[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Rockyreg]

Dude it's the other way around. It's the UK that wants to leave making a border mandatory, the deal is there to please North Ireland and Ireland not the EU.

Really? So what if Ireland and Northern Ireland just agreed that neither will put up a border?

[zealo]

Because if France find the idea of having an open border to NI/UK via the RoI is just unworkable for them they they can either lump it or close their border with RoI to fix their problem, they shouldn't expect other countries to solve their problem for them.



The EU knew full well when it agreed to treaties with the UK/RoI that we already had existing treaties which superseded the EU ones in the event or either of us withdrawing.

RoI is not a British satellite state to bully as they please.

Suggesting RoI should close their border to France just to spare the UK the trouble of dealing with the issue is naive, and that's putting it mildly.

[Noradin]

Who would enforce the Vienna Convention with regards to supposedly breaking the treaty?

Who would want to enter any treaty with a nation that reneged on the Vienna Convention the very moment it became inconvenient?

[Slant]

The mask has slipped, the faux solidarity between member states has again been shown up, thanks. You make out the UK/IRE relationship is a one-way thing, do you no longer care how it will affect Ireland?

What I asked about 5 pages back and nobody can seem to answer. How can the EU offer a CETA type deal based upon the joint agreement that they now want to make a legal document? Not a hard question is it?

It's not a faux solidarity, as much as you're trying to goad us into admitting it. You're essentially saying what Ireland wants is as important as what 25 other countries want at the same time. Solidarity doesn't quite work like that. We are showing solidarity with Ireland in that they are going to be the ones that decide whether or not a deal can happen. We're also showing solidarity by offering the UK solutions that are not strictly within what we'd do with other countries. We do that, because Ireland is involved. But at some point, we have to ask Ireland... is this worth it? Is betraying the fundamental core principles that the EU is based on and that the EU stands for worth squabbling over a border that is rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things? And mostly because the British are children that can't actually solve ridiculous problems like the NI question like adults?

No, sir. The EU is not worth sacrificing over a bunch of children in NI that cannot behave themselves. And ultimately, Ireland, a country that we bailed out and allowed a very loose tax policy for, will agree with the EU. As much as Great Britain would like that, they're far from driving a wedge between EU nations. And that's what your secret wish really is. Because if the EU suceeds without the UK, and it seems to be doing very well, thank you, that would mean the UK has made not only the wrong decision, but a very silly wrong decision that they were warned about before time and again.

The EU isn't offering any type of deal at this point. The EU is trying to find out what it is the UK actually wants. Because right now, the UK couldn't accept any type of deal because the UK has no fucking clue what the UK actually wants. The EU has made a compromise with the UK that is very vague and almost just a letter of intent. Now that the UK has reneged on said agreement mere days after it was agreed upon, the EU insists of putting any agreement into legal text and having it ratified by the UK Government.

You know what this means? It means "vague phrasing" is no longer possible. It means we're shooting now with live ammunittion. No second tries here. That means May won't get another chance at a loose phrasing that she can somehow try to sell as a win back home. The EU has played nice, it got punished for it. Expect the gloves to come off. Because the UK has proven once more to be untrustworthy and a bad faith negotiator.

[Rockyreg]

Ireland can't do that.

Exactly, so as an EU members State Ireland will need assistance from the EU in coming to a workable solution alongside the UK, its in everyone's interests. It would be much more helpful than just slinging out 'UK has chosen to leave therefore it is up to the UK to solve it'.

[Slant]

Hahaa, yeah, we'll see.

That's a funny thing. You guys keep repeating it. And yes, we are seeing. The UK is caving on any demand it makes only to later renege on the caving. A deal seems impossible, not because of the outrageous demands, but more because the UK's word isn't worth the air it was spoken with.

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From Slant:

''Thus whatever relationship you may have with the RoI is your problem, not ours. Out means out''

Great solidarity, amazing! Basically ROI can go fuck themselves is what you are saying.

You're intentionally misrepresenting what I said. The RoI is in our interest. But what the UK thinks about the whole matter is not. There's a fine difference. It's also the reason why the RoI suddenly holds all the cards and can end all negotiation with their veto without even having to bother justifying it. That's how much we stand behind them, every single one of the member states is behind the RoI.

Do you still not get how the EU works? Do you still think you're dealing with an equal? This is what the EU does, mate. Bully one of us and all of us bully you back. Using the RoI as a bargaining chip will get you nothing but scorn.

[Rockyreg]

Who would want to enter any treaty with a nation that reneged on the Vienna Convention the very moment it became inconvenient?

I think others will see this for the special case it is. Other nations will see that the options the EU has suggested are too much for a sovereign nation to bear.

[Slant]

The UK can not unilaterally decide what is going to happen with regards to the border.

