[potential spoilers] fight in silithus

[Torrasque]

I don't really consider this "an act of aggression" though, not when you consider the scope of what the Horde is so avidly collecting: Azurite, the most potently volatile substance in the known realm. The Horde is actively collecting a volatile substance, and are expecting that any involvement would be hostile. Which, no shit, if you were collecting the reagents for WMDs, you should expect a harsh reprisal from other nations. The simple act of collecting it would be a severe threat to every other nation and a massive "act of aggression" by itself, before the Alliance is even involved. The shear comparison from "collecting resources to build WMDs" to "Rigging construction equipment with explosives to send a message to stop digging for volatile resources" are VERY different things.

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..Not really...

Say.... Italy, sends agents to sabotage Chinas power system and murder government officials... what exactly do you think the consequences would be?

You are ignoring the fact that Azerite is extremely volatile, the most volatile substance in the known realm. In your example, the assassination of China's government officials would have prevented them from illegally orchestrating the trade of the highest grade of brand new WMD resources, which is illegal and breaks the terms of treaty to begin with. From a worldview perspective, those that ordered the assassins would be seen as heroes that prevented WW3 by preventing a new age of WMDs to be built.

[Rhlor]

I think he is just jealous that the Nightborne don't control the entirety of the Broken Isles.

The Temple was in good shape, the Druid order hall is there, the towns are fine, and with the Legion and Xavius gone it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize they will work on fixing the nightmare corrupted areas if they already haven't been purged since Xavius' death.

They have shaladrassil !!

[Rhlor]

Shaladrassil is the epicenter of the nightmare. Why don't you move Tauren there and give Thunder Bluff to the Night Elves?

The nightmare ended! now they can cure the corruption

[TrueHorde]

SI:7 Operative says: Horde scum!Die!
SI:7 Operative says: Don't die too quickly!I want to enjoy this.
SI:7 Operative says: Death is upon you!

[Deleted]

Listen to the voicefiles and the drive behind the Horde going to Silithus in the first place. It is not to save a kitten in distress, to say the least. It probably saved the Alliance in the long run as Sylvanas intended to go for Stormwind all these years.

The Alliance seems to be lucky when it comes to foiling Sylvanas' plans; pursuing one goal, they achieve another they weren't even aware of. Greymane foiled her plans in Stormheim, saving the Alliance in the process and the sabotage in Silithus will probably have saved them during BfA.

This, so much.

I mean ... how dare the Alliance try to protect itself from a Warchief who tried to wipe out an entire Human kingdom in an unprovoked war? Because nothing screams 'lasting peace' like a genocidal maniac producing weapons of mass destructing. Heck, Sylvanas doesn't even care for the life of her own allies. And even if she did, it wouldn't matter because she's shown herself to be too much of a liability through all of her previous actions, including those at Stormheim. The Alliance simply can't trust her. If the Horde wants peace, it needs to sack Sylvanas.

Considering the circumstances, the question of who strikes first is wholly irrelevant. And I think that's the point Blizzard is trying to make. Explicitly so with Khadgar's dialogue in 7.3.5.

[Deleted]

To be fair, for Camp Taurajo, I would burn every Alliance city to the ground.

Sure thing buddy. Players can at best burn their own house down.

[Rhlor]

Let the Tauren do that. The Darkspear can help too.

High mountain is a good place

I understand what you want to say but in this situation the night elves could move to valshara

[Magnagarde]

This, so much.

I mean ... how dare the Alliance try to protect itself from a Warchief who tried to wipe out an entire Human kingdom in an unprovoked war? Because nothing screams 'lasting peace' like a genocidal maniac producing weapons of mass destructing. Heck, Sylvanas doesn't even care for the life of her own allies. And even if she did, it wouldn't matter because she's shown herself to be too much of a liability through all of her previous actions, including those at Stormheim. The Alliance simply can't trust her. If the Horde wants peace, it needs to sack Sylvanas.

Considering the circumstances, the question of who strikes first is wholly irrelevant. And I think that's the point Blizzard is trying to make. Explicitly so with Khadgar's dialogue in 7.3.5.

