Warchief Sylvanas, everyone.

[Minikin]

I suggest reading some quotes from tyrande fighting for that suramar and comparing them to what liandrin has to say. Also, her personal remarks to thalyssra were enough to show which faction suits nightborne better.

well of course. i totally agree there, the nightborne should and are joining the horde. it would make less sense than void elves (which is whack in itself) for them to join the alliance. my point is simply, yea shes cold to her and honestly doesnt like the highborne at all. But saying "the belfs actually cared to help" is totally wrong, because I can see that in game right at this very moment.

[Arrashi]

Nightborne indeed suits Horde. It also showed that they never changed since War of the Ancients.

You mean that they have actual civilization, rather than shitting outside, living in wall-less buildings, and serving as human lapdogs.

[Ash123]

well of course. i totally agree there, the nightborne should and are joining the horde. it would make less sense than void elves (which is whack in itself) for them to join the alliance. my point is simply, yea shes cold to her and honestly doesnt like the highborne at all. But saying "the belfs actually cared to help" is totally wrong, because I can see that in game right at this very moment.

Why "the belfs actually cared to help" is wrong? Liandrin clearly shown genuine sympathy and understanding towards Thalyssra throughout the campaign.

[Arrashi]

well of course. i totally agree there, the nightborne should and are joining the horde. it would make less sense than void elves (which is whack in itself) for them to join the alliance. my point is simply, yea shes cold to her and honestly doesnt like the highborne at all. But saying "the belfs actually cared to help" is totally wrong, because I can see that in game right at this very moment.

Again, read liandrin quotes during both quets chain and WQs. And compare them to what tyrande has to say.

[Minikin]

Why "the belfs actually cared to help" is wrong? Liandrin clearly shown genuine sympathy and understanding towards Thalyssra throughout the campaign.

do you mean caring emotionally or caring enough to show up to help? I can agree that the nightelves given their past with the highborne dont really like them at all. So their reason to show up to help the nightborne is more "gotta stop the legion" rather than "these were my people too".

But besides the emotional thing. They did actually show up. If its the first one, then I am in agreement fully. If its the 2nd one then that makes no sense to me as the front half of the Promenade has this huge ass treant and I am pretty sure the blood elves didnt bring it.

- - - Updated - - -

Again, read liandrin quotes during both quets chain and WQs. And compare them to what tyrande has to say.

So you are considering that emotional response. That doesnt mean the night elves basically left them as it is (dont get me wrong, tyrande is a wierd ass linear character for a 100000 year old civilization leader). but they also did show up.

Again, this is not about, oh i feel betrayed thalysra joined the horde, i helped them so much as alliance. Nah it makes sense. But you saying "the nightelfs dont care about the nightborne and are pieces of shit because of what they say to each other" would be equivalent to me saying "God only two blood elves on the vindicaar? The horde is just in league with their old legion masters. what pieces of shit!" But we both know that is not true.

Also on the note of leaders showing up. Theron is sadly misrepresented. They had this great chance of showing him some spotlight, but instead they sent Liandrin, when he is the leader.

[Ash123]

do you mean caring emotionally or caring enough to show up to help? I can agree that the nightelves given their past with the highborne dont really like them at all. So their reason to show up to help the nightborne is more "gotta stop the legion" rather than "these were my people too".

But besides the emotional thing. They did actually show up. If its the first one, then I am in agreement fully. If its the 2nd one then that makes no sense to me as the front half of the Promenade has this huge ass treant and I am pretty sure the blood elves didnt bring it.

You still do not understand.

Yes, both night elves and blood elves shown up to stop legion. They did not come because they like nightborne in the first place.

But what matters is their attitudes towards nightborne in the process. And this is all that matters post war.

For Thalyssra, she can clearly expect Tyrande to treat her like trash once the Nightborne is no longer needed, but she can expect blood elf to continue treat her as friends even they no longer need her to fight the legion.

[Friendlyimmolation]

This just in. Leaders hype up their faction.

[Arrashi]

No, I mean that they don't give a damn about anything other than themselves and will stab anyone from behind to achieve their own goals.

And the world you see right now exists because of these uncivilized, living in wall-less building people.

They also kinda summoned legion in a first place.

[Halyon]

That bolded part is what gets me too. I'm Horde and even I could tell she was parading around during Legion for her own ends. The whole Stormheim storyline, making us do all the important work for the Horde while she went off and did her own thing behind the scenes. While we were struggling to get our own souls back in Helheim, she was busy being selfish and making deals, leaving us behind in Helheim.