The UK can unilaterally decide what's going to happen to the UK side of the border. As can the EU. We don't need the UK's permission to close the border.

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So basically you are saying you can leave the EU (but really you can't)

No, what we're saying is, you can leave the EU. Or you can stay in it. Or choose any intermediary state of being "half in" that we put out. But you will bear the consequences of each option. And yes, it is our part to determine how your participation looks like. Our house, our rules. You do not get to force your way in however you want. You do not get to dictate the EU how your access to the EU looks like. You will be able to express wishes and the EU will try to accomodate them as much as they can, mostly because of a sense of loyalty and brotherhood despite all. But ultimately, you do not get to bitch and whinge when the EU rejects your wishes, some or all of them. You will have to eventually accept that the EU is calling the shots here. That's been told to you for almost 2 years now. Complaining about it now won't help you.

[Slant]

So basically, you acknowledge that UK border security is even harder to breach than mainland EU border security, but are still opposed to RoI/NI having an open border, just because? No offense but you're sounding a tad like the brexiteer there with their reasoning of "but mah sovereignty!".

There's a difference. UK sovereignty is guaranteed by law. The UK being a proper guard for an open border while they're not part of the EU is not. Unless, of course, you mean to say that the UK would take up the responsibility of guarding their open border (which would then be our external border once more) in lieu of the EU. With all the regulations required. You know, like a member state.

We're really going in circles here. You can be in the EEA or you can choose not to be in the EEA. But you do not get to force the EU to open their border to external forces just to accomodate what is essentially a national hiccup and ultimately a domestic matter of the UK.

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Because if France find the idea of having an open border to NI/UK via the RoI is just unworkable for them they they can either lump it or close their border with RoI to fix their problem, they shouldn't expect other countries to solve their problem for them.

The EU knew full well when it agreed to treaties with the UK/RoI that we already had existing treaties which superseded the EU ones in the event or either of us withdrawing.

So essentially, you'd like to manhandle the RoI into a situation where they are effectively not a member state of the EU in all but paper anymore? Gee, you really think you can get that accepted? Ireland surely would like the UK to force them into an international situation that nobody in Ireland wanted or even had a chance to get a say in before. Surprising how unscrupulous you want to decide the fate of Ireland for them.

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No because it's not our problem it's France/EU's. RoI/UK are both fine with an open border between RoI/UK and RoI/France, it's France that has the issue with it.

France/EU don't want a hard border between France/RoI, they also don't want an open one between RoI/UK. The problem is those are their only options.

You keep making the same mistake that Trump is making. You keep thinking you can just deal with one nation in the EU. That doesn't work. The one and only entity for you to deal with is the EU. As a whole.

[Rockyreg]

It's not a faux solidarity, as much as you're trying to goad us into admitting it. You're essentially saying what Ireland wants is as important as what 25 other countries want at the same time. Solidarity doesn't quite work like that. We are showing solidarity with Ireland in that they are going to be the ones that decide whether or not a deal can happen. We're also showing solidarity by offering the UK solutions that are not strictly within what we'd do with other countries. We do that, because Ireland is involved. But at some point, we have to ask Ireland... is this worth it? Is betraying the fundamental core principles that the EU is based on and that the EU stands for worth squabbling over a border that is rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things? And mostly because the British are children that can't actually solve ridiculous problems like the NI question like adults?

No, sir. The EU is not worth sacrificing over a bunch of children in NI that cannot behave themselves. And ultimately, Ireland, a country that we bailed out and allowed a very loose tax policy for, will agree with the EU. As much as Great Britain would like that, they're far from driving a wedge between EU nations. And that's what your secret wish really is. Because if the EU suceeds without the UK, and it seems to be doing very well, thank you, that would mean the UK has made not only the wrong decision, but a very silly wrong decision that they were warned about before time and again.

The EU isn't offering any type of deal at this point. The EU is trying to find out what it is the UK actually wants. Because right now, the UK couldn't accept any type of deal because the UK has no fucking clue what the UK actually wants. The EU has made a compromise with the UK that is very vague and almost just a letter of intent. Now that the UK has reneged on said agreement mere days after it was agreed upon, the EU insists of putting any agreement into legal text and having it ratified by the UK Government.

You know what this means? It means "vague phrasing" is no longer possible. It means we're shooting now with live ammunittion. No second tries here. That means May won't get another chance at a loose phrasing that she can somehow try to sell as a win back home. The EU has played nice, it got punished for it. Expect the gloves to come off. Because the UK has proven once more to be untrustworthy and a bad faith negotiator.

I don't have to goad you into anything you did that all by yourself and come across as a complete arrogant twat as you always do on here. You went as far as to prompt a person who is your side of the debate to distance themselves from you and your comments. And yet, 50 words later you are looking down your nose at Ireland again it beggars belief.