By making a character like Sylvanas warchief, it is obvious peace isn't possible. You can't keep even a shred of coherent writing if her being warchief doesn't throw a wrench into relations between the Horde and the Alliance. Gilneas, the territories of former Lordaeron, Alterac, Hillsbrad, Stromgarde and much more have all seen their own share of Forsaken attrocities.

To think that Sylvanas being warchief leaves any option for peace between the Horde and the Alliance is ridiculous. If the Alliance was lead by Garithos and Daelin Proudmoore, then I'd at least understand that the desire to kill eachother off runs deep within both factions, but as of right now the picture is crystal clear. Blizzard made her warchief with the purpose of making Battle for Azeroth viable and possible, because nothing spells war as much as making Sylvanas warchief. There is no logical template under which the Alliance could be at peace with her, which is highlighted even further when it was revealed that she wants Stormwind for all these years.

I honestly can't wait to see Saurfang as warchief. They've set it all up very nicely.

[adamzz]

Wrong Horde. The WC1 and WC2 Horde are not the same Horde as the modern Horde so this argument carries 0 weight.
It'd be like holding a grudge against modern Germany for WWII.

Also, you yourself already are shifting the blame from the orcs onto Kil'Jaeden who manipulated the once relatively peaceful orc clans who actually shared the planet with the INVASIVE culture of the Eredar (who renamed themselves Dreanai post-TBC lore cockup retcon)

I'm actually defending the Alliance for being, if not justified, at least not unjustly aggressive.

Basic fact: The Horde player characters and majority of NPCs, on the DnD alignment scale, fall into the neutral to good part of the spectrum. Go and level a horde character, see for yourself.

No, if we continue with your ww2 analogy Germany stopped attacking other countries when they lost and their leader killed himself.

The Horde is the same Horde, your longest running warchief was born from two of the first invaders, your capital is named after one of the first invaders. You are still attacking native inhabitants of Azeroth, killing them, enslaving them, taking them to prison, doing horrendous bioweapon tests on them etc. How are you different from the Horde that invaded other than not following KJs orders? You are still doing the same things as you did before.

We were close to peace because of Jaina and Thrall, even Varian got convinced to put some trust in you. Was that a well placed trust? Considering your current warchief literally only cares about immortal life and would even throw her own faction under the bus if given the chance and we are getting a full out war between the factions, I would say that the Horde is still evil.

Jaina was a fool to try to create peace, she learned that the hard way. Unfortunately she got Varian killed by convincing him to put trust in the Horde.

No. I'm not shifting the blame to KJ... Are you stupid? That's like saying Archimonde, KJ and the Eredar didn't do anything wrong because they just listened to Sargeras. Your beloved Horde is to blame for listening to KJ.

Yes, the Draenei was an invasive culture. But they used their magic to seclude their village and they lived in hiding because they knew they didn't belong and didn't want to affect the natives. The Horde invaded Azeroth and immediately started a war, they attacked natives then and they never stopped.

I have leveled several Horde characters, I don't know about you but enslaving humans, burrying them in the ground and bashing their heads with a spade, testing bioweapons on them etc doesnt really sound like something good. That sounds evil.

[Talsar]

Eh, the horde always wheedles it's way out of responsibility for all the atrocities it's committed. "it was the demon blood's fault!", "It was Garrosh's fault!" and on and on.
The alliance should just wipe out a horde city and then blame it on Sky Admiral whatsherface so that we can come to the forums and pretend we're all good like horde posters do.

[Zorish]

Don't you doing this every time Aliance doing some sh*t? like "it's for the high cause!" something? It's because elves are different we leave them! it's for defending my kingdom i took cursed sword! it's for the sake of defending my people i build the wall between us! it's for "betrayal" we wiped Alterac! it's because they are undead we kill them (even if they have free will and live on their native lands).

Both factions full of stupid people (both in lore and as players). Don't be one of them

[sam86]

Pfft, unlike the Horde, I doubt the Alliance aim to use it as WMD.