She's starting to become a bit delusional in thinking her leadership has been selfless and is it just me or does it annoy anyone else when Nathanos is such a smartass to the player? Like, literally makes me want to bury my weapon into his skull.

With you all the way man. On every word.

[Minikin]

You still do not understand.

Yes, both night elves and blood elves shown up to stop legion. They did not come because they like nightborne in the first place.

But what matters is their attitudes towards nightborne in the process. And this is all that matters post war.

For Thalyssra, she can clearly expect Tyrande to treat her like trash once the Nightborne is no longer needed, but she can expect blood elf to continue treat her as friends even they no longer need her to fight the legion.

i do get it. i was asking for clarification on which angle you are looking at it from. before i begin, ill say again, this is not about the nightborne joining the horde at all.

the point made was "the belfs actually cared to help". that is incorrect as a night elf army is present and did assist. yea as i said before i totally agree, they dont like the nightborne and their agenda was to stop the legion. the nightborne was just a side effect to the night elf. thats just Tyrande's bad writing.

that doesnot take away from the fact that there are treants and purple elves running around at the front of suramar. thus the statement is incorrect. we can argue all we want left right and center about the emotional consideration for the nightborne. but the fact is, the army is present and tyrande is there. they could have just as easily not sent anything. but we know thats not how this game works. and iam sure no one is disputing tyrande's badly written linear thinking.

[Minikin]

They also kinda summoned legion in a first place.

specifics matter. that was the highborne. and if anything the nightborne are closer to them than the night elves. At that point there was no elf divison (except the nazi caste system made by the highborne)

this is like saying, "forsaken are the scourge cuz they are undead and arthas lead them!"

[Ash123]

i do get it. i was asking for clarification on which angle you are looking at it from. before i begin, ill say again, this is not about the nightborne joining the horde at all.

the point made was "the belfs actually cared to help". that is incorrect as a night elf army is present and did assist. yea as i said before i totally agree, they dont like the nightborne and their agenda was to stop the legion. the nightborne was just a side effect to the night elf. thats just Tyrande's bad writing.

that doesnot take away from the fact that there are treants and purple elves running around at the front of suramar. thus the statement is incorrect. we can argue all we want left right and center about the emotional consideration for the nightborne. but the fact is, the army is present and tyrande is there. they could have just as easily not sent anything. but we know thats not how this game works. and iam sure no one is disputing tyrande's badly written linear thinking.

No one deny the Night elves did send help. The problem is they treat nightborne like trash during the campaign.

It is just like some other guys are assigned to help you finish a project. And in the end they all help in some way but you would end up with making friends with some but hating others.

The guys who treat you well, who could understand your position and need, (even if they are not there for you) tend to give you the impression that they actually care for you, which is not so far from the truth.

[Minikin]

No one deny the Night elves did send help. The problem is they treat nightborne like trash during the campaign.

It is just like some other guys are assigned to help you finish a project. And in the end they all help in some way but you would end up with making friends with some but hating others.

The guys who treat you well, who could understand your position and need, (even if they are not there for you) tend to give you the impression that they actually care for you, which is not so far from the truth.

I can agree with that fully.

[Katchii]

I'm not trying to take sides or anything but, to be fair, an Alliance leader did selflessly sacrifice himself to save his men. Meanwhile in the same battle, the Horde leadership's desire to save their own skins instead of sacrificing themselves like said Alliance leader caused the assault on the Tomb of Sargeras to immediately fall apart.

The Horde lost their warchief as a result of that battle as well, just not on the battlefield. Everyone on that battlefield, Horde and Alliance was selflessly fighting to defend their world/ people. Neither side was winning, both sides had to pull out. Alliance just happened to be pinned down by a giant fel-reaver on their way out and the Horde didn't.

The Horde lost just as much that day as the Alliance, watching the two cinematics combined shows it was a lost cause anyway and that the whole animosity between the Horde and Alliance afterward is caused by a lack of communication (which I find to be ridiculous, as working together would surely have resulted in them agreeing on a general retreat signal or some such) not some malicious intent by the Horde.

[Deleted]

"The Horde's selfless leadership in the war against the Legion has left our ranks depleted. Our enemies slaver at the thought of stealing what is ours. We will not let them."

ok, she has either:
clearly lost it,
or
she has become a great propagandist.

i lean more towards the second.
since she even dared to shout "for the horde" at the trailer.
you're not fooling anyone dear. especially the horde.