As for the UK not knowing what it wants I think its abundantly clear what it wants, as it is clear what the EU wants. There eventually will be give and take and a deal will be done. I accept there will be more give from the UK side, thats just the nature of this but hopefully you and your emotional deficiencies will not be shown by the people negotiating this deal.

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Indeed, I don't even understand what is under discussion here. What IS the other option? A hi-tech solution? That could work for goods. What about people? EU residents can freely get to the RoI and then can just . . . wonder off to the UK? No border of any kind there, no sea border either. What's stopping all of the Jungle from taking a ship to Dublin and then crossing the non-bonder? It's not a threat by the EU, it's just something the EU itself will not be able to deal with nor does it have a duty to.

Its all about goods, people is not going to be the issue here.

[Slant]

I think others will see this for the special case it is. Other nations will see that the options the EU has suggested are too much for a sovereign nation to bear.

What other nations? The EU doesn't care what nations outside Europe think about this situation. Nobody has authority in this situation but the EU and the UK. There are no other parties that matter.

[Slant]

I don't have to goad you into anything you did that all by yourself and come across as a complete arrogant twat as you always do on here. You went as far as to prompt a person who is your side of the debate to distance themselves from you and your comments. And yet, 50 words later you are looking down your nose at Ireland again it beggars belief.

As for the UK not knowing what it wants I think its abundantly clear what it wants, as it is clear what the EU wants. There eventually will be give and take and a deal will be done. I accept there will be more give from the UK side, thats just the nature of this but hopefully you and your emotional deficiencies will not be shown by the people negotiating this deal.

You've done so well until now. Personal attacks? So basically you're done with your arguments? Great. I don't see how "25 nations are behind Ireland" comes across as "looking down your nose at Ireland", but perhaps English isn't your first language, so I'll play nice.

It is abundantly clear what the UK wants. It wants closed borders to the EU. And open borders to the EU. It wants to leave the EU. It wants full access to the EU (single market). It wants UK citizens in the EU to retain full rights while at the same time remove rights from EU citizens in the UK.

Seriously, explain to me how you'd like to accomplish any of that. Seriously, let's invent your dream world in which the EU bends over and hands you the lube. How exactly would you want to have this done?

I can only see one solution. Dissolve the EU, have Ireland join the UK as their vassal state, re-create the EU with the UK having sole authority over everything. Burn Germany, because apparently WW2 wasn't enough. Call it "The British Empire" and then rejoice because all the glory and goals of the Brexit have been accomplished.

Is that your plan? Baldrick would've been proud of you. It's quite... cunning.

[Noradin]

Exactly, so as an EU members State Ireland will need assistance from the EU in coming to a workable solution alongside the UK, its in everyone's interests. It would be much more helpful than just slinging out 'UK has chosen to leave therefore it is up to the UK to solve it'.

The UK is not "everyone".

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I think others will see this for the special case it is. Other nations will see that the options the EU has suggested are too much for a sovereign nation to bear.

No, everyone sees that the UK does not know what it wants.
It is incapable. Incapable of making decisions. And incapable of giving it's word.
So essentially, the Uk demonstrates right now that it is incapable of entering any contract or treaty.

That sure will help them when they go looking for more trade deals with other nations.
We probably will need that hard border to keep out all the economic emmigrants from the UK soon.

[Rockyreg]

The UK can unilaterally decide what's going to happen to the UK side of the border. As can the EU. We don't need the UK's permission to close the border.

Never said you did, but if that joint agreement ever makes it to a legal document the the EU cannot just close the border either.

No, what we're saying is, you can leave the EU. Or you can stay in it. Or choose any intermediary state of being "half in" that we put out. But you will bear the consequences of each option. And yes, it is our part to determine how your participation looks like. Our house, our rules. You do not get to force your way in however you want. You do not get to dictate the EU how your access to the EU looks like. You will be able to express wishes and the EU will try to accomodate them as much as they can, mostly because of a sense of loyalty and brotherhood despite all. But ultimately, you do not get to bitch and whinge when the EU rejects your wishes, some or all of them. You will have to eventually accept that the EU is calling the shots here. That's been told to you for almost 2 years now. Complaining about it now won't help you.

The EU will get the better of it its only natural but it won't be the one way traffic you describe.

[Rockyreg]

Really? So illegal immigrants through an unsupervised border are not an issue? Let me guess, you expect the RoI to supervise them for you.

An EU citizen travelling to the UK will not be deemed an Illegal Immigrant unless they try to settle or gain employment, I expect visa-free travel would be available between the EU/UK. If an actual illegal immigrant got onto the Island of Ireland then there is every chance that they entered in the ROI, so yes they would be checking as they currently do as they are not part of Schengen.

[Elegiac]

Never said you did, but if that joint agreement ever makes it to a legal document the the EU cannot just close the border either.