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You mean like when the horde invaded through a planet to wipe out all life?

no i mean the alliance race Draenei who caused the extinction of life of countless life forms from unlimited number of planets by being chased from BL instead of stand and fight like minority did in the army of light (that we meet in argus) came to Draenor a planet that Archimonde scolded Kil'jaeden for caring about it because it had no titan marks in it (Legion goal is to undo Titans work, not attack anything on sight if u don't know) and due to them they ruin Draenor forever and turn the shamanitic race of Orcs that never caused massive war turn to horde and kill each others like whiteclaw clan to be wiped out and do atrocities under the blood influence to everyone - including each others - and pay the price of dare to exist in the path of an alliance race
btw the old horde is not new horde and enemy to both the playable faction horde and playable faction alliance, and current new horde members who were members of old horde don't consider their action were right and spit on it, like Saurfang clear talk with Garrosh

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What I am implying is that both factions, both the modern post-WC2 Horde and the Alliance have plenty to atone for and while I certainly enjoy listing events like these to the overly sensitive highly vocal alliance minority that hates the horde without ever trying to view things from the Horde side, lets be realistic and acknowledge that just like the Horde, the Alliance default ethics code lies on the Neutral to Good scale of the DnD alignment chart.
Similarly you might do well actually leveling an Alliance character and see their viewpoint and what monsters we look like to them at times... the times when we're not teaming up to save the planet.

But I have no real interest in defending the Alliance's honour, I'll leave that to the shoutier alliance zealots. #notallalliance I know plenty of Alliance players that are perfectly reasonable.

And yes... I have always favoured the Horde, even when we were gleefully summoning demons, spiders and undead while besieging Stormwind with clouds of toxic gas conjured by warlocks. Or when my OG Deathknights threw around tornadoes of necrotic energy or when we had enslaved Alexstraza and compelled her children to reign death onto Alliance cities.
I enjoyed being a villain, just as much as I enjoyed Thrall redeeming the orcs and forming a new Horde based on shamanistic traditions and honour.
I love the orcs both as villains and as heroes and while I feel we currently sit on the heroic side of the coin, I will not deny that the Alliance over-all sits there too.
Now if only both sides would stop being such dicks to each other.

I did lvl as alliance, in fact entire vanilla experience for me was alliance, and it disgusted me
The injustice alliance did to Edwin VanCleef yet they consider him the 'criminal', not to mention alliance always ask horde for apology for their crimes, while denying they ever did, or what about Scarlet Crusade that was an alliance faction and - unlike their counterpart in horde Grimtotem - are actually considered 'heroes' in general eyes
I saw entire alliance pov, and while horde have serious anger management issues, they don't dilute themselves in lies and believe it at least
And of course horde have markrik wife that made me go back and forth in entire barrens until i hated u and me and life itself ...

[Deleted]

Shaladrassil is the epicenter of the nightmare. Why don't you move Tauren there and give Thunder Bluff to the Night Elves?

Because thats not the way the storyline is going at the moment. Nelfs are losing the tree, they will probably require somewhere else to live, its happening deal with it.

[Deleted]

Thanks god. Not another repeat of the last war!

[MrDragon]

No, if we continue with your ww2 analogy Germany stopped attacking other countries when they lost and their leader killed himself.

The Horde is the same Horde, your longest running warchief was born from two of the first invaders, your capital is named after one of the first invaders. You are still attacking native inhabitants of Azeroth, killing them, enslaving them, taking them to prison, doing horrendous bioweapon tests on them etc. How are you different from the Horde that invaded other than not following KJs orders? You are still doing the same things as you did before.

We were close to peace because of Jaina and Thrall, even Varian got convinced to put some trust in you. Was that a well placed trust? Considering your current warchief literally only cares about immortal life and would even throw her own faction under the bus if given the chance and we are getting a full out war between the factions, I would say that the Horde is still evil.

Jaina was a fool to try to create peace, she learned that the hard way. Unfortunately she got Varian killed by convincing him to put trust in the Horde.

No. I'm not shifting the blame to KJ... Are you stupid? That's like saying Archimonde, KJ and the Eredar didn't do anything wrong because they just listened to Sargeras. Your beloved Horde is to blame for listening to KJ.