ME HORDE! ME STRONG! I SEE THING SO I TAKE THING! MINE!

Yeah why’d anyone ever not trust such rethorics. It’s like listening to China talk about peace during military parades and exercises. “Oh! We are all about the peace. This nuclear weapon? Peace. These new tanks and guns? Peace. That new island we built illegally? Peace.”

You’re not fooling anyone! You’re a powerhungry, desperate monster, Sylvanas! Genn took the Val’kyr from you, beings of light and purity that you sought to enslave after you made a pact with Helya.
Yes, let me remind you all that warchief Sylvanas has made a freaking pact with evil itself.

Just give the Horde a Tauren warchief already. Maybe they can actually get back to restoring their honor then. Maybe they can truly be the Horde again and not just some means to an end of a banshee that’s afraid of dying.

[Alex86el]

ME HORDE! ME STRONG! I SEE THING SO I TAKE THING! MINE!

Exactly, the Orcish culture is that of "the law of the jungle".
Mercy, dialogue, respect, are usually seen as weakness.
You want? You stronger? You take. Is fair.
It is not "wrong", its their culture.
Like the Mongols, the Ottomans, the Vikings, and so many more.

____

PS: Is it seriously forbidden to write the name Go**bels?
I agree, we all hate nazis, but ARE YOU FREAKIN SERIOUS??? it is legit part of history, i did not use it for racial/political hate-speech.
Some people are just crazy man! Who the hell censored this?
Hey MMO-Champion, am i allowed to call Sylvanas a "she" ?? Or do you think i should be censored because i just assumed her gender??

Get serious Champ.

[Aucald]

Sylvanas is in the Horde embassy, whose central focus is on extending overtures of alliance and amity with previously neutral parties such as the Highmountain Tauren and the Nightborne - of course she's going to speak in partisan terms and glowingly of the Horde faction. Of course she's going to minimize (if not outright demonize) the Alliance. Anduin does much the same within the Alliance embassy, passively taking all credit for the Argus campaign and talking up the Alliance to the Void Elves and the Lightforged.

This isn't epic demagoguery going on - it's what anyone in an ambassadorial role for a given faction would do.

[therealbowser]

And what exactly happens with nightborne ? Them realising that nelves are pieces of shit while belves actually cared to help them ?

Tyrande says something to the extent that "Elune will decide the right path to take" after asking if the Nightborne leader would become the next Elisande.

Lady Liadrin then goes on and on about how terrible the night elves are, how they have also been judged by then, how the night elves sat in their forests and slept in their dens while the blood elves saved the world (funny, because I remember a different story during Warcraft III), etc.

If Blizzard actually believes these things are true, then this is laughable storywriting. If Blizzard is making Lady Liadrin a cunning negotiator taking advantage of a flaw in Tyrande's straightforward questions, then that's clever. It's nice to see clever characters in WoW games, they are pretty rare.

Also, Alleria gets portrayed to be an idiot, the Regent Lord calls Anduin a "child king", and they make it look like the blood elves are being noble by letting Alleria leave. All conveniently in front of the nightborne they are hoping to induct into the Horde, which of course they do, because the Alliance is portrayed as inept and callous.

The entire nightborne introductory scene is hilariously bad. I do recommend looking it up. It's riling people up for good reason.

[ello]

Tyrande says something to the extent that "Elune will decide the right path to take" after asking if the Nightborne leader would become the next Elisande.

Lady Liadrin then goes on and on about how terrible the night elves are, how they have also been judged by then, how the night elves sat in their forests and slept in their dens while the blood elves saved the world (funny, because I remember a different story during Warcraft III), etc.

If Blizzard actually believes these things are true, then this is laughable storywriting. If Blizzard is making Lady Liadrin a cunning negotiator taking advantage of a flaw in Tyrande's straightforward questions, then that's clever. It's nice to see clever characters in WoW games, they are pretty rare.

Liadrin doesn't have access to Wowpedia like the rest of us do. I'm fairly certain Liadrin is a younger character(she was just an apprentince during the second war), from her perspective her people, the high elves, fought off the legion in the form of the first orcish invasion, and then fought the legion again in the form of Arthas' Scourge , and the Night Elves were not present for either occassion. In fact they were literally sleeping in dens during those events(Night Elves did fight the legion in the thrid war, but that wasn't until later). There is also the whole Night Elves kicking out the Highborne after WOTA, and the Night Elf infiltrators in TBC, in all honesty it would be weird if Liadrin wasn't anti-Night Elf given what he knows.

