orcs as the other guy said. He was hand picked by Faol and trained to defend against the demonic horde.

[mickybrighteyes]

And the best thing about this... Garithos is completely irrelevant. Alleria left Azeroth before Garithos was a thing. She went through the Dark Portal I think in WC2, so Alleria never saw what the guy did. All she knew was a fairer Alliance.

Not to mention the Alliance of today is not the same Alliance of before.

Exactly...

Now what reason do the elves have to join up with some group of factions that aren't nearby and can't really help them directly without serious lore intervention. Maybe if this discussion took place AFTER the Undercity gets sacked and the warfronts push more towards Quel'thalas... but then you still have the less than cordial association of Sindorei and Silver Covenant.... Jaina wasn't the only one getting her hands dirty with elven blood in Dalaran.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Have you played this series of games at all?

The Horde that exists in-game is not the same Horde from WC1 and 2 at all. It is literally a completely different faction.

Horde should really work on their branding. Going with that old faction name has not been good for world peace.

[SirCowdog]

SirCrowdog, I dont know if you are joking or not. But if you are not, they are not green because of genetics.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember Thrall drinking demon blood. He was BORN that way. That's what I meant by genetics.

[Minikin]

I'm sorry, but I don't remember Thrall drinking demon blood. He was BORN that way. That's what I meant by genetics.

i know. but its in the book. when he was born his dad got all pissed off that his sons skin was green too, and he realized that what Guldan had done didnt just stop at the 1st gen but has gone on to the kids. So he goes down to meet blackhand and on the way back from that meeting Gul'dans assassins kill him and his wife. Its somewhere in chronicle 2.

So not like a genetic thing. Just the fel going through the generations.

- - - Updated - - -

And the best thing about this... Garithos is completely irrelevant. Alleria left Azeroth before Garithos was a thing. She went through the Dark Portal I think in WC2, so Alleria never saw what the guy did. All she knew was a fairer Alliance.

Not to mention the Alliance of today is not the same Alliance of before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye_K...tu.be&t=46m46s

Metzen says otherwise. starts at 46:52. The alliance of today is still that same faction. There have been alterations of course but it is the same.

Im sure just if Garithos encountered other people of the alliance they would have said something. Just like a bunch of alliance soldiers followed him, a whole bunch of orcs also followed garrosh when he pushed the other races to the sides.

[SirCowdog]

So not like a genetic thing. Just the fel going through the generations.

Uh....ok... Demon blood in their veins...which is passed onto their children... Yeah. TOTALLY not genetic. :/

[Ielenia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye_K...tu.be&t=46m46s

Metzen says otherwise. starts at 46:52. The alliance of today is still that same faction. There have been alterations of course but it is the same.

Im sure just if Garithos encountered other people of the alliance they would have said something. Just like a bunch of alliance soldiers followed him, a whole bunch of orcs also followed garrosh when he pushed the other races to the sides.

I said "the Alliance of today is not the same Alliance of before" in the same vein you're not the same person you were in the past. Yes, you're the same physical person, but you changed. Your priorities changed, your way of thinking changed, etc.

[LanToaster]

I haven't read the latest book. Is this confirmed? That Horde started the fight? Cause last I saw in the trailer for BfA it was Alliance attacking Undercity.

I´m Honest with you. For me it was never in question. Alone Logically:
They give you two things that sparked the war, one illustration of Sylvanas standing at darkshore looking at Teldrassil. And one Cinematic, where we join in as the game starts.

As they dont want to give away what happens after the Intro cuts out. It stands to reason, the burning of Teldrassil comes first. I´m not saying its out of mailce or drive to war. But I´m positive its the Burning that happens beforehand.

Especially, because most of the time the Alliance gets reminded: "Hey, dont make war", while i´ve never (except thrall) seen any Horde Char advocating peace. (Correct me if I´m wrong with example though).