Yes, the Draenei was an invasive culture. But they used their magic to seclude their village and they lived in hiding because they knew they didn't belong and didn't want to affect the natives. The Horde invaded Azeroth and immediately started a war, they attacked natives then and they never stopped.

I have leveled several Horde characters, I don't know about you but enslaving humans, burrying them in the ground and bashing their heads with a spade, testing bioweapons on them etc doesnt really sound like something good. That sounds evil.

no i mean the alliance race Draenei who caused the extinction of life of countless life forms from unlimited number of planets by being chased from BL instead of stand and fight like minority did in the army of light (that we meet in argus) came to Draenor a planet that Archimonde scolded Kil'jaeden for caring about it because it had no titan marks in it (Legion goal is to undo Titans work, not attack anything on sight if u don't know) and due to them they ruin Draenor forever and turn the shamanitic race of Orcs that never caused massive war turn to horde and kill each others like whiteclaw clan to be wiped out and do atrocities under the blood influence to everyone - including each others - and pay the price of dare to exist in the path of an alliance race
btw the old horde is not new horde and enemy to both the playable faction horde and playable faction alliance, and current new horde members who were members of old horde don't consider their action were right and spit on it, like Saurfang clear talk with Garrosh

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I did lvl as alliance, in fact entire vanilla experience for me was alliance, and it disgusted me
The injustice alliance did to Edwin VanCleef yet they consider him the 'criminal', not to mention alliance always ask horde for apology for their crimes, while denying they ever did, or what about Scarlet Crusade that was an alliance faction and - unlike their counterpart in horde Grimtotem - are actually considered 'heroes' in general eyes
I saw entire alliance pov, and while horde have serious anger management issues, they don't dilute themselves in lies and believe it at least
And of course horde have markrik wife that made me go back and forth in entire barrens until i hated u and me and life itself ...

How about the two of you go have a private debate, I'll admit I'm quietly rooting for sam86 because he's not running on hyperboly statements or cherry picking racial quest-lines where he's describing a rogue forsaken scientist in hillsbrad who is the end villain of the entire quest-line in a plants vs zombies minigame. Incedentally about the spade thing... you monster, you can just uproot the people by interacting with them instead of bashing their skulls in. :P
Just leave me out of this and enjoy the heroic fantasy with splashes of grey both factions now offer.
Both factions do fucked up shit but on the whole the player character of both sides is trying to make the world a better place.

[adamzz]

How about the two of you go have a private debate, I'll admit I'm quietly rooting for sam86 because he's not running on hyperboly statements or cherry picking racial quest-lines where he's describing a rogue forsaken scientist in hillsbrad who is the end villain of the entire quest-line in a plants vs zombies minigame. Incedentally about the spade thing... you monster, you can just uproot the people by interacting with them instead of bashing their skulls in. :P
Just leave me out of this and enjoy the heroic fantasy with splashes of grey both factions now offer.
Both factions do fucked up shit but on the whole the player character of both sides is trying to make the world a better place.

Yes, I agree that the spade quest was an extreme case of cherry picking. Doesn't change the fact that there are plenty quests from orcs that involve human slaves, other quests from normal forsaken characters where you experiment on various alliance members etc.

I'm not saying that the Alliance is 100% good. I agree that they do shady shit but going back to the D&D scale they are somewhere around neutral-good while the Horde is leaning more towards neutral-evil.

[MrDragon]

Yes, I agree that the spade quest was an extreme case of cherry picking. Doesn't change the fact that there are plenty quests from orcs that involve human slaves, other quests from normal forsaken characters where you experiment on various alliance members etc.

I'm not saying that the Alliance is 100% good. I agree that they do shady shit but going back to the D&D scale they are somewhere around neutral-good while the Horde is leaning more towards neutral-evil.

Then let's just politely disagree. The vast majority of horde quests make me feel like I'm a hero helping to fight off hostile invaders, demons, aberrations from beyond the realms of sanity or save those in need. Every now and then there is a quest-line which does indeed dip into war-crime territory. Particularly among the forsaken and blood elf crops of quests.