I'm assuming the Blood Elves being scorned by Tyrande happened off screen, honestly doesn't feel out of character for Tyrande to do something like that, but we probably should've seen it.

Liadrin probably saw that Thalyssra had come to the same conclusion about the Night Elves that she did, so she played it up a bit. Is she wrong? Maybe, depends on your perspective. But i don't think she is being deceitful. It's a bit like how Genn went on about how the Horde "betrayed" the Alliance on Broken Shore. From his perspective it might be a reasonable, or at least understandable position, but only because he doesn't have the meta knowledge we do. Same story with Liadrin.

Also, Alleria gets portrayed to be an idiot,

I don't see it, sounds like the sunwell incident was an accident.

The entire nightborne introductory scene is hilariously bad. I do recommend looking it up. It's riling people up for good reason.

I don't really have a problem with the content itself(other than the Ashenvale line that is probably cut), at least not yet. The only issue I have is that is really has nothing to do with the Nightborne. A couple conversations between the Elves but the bulk of the questline is actually the Void Elf origin and the prelude to Alleria sneaking back in to take the Void Elves. I don't understand why that's relevant to the Nightborne story. I would've prefered if it was Liadrin + another Horde character(preferably Saurfang or Sylvanas) came and helped Suramar deal with some threat (perhaps Old Gods) that "clinched the deal" for Thalyssra and co.

[therealbowser]

Liadrin doesn't have access to Wowpedia like the rest of us do. I'm fairly certain Liadrin is a younger character(she was just an apprentince during the second war), from her perspective her people, the high elves, fought off the legion in the form of the first orcish invasion, and then fought the legion again in the form of Arthas' Scourge , and the Night Elves were not present for either occassion. In fact they were literally sleeping in dens during those events(Night Elves did fight the legion in the thrid war, but that wasn't until later). There is also the whole Night Elves kicking out the Highborne after WOTA, and the Night Elf infiltrators in TBC, in all honesty it would be weird if Liadrin wasn't anti-Night Elf given what he knows.

Please don't try to justify Liadrin's actions here. You don't have to. She did what was best for her people and I actually admire her diplomatic cunning. I'd rather her be portrayed that way, than be portrayed as too stupid/naive to know any better. If she is referring to fighting off the Horde as "saving the world", then it would be kind of strange to suggest they join the same orcs they "saved the world from", so I am hoping at the very least they weren't referring to that.

I'm assuming the Blood Elves being scorned by Tyrande happened off screen, honestly doesn't feel out of character for Tyrande to do something like that, but we probably should've seen it.

Sure, Tyrande has scorned the blood elves before. You can find camps of night elves harassing them in Ghostlands. But it's not entirely unjustified given that they joined the Horde and were supposedly siphoning fel magic, Naaru energy, and other naughty things. Tyrande can be abrasive, but at the same time she still fought for the nightborne people -- even if she had ulterior motives. The nightborne throwing away diplomatic ties over something as vague as what Tyrande did is, well... comical, really.

No, what pushed them over was Liadrin portraying them to be worse than they were, and Alleria being portrayed as careless and uncaring as a face of the Alliance.

Liadrin probably saw that Thalyssra had come to the same conclusion about the Night Elves that she did, so she played it up a bit. Is she wrong? Maybe, depends on your perspective. But i don't think she is being deceitful. It's a bit like how Genn went on about how the Horde "betrayed" the Alliance on Broken Shore. From his perspective it might be a reasonable, or at least understandable position, but only because he doesn't have the meta knowledge we do. Same story with Liadrin.

Um, the Horde did betray the Alliance at the Broken Shore. They abandoned the Alliance and caused their high king to die because they broke ranks and fled the battle. Now you can argue that it was justified, but they did exactly what Genn said they did -- they abandoned the Alliance to die, and the Alliance by far had the bigger enemies to face down there.

The reason Genn was so angry about it, was because he essentially agreed to work alongside the Horde despite how much he despised and distrusted Sylvanas, because Varian convinced him to do so. Genn saw this coming, guess we should have listened to him to begin with.

As for Liadrin, if she is being diplomatic, then it's clever and I like it. My issue is that I have a sinking suspicion that Blizzard is trying to make Liadrin say these things as if they are true, which is either portraying her as an idiot, or they don't know their own lore. I am being optimistic and assuming it's just diplomacy.

I don't see it, sounds like the sunwell incident was an accident.