But the main thing is: I´m sure I saw an Interview on Blizzcon where a dev answered the question which came first with the Burning of Teldrassil.

But on topic:
Tyralion never was Horde. Just because you quest and fight alongside my Dwarf Paladin, doesnt mean we´re buddies. Coming BFA, I´ll see your HordeScum head on a Pike.
I dont even care who started it in the End. Burning of Teldrassil, not cool. NOT COOL.

[Minikin]

I said "the Alliance of today is not the same Alliance of before" in the same vein you're not the same person you were in the past. Yes, you're the same physical person, but you changed. Your priorities changed, your way of thinking changed, etc.

Ahhhhh ok my bad. Thought u meant like the organization. Yea I can agree to that. They have to change to alliance by changing the Horde. Until recently it is the superpower, but they have to give the horde something to even out the odds. Personally think BfA will do that more than anything then eventually we will all join up again and take on the void.

- - - Updated - - -

Uh....ok... Demon blood in their veins...which is passed onto their children... Yeah. TOTALLY not genetic. :/

"This should have been a beautiful moment for Draka and Durotan. Instead it filled them with horror. Their son's skin was green. He was infected with the orc's blood curse. For Durotan this was the last straw".

Hey, I dont care either way. there are certain things in lore that are clear cut and solid. Like Durotan and Ogrim never drank from the blood of Mannoroth. Like how Ogrims guards were actually Guld'an's spies. Other things are left up to the reader. Those inferences at least for me are just opinions. If you are of the opinion its genetic. Sure. I am not gonna be like one of those guys on these forums who try to steer the argument to make you see in only my opinion. It is all the same to me, its all inference. To me, in my humble opinion, blood curse and magic =/= genetics.

- - - Updated - - -

Exactly...

Now what reason do the elves have to join up with some group of factions that aren't nearby and can't really help them directly without serious lore intervention. Maybe if this discussion took place AFTER the Undercity gets sacked and the warfronts push more towards Quel'thalas... but then you still have the less than cordial association of Sindorei and Silver Covenant.... Jaina wasn't the only one getting her hands dirty with elven blood in Dalaran.

What is interesting is that until Jaina did that and until Aethas Sunreaver royally screwed up, Theron was in talks with Varian to join the alliance.

What is even more interesting is that, as much as Alleria "might (still gotta have them meet so i dunno yet)" lose her mind over how her sister is leading the people who destroyed and threatened azeroth, she is now welcoming the faction that follows the workings of darkan'dathir. Who did far more damage to the sindorei than any other faction.

[SirCowdog]

Especially, because most of the time the Alliance gets reminded: "Hey, dont make war", while i´ve never (except thrall) seen any Horde Char advocating peace. (Correct me if I´m wrong with example though).

Baine is a pretty massive peace-monger in the books, as you'd expect from a tauren. Other than that, I'm not gonna lie: Horde sorta lives for honorable battle.

But on topic:
Tyralion never was Horde. Just because you quest and fight alongside my Dwarf Paladin, doesnt mean we´re buddies. Coming BFA, I´ll see your HordeScum head on a Pike.

I dont even care who started it in the End. Burning of Teldrassil, not cool. NOT COOL.

The problem is like someone earlier pointed out: We spent all of Legion hanging out in our order halls, crossing faction lines to work together. And now suddenly we're meant to believe that all that work is forgotten because "reasons". It just doesn't make sense. The entire Horde vs Alliance thing hasn't made sense for a long time now. Every single leader knows that their general population of warriors are pretty honorable people, with only a handful of idiots causing trouble. Yet somehow that always equates to: "Rrrrr! Alliance bad! Me kill!" or "Those horde dogs are up to their treachery again!"