[ManiaCCC]

Sure thing buddy. Players can at best burn their own house down.

Are we still in RP mode? :P

[salate]

Well, Kadgar is right, why would they fight against each other after they endured so much?
Tbh, I always wanted an expac where we work together somehow, speak with each other, forgetting about conflict and raid together, yeah that would destoy the whole concept of Warcraft, so it'd be come peacecraft, but damn, we've got enough examples where people of the horde and the alliance work together in order to achive something kewl and good.

But anyway there are RP, PVE realms aswell, where people dont even think about pvp activities (as i believe). Wouldnt be bad to make a BG-brawl like where the alliance and the horde fight between each other, no matter what faction they are. Just made a... Fight Club party and having fun. Damn we fought first time together (legion pre-event) I had the shiver, something I always wanted to see, the horde and the alliance finally worked together, so i thought maybe we will get something like that in future... Aha-aha, want more, salateur, let it lead to another conflict...

Eh, dreams-dreams, they never come true. Even when i ship Maiev and Illidan, Illidan chooses... you know who.

[Mehrunes]

Makes sense. Given how Sargeras destroyed any Night Elven (neutral ones, but still) holdings in Silithus, the Horde was closer to the area to claim the blood of Azeroth.

Calm down buddy, this ain't /pol/.

Horde have been the bad guys ever since, going with what they did over the course of the game's history, they would have been wiped out by now, but somehow, there was always some alliance hero who suddenly went neutral along with the usual speech saying something about setting our differences aside and uniting and all that.

Now it's nothing different, Sylvanas feels like she won the war against the legion and therefore the power goop in Silithus belongs to her. Alliance would be retarded if they didn't do SOMETHING against it, considering horde's rich history of fucking up the world(s).

Rich history of fucking up the worlds? You mean like Draenei dooming countless worlds by dragging the Legion in tow? Or Malfurion causing a bigger shattering than Deathwing's? Also, Alliance started hostilities in Alterac Valley, Dustwallow, Barrens. Alliance started the WotLK-MoP war. Alliance broke the post-WotLK truce in that war. Alliance attacked the Horde in Legion. And power gloop belongs to the one who got to it first. In this case it was Horde. Alliance being slow is no justification for acts of war. Also, with your horseshit portrayal of game progression in first paragraph as context, I like how Horde being faster than the Alliance to claim the worldblood is "nothing different" from your boogeyman portrayal of the Horde.

So the Alliance attacked the Horde first for gathering a substance that will (likely) result in WMDs, a substance that the Horde has 'laid claim to' with no actual you know, claim to it.

It belonging to no one before their claim is the legal validation of their claim.

It is an unprovoked attack on Horde, yeah, but too minor to be a catalyst for all-out war. I feel whatever led to burning Teldrassil down, this was at best a sidenote. Could be Stormheim's assault was enough, since it wasn't only a major unprovoked attack on Horde, it also got very personal with Sylvanas.

There was a war that started over a wooden bucket. An armed attack is more than enough of a justification for war.

yeah good point, i was like "eh alliance doing abit of agent work whatever, seems alliance will be the first step to starting this war" but no really, the horde steps in, starts gathering this stuff and like holy shit maybe dont?

its as if an alien ship crash landed in the ocean then all of a sudden russia started collecting the scraps, you think the US wouldent step in like "nah fuck that shit you lot cant take a futurist weapon that could blow up the whole world"

Aside from Blamblam's "good point" relying on an understanding of property rights and claims lower than that of a rock, if US attacked the Russians to make them stop, they'd be the aggressors. There's this thing called diplomacy. And, in your example, also international law and international organizations. In the example of Azeroth, aside from the Alliance attacking the Horde, they also have fuck all of an authority to tell the Horde "maybe don't", nor international law to back their demands.

I am going to take the "genius" road and perhaps ask you to WAIT FOR HORDE QUEST-LINE where they likely will do the same to alliance?

I mean we already have a chapter from Golden's coming book where goblin miners are planning to murder Alliance miners for azerite.

Much obviousness. Ofcoure OP can't understand

Great comprehension of the content of the OP and the topic at large, you paragon of understanding.