Alleria Windrunner: The Sunwell has changed... but its beauty remains. It has been so long.
Lor'themar Theron: Stay back!
Lor'themar Theron: What is happening?
Lor'themar Theron: This is why I demanded that Umbric and his radicals be exiled. Anyone who treats with the Void is a danger to the Sunwell!
Alleria Windrunner: I did not intend for my presence to...
Lor'themar Theron: Enough! We need to cleanse this corruption before the well is lost!
First Arcanist Thalyssra: Silgryn! Valtrois! Aid the regent lord!

For added lulz, she is also called to be a sabateur by Rommath who really despised her from the beginning.

Grand Magister Rommath: Guards! Seize this saboteur.
Alleria Windrunner: I will not be taken prisoner in my own homeland.
Lor'themar Theron: Enough! You will leave at once, Alleria. Accident or no, your presence poses a danger to Quel'Thalas. Go back to Stormwind. Silvermoon is no longer your home.

You're not wrong, it is an accident. Alleria screwed up, and is portrayed to be careless and foolish, which are defining traits of the Alliance in this particular questline. She didn't do it on purpose, obviously, no one believes that (except perhaps Rommath, but more likely he's just trying to find a reason to keep her from returning to the Alliance).

I don't really have a problem with the content itself(other than the Ashenvale line that is probably cut), at least not yet. The only issue I have is that is really has nothing to do with the Nightborne. A couple conversations between the Elves but the bulk of the questline is actually the Void Elf origin and the prelude to Alleria sneaking back in to take the Void Elves. I don't understand why that's relevant to the Nightborne story. I would've prefered if it was Liadrin + another Horde character(preferably Saurfang or Sylvanas) came and helped Suramar deal with some threat (perhaps Old Gods) that "clinched the deal" for Thalyssra and co.

I have no issue with the quest chain myself except that Alleria is treated like a fool, and portrayed as naive. "oops, sorry guys, I didn't mean to nearly destroy your holy source of power with my tainted void energy." Please note that Alleria requests to see the Sunwell before she leaves. I would have liked if Alleria was treated with more dignity given that she is -- was, at least -- a hero to them.

I only have an issue with the rest of the dialogue if Blizzard actually thinks what Liadrin said happened, actually happened. And where's an excerpt of that if anyone is curious:

First Arcanist Thalyssra: Greetings, Lady Liadrin, $p. Welcome back to Suramar. I am pleased to receive you under more pleasant circumstances.
Lady Liadrin: It is good to see your city free, First Arcanist.
First Arcanist Thalyssra: For that, we owe you both a great debt. You proved instrumental to our cause.
Lady Liadrin: The Horde was proud to fight by your side against the Burning Legion, my lady.
First Arcanist Thalyssra: I must admit, when I first learned of the Horde, I was skeptical that we would share common ground.
First Arcanist Thalyssra: I thought our kin from Kalimdor would make obvious allies. But their arrogance and mistrust soon proved otherwise.
Tyrande: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won't betray us and become the next Elisande... the next Azshara?
First Arcanist Thalyssra: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande's oppression.
Tyrande: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that... we shall see where Elune's wisdom guides us.
First Arcanist Thalyssra: It would seem "Elune's wisdom" guided her away from the bond we once shared. So be it.
Lady Liadrin: The sin'dorei are also scorned by Tyrande and her prideful lot. Yet for many ages her people slept in dens or hid in trees while my people fought to save this world.
First Arcanist Thalyssra: The Alliance feels too walled off... too cloistered. My people will never endure such stagnation again.
First Arcanist Thalyssra: That is why I am grateful for your invitation to Silvermoon. I would like to inquire whether there could be a place for the nightborne in your Horde.
Lady Liadrin: I am sure the regent lord will be pleased to learn of your interest. Are you ready to depart?
First Arcanist Thalyssra: It would be an honor, Lady Liadrin. Oculeth has the coordinates to your capital. I will gather Silgryn and Valtrois, and meet you in Silvermoon.

... and frankly, Tyrande is being portrayed as extremely undiplomatic in this circumstance as well. The comment that they were going to join the night elves originally is just icing on the cake. Now Tyrande is famous for being brash but at the same time I wouldn't expect her to completely throw away an opportunity like this and risk severing ties on a whim. In this sense, she too, to a lesser extent, is portrayed as an idiot. And given that this was already an issue in Mists of Pandaria, you'd think that surely Blizzard would know better by now.

At any rate, I am using this page for my information if anyone else is curious about all of the context here:

http://www.wowhead.com/news=277523/n...-text-spoilers