It's twisting the writing in a bad way, all just to fit the outdated two-faction mechanic. :/

[Khirok]

Why would Turalyon join the Horde? wot

[LanToaster]

The problem is like someone earlier pointed out: We spent all of Legion hanging out in our order halls, crossing faction lines to work together. And now suddenly we're meant to believe that all that work is forgotten because "reasons". It just doesn't make sense. The entire Horde vs Alliance thing hasn't made sense for a long time now. Every single leader knows that their general population of warriors are pretty honorable people, with only a handful of idiots causing trouble. Yet somehow that always equates to: "Rrrrr! Alliance bad! Me kill!" or "Those horde dogs are up to their treachery again!"

I Agree with you on the Orderhall part, it may be a bit strange. But seeing it realisticly, while in our Order, we are not part of the Faction, coming BFA, we heroes are required (because of not disclosed reasons, but I hope good one) to join the Military.

But again, if it were up to me, Most of the Horde would not be allowed in my Orderhall. ^^

[SirCowdog]

I Agree with you on the Orderhall part, it may be a bit strange. But seeing it realisticly, while in our Order, we are not part of the Faction, coming BFA, we heroes are required (because of not disclosed reasons, but I hope good one) to join the Military.

But again, if it were up to me, Most of the Horde would not be allowed in my Orderhall. ^^

I mean, you'd think all these super-capable, intelligent people would maybe...MAYBE double check with their trusted friends and contacts from the other side before going full ape-shit all out war?


ANDUIN: "Yo...hey...um...Baine? You know that big tree up north? Did you Horde guys...um...I don't know. Set it on fire?"

BAINE: "Bruh!"

[shade3891]

How you think I feel shedding blood, sweat, and tears to save the Nightborne and they join the Blood Elves and the Horde because both them and Belves were former addicts!

I rerolled and do not plan to have them this time !! Hanging out Tyrande instead.

[Logwyn]

Please point out where her leadership did anything in the WoW story?

Why does a leader have to do something? Sometimes leadership and steering the same path is the better course to take. What would you have her do exactly?

[Minikin]

Thalyssra was not in a position of power during the war of the ancients. Elisande was calling the shots then and she decided Suramar would cease supporting Azshara. She was the one who ordered sealing Suramar off to protect it from the sundering. She is the one responsible for the state of Suramar. Not Thalyssra.
So what? Tyrande needs to see a people be proven as 'saving the world' to her before she supports them? What the hell did the humans or the rest of the Alliance 'prove' to the night elves? They were every bit as destructive as the Horde. Additionally her first encounter with the Blood Elves under a more sane Kael'thas were very cordial and proper. It was Maiev who loathed them, especially since Kael'thas called out her lie to Malfurion. There is no reason Tyrande couldn't have seen it as her place to help guide the Nightborne and reintroduce them to Elune and nature, things they hadn't *totally* abandoned. Bad writing made Tyrande a stick in the mud (being concerned about arcane use when humans use it like they breathe air). The slap in the face was not letting players choose their path with a dual faction race in the Nightborne, were some go to the Night Elves and others go to the Blood Elves.
The hell she has. Tyrande has done absolutely nothing for the Night Elves since WoW began. Please point out where her leadership did anything in the WoW story? Don't go back to warcraft 3. She just nodded her head and did whatever the human high king demanded. She wasn't fighting on the front line against the Horde. Tyrande shouldn't even be a racial leader, she's more concerned with 'bigger picture' issues, like Malfurion, so they should both piss off and be neutral. At least they realised that you can't have someone stay a racial leader when you're going to make them be concerned with the bigger picture when they took Thrall out as Warchief.
What night elves needed was a leader concerned with defending their realm, not a leader concerned with the state of the planet and her annoyingly useless husband.

1. Edit: not sure about this part totally, so could be wrong:Thalyssra was first arcanist. You dont need to be in a position of power to care for your people. You just have to do something rather than just be like "oh well im sitting in my sick house and perfect magical barrier, who cares what happens to the commoners". Rebelling 10 thousand years later after seeing first hand what the legion doesnt do much besides, "oh NOW i see how bad the demons are". She was in a better position than Illidan, Tyrande or Malfurion. Did nothing.