"We left the EU so we have control of our borders, how DARE you try to control your own borders."

Man it's almost as if the entire Brexit philosophy is, you know, stupid.

[Slant]

Never said you did, but if that joint agreement ever makes it to a legal document the the EU cannot just close the border either.

The EU will get the better of it its only natural but it won't be the one way traffic you describe.

I never said it was one way traffic. But as it stands, it will be one sided. And the statement was rather ambiguous. Who does the actual closing of the border is a mere technicality, but to even speculate about that, the UK would have to reach an agreement. Just an outlook for you: Everytime the EU disagrees with the UK on trade conditions, they can just threaten to cancel the whole deal, including this ambiguous phrasing of the border dispute, thus falling back on the default state of borders between two nations/supranational entities: a closed border and thus putting the UK in a position where the GFA is breached. So you just went from a bad position to be negotiating from to an even worse one.

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An EU citizen travelling to the UK will not be deemed an Illegal Immigrant unless they try to settle or gain employment, I expect visa-free travel would be available between the EU/UK. If an actual illegal immigrant got onto the Island of Ireland then there is every chance that they entered in the ROI, so yes they would be checking as they currently do as they are not part of Schengen.

How are you checking illegal immigrants? Oh right, I forgot.. in the mind of Brexiteers every illegal immigrant has "illegal" stamped over his forehead. See, that's the problem with open borders in the real world, you are not checking anyone. You're not even manning the posts. There's nobody to oversee the proceedings. Thus, whether or not someone enters legally or illegally... there is no way for you to find out until they're long time in your country.

[Rockyreg]

You've done so well until now. Personal attacks? So basically you're done with your arguments? Great. I don't see how "25 nations are behind Ireland" comes across as "looking down your nose at Ireland", but perhaps English isn't your first language, so I'll play nice.

It is abundantly clear what the UK wants. It wants closed borders to the EU. And open borders to the EU. It wants to leave the EU. It wants full access to the EU (single market). It wants UK citizens in the EU to retain full rights while at the same time remove rights from EU citizens in the UK.

Seriously, explain to me how you'd like to accomplish any of that. Seriously, let's invent your dream world in which the EU bends over and hands you the lube. How exactly would you want to have this done?

I can only see one solution. Dissolve the EU, have Ireland join the UK as their vassal state, re-create the EU with the UK having sole authority over everything. Burn Germany, because apparently WW2 wasn't enough. Call it "The British Empire" and then rejoice because all the glory and goals of the Brexit have been accomplished.

Is that your plan? Baldrick would've been proud of you. It's quite... cunning.

Well if you can't see it then I can't help you. You basically said we bailed Ireland out so they will do what they are told.

Now you are projecting onto me. I have previously said that I personally would be more than happy with an EEA agreement, that may well be where we end up, we'll see.

[Slant]

Well if you can't see it then I can't help you. You basically said we bailed Ireland out so they will do what they are told.

Now you are projecting onto me. I have previously said that I personally would be more than happy with an EEA agreement, that may well be where we end up, we'll see.

If you enter the EEA, there won't be a problem. The border will remain open and this whole sub-debate will vanish with a *poof* into a cloud of smoke. You will have free movement of goods, services, people and capital, you will adhere to EU regulations, you will observe the external border of the EU as far as the UK is concerned, you will pay more into the EU budget than you are now and you won't have any say in the decisions made in the EU. And we will live happily ever after.

I hope you get what you want. I really do. This whole border dispute is silly.

Just because it's remotely interesting for you:

[Rockyreg]

I never said it was one way traffic. But as it stands, it will be one sided. And the statement was rather ambiguous. Who does the actual closing of the border is a mere technicality, but to even speculate about that, the UK would have to reach an agreement. Just an outlook for you: Everytime the EU disagrees with the UK on trade conditions, they can just threaten to cancel the whole deal, including this ambiguous phrasing of the border dispute, thus falling back on the default state of borders between two nations/supranational entities: a closed border and thus putting the UK in a position where the GFA is breached. So you just went from a bad position to be negotiating from to an even worse one.

But I thought they were putting this text into a legal agreement? The text as it currently stands prevents this situation from happening.

How are you checking illegal immigrants? Oh right, I forgot.. in the mind of Brexiteers every illegal immigrant has "illegal" stamped over his forehead. See, that's the problem with open borders in the real world, you are not checking anyone. You're not even manning the posts. There's nobody to oversee the proceedings. Thus, whether or not someone enters legally or illegally... there is no way for you to find out until they're long time in your country.

They will be checked exactly how they are currently checked now (on the mainland). The island of Ireland will be a special case (whether the DUP like it or not).

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"We left the EU so we have control of our borders, how DARE you try to control your own borders."

Man it's almost as if the entire Brexit philosophy is, you know, stupid.

Bit more nuanced than that.