2. Tyrande doesnt need any proving. If she did, she wouldnt have shown up in Suramar in the first place. Just because she is cold towards the nightborne is normal. What would be abnormal is if she was all chummy with them, because that would go against completely what the highborne were upto in the war of the ancients. Not to mention, that it has to be this way. The nightborne have to join the horde, because not only do the horde need them it would make far less sense for them to join the alliance. albiet void elves make even less sense.

Tyrande helped heal her people, malfurion used cenarius teachings to set back Xavius and multiple other occassions, Illidan though his motives at that time were pretty whack also did something. The point is, these three were like children as far as night elves go. Compared to people like Vashj, Azshara, Xavius, Ellisande, Thalysra, Ravencrest, they were nothing in reputation and younger. But they did something. They didnt just run or they didnt just try to make themselves safer while their people got decimated. Maiev is just the village crazy. Every story has one. The current one is called Greymane.

The humans again had to prove nothing. They fought the horde off. They formed the alliance of lorderon.

This has nothing to do with people proving anything to Tyrande, the night elves or any other faction. It is simply just how a character is. Like i said, i dont totally support her character linear thinking but thats not my call its the writers call. To tyrande highborne + arcane user = legion bringers. Now we can weep and argue over that all we want but I think that will lead to a fairly circular argument.

What cant be argued is that compared to the nightborne her record is clean. No one needs to make a statement like "well Tyrande wasnt in power here and thus she couldnt do anything for her people while they got murdered". They can definitely ask that in the direction of ANY highborne. This is in the books.

The whole thing is bad writing but what can you do, this is the direction blizzzrd is going. They do have to even the odds. For too long alliance has basically been the global superpower. Horde is now gaining grown and the field is balancing.

3. The books are more than enough to show what she has done. And honestly, what does she need to do? Ive played night elf druid since I started the game in bc. I dont need the woman to go out and conquer the lands and show the orcs whats up. Its not their thing. And honestly this is the only point i heavily disagree with you on (the other two i can debate and there are chances to convince), but not the 3rd. Honestly blood elves, nightelves, high elves and nightborne should really not be part of ANY FACTION or ANY WAR. they are a thousands of years old civilization. Nearly all of them maxed their potential and reached either cultural or magical heights ages AGES, before any other faction. The only other race that should compete with them on cultural and magical terms are the Draenei/Eredar.

Civilizations that have reached such a stage realize that war profits no one and only hinders progress. They dont need to be a part of every lousy quibble garrosh or high king whowhatsnameis start up. They are beyond that, should have ascended beyond that.

That is why malfurion doesnt take part in this shit. He realizes that there is a world to take care of. Magni has reached that level. Khadgar has reached that level. Thrall has reached that level. Velen has reached that level. These back alley squabbles between, honestly, Stormwind and Ogrimmar with Undercity and Gilneas being the snot nosed kids yelling "fight fight fight" are just children having a go at each other.

Tyrande is fine. She did the one thing most of these others goofs didnt do, is simply not stand in fire. Because honestly how stupid does it feel, 1 expansion red is dead, then HOLY SHIT lets join forces and win! and moment thats done, oh yea i hate you btw and the circle goes on and on and on.

[mickybrighteyes]

The humans again had to prove nothing. They fought the horde off. They formed the alliance of lorderon.

with respect to reasons for the elves to join up with the allaince as it is seen in wow...

the Alliance of Lordaeron was basically destroyed prior to the night elves joining. What with the joining getting hamfisted in during the time between WC3 and WoW and Lordaeron and all the various groups in teh region getting removed form the plot somehow or transitioning into Stormwind (note, that's key figures and not the whole groups). It's really never quite gone into why the night elves joined up beyond stereotypical elf/drawf/human faction and that the Forsaken got in game as a non-alliance race >.> so.... eh?