The REAL reason we want Vanilla (in my opinion!)

[Kyanion]

The only line I can agree with is your last one. Let's be realistic.

Here are the facts. We can say you're wrong based on our current experiences on Private Servers. You, on the other hand, only have your fragmented memories of Vanilla to go off of. So how about you take a fucking seat, and quit spouting out shit you only half-way remember correctly?

Wow aren't you the one that said, and I quote: "See the idiocy of your post now? With one sentence I was able in invalidate everything you just said, merely because you decided to get mad and try to make it personal. Learn from your stupidity." Take a fucking seat? Really? You tried that one?

LOL if you think a PS is giving an authentic Vanilla experience you are nutters. It is giving an experience that is already tainted due to the glut of information available. Everything is known, why do you think the classes people pick to play are mostly skewed to warriors/rogues? Private servers function to warp how people viewed Vanilla from 13 years ago. Sure people that played 12-13 years ago will have fragmented memories and remember things incorrectly but by and large they get many parts of it right in talking about how things were.

PS provide a Vanilla-Like experience I term Vanilla-Lite. That's all it is. Close to Vanilla sure but it isn't Vanilla so don't try and project what happens on a 1.12 locked server to how Vanilla was for many people 11-13 years ago.

[Nomads]

Wow aren't you the one that said, and I quote: "See the idiocy of your post now? With one sentence I was able in invalidate everything you just said, merely because you decided to get mad and try to make it personal. Learn from your stupidity." Take a fucking seat? Really? You tried that one?

LOL if you think a PS is giving an authentic Vanilla experience you are nutters. It is giving an experience that is already tainted due to the glut of information available. Everything is known, why do you think the classes people pick to play are mostly skewed to warriors/rogues? Private servers function to warp how people viewed Vanilla from 13 years ago. Sure people that played 12-13 years ago will have fragmented memories and remember things incorrectly but by and large they get many parts of it right in talking about how things were.

PS provide a Vanilla-Like experience I term Vanilla-Lite. That's all it is. Close to Vanilla sure but it isn't Vanilla so don't try and project what happens on a 1.12 locked server to how Vanilla was for many people 11-13 years ago.

I honestly cant tell if youre trolling or actually cant follow a train of thought well enough to stay on topic. No one said private servers are authentic vanilla, we said they are what Classic Is going to be like.

Now see how your whole post was pointless because you tried to make your point based on something you didnt understand?

[Kyanion]

I honestly cant tell if youre trolling or actually cant follow a train of thought well enough to stay on topic. No one said private servers are authentic vanilla, we said they are what Classic Is going to be like.

Now see how your whole post was pointless because you tried to make your point based on something you didnt understand?

Yup, about what I expected when I saw your reply. Yeahhhh you OBVIOUSLY haven't been paying attention to this and other threads. People have been using PS as authentic Vanilla experience/knowledge all over the fucking place. And if you think that is what Classic is going to be like once current retail players decide to check it out...well prepare to be surprised.

Anyways, you are kind of wasting my time if you won't have a discussion but try and deflect and act like a wounded party when anyone replies to you. So don't bother replying further.

[Faenskap]

In terms of an MMORPG, it was better because:

• Leveling felt like an acomplishment that took time to achieve; the game didn't "start" at max level.
• The world felt alive and adventurous; going into Stonetalon Mountains for the first time, a contested zone, was exciting for me.
• Loot was not handed out like candy. An epic felt epic. Even the dungeon sets had a certain awe to them.
• Reward for effort. Today, there really is no incentive to play more than at a casual level other than maybe a mythic-specific mount, but vanilla had real acomplishments, like Rank 14, race to ring the AQ gong, hard-to-attain legendaries, etc.
• A sense of community and server pride. No amalgamation of servers, no LFD/LFR. People actually engaged with each other.
• Unique classes. Every class had their place, their strengths and weaknesses. It wasn't badly balanced, it was good class design. A paladin offered great heals and the best buffs in the game at the cost of DPS. Rogues were good DPS at the cost of utility.

Just to name a few. You can agree or disagree with the points, but an argument can definitely be made for the strength of vanilla wow.

With your first point, I do agree. I don't know what happened - if it was players' or Blizzard's desire, but unless you're max level, you're... nothing. You can't prepare your character with currency when your character isn't max level, for instance, which bothers me.

Rewards for effort aren't a bad addition, and they're still in the game as far as I'm concerned, but they shouldn't cause you to fuck up your RL to obtain them. Keep in mind I didn't play in Vanilla, but I've heard stories of people quitting their jobs to attempt to get Rank 14. That is not healthy. I also feel that Vanilla was very excluding, and you had to be a part of a group which would help members to obtain Rank 14. If I came along, I highly doubt Bob, Dan and Rob would help me towards Rank 14, and then I'd be without a chance even if I did have the time and the health to sit for 14+ hours without getting trombosis. Maybe I'm analysing the information wrong but I am left with a feeling that an entire server would help one or a select few to rise (think Kungen), and the majority is left in the shadow. This is also an aspect I don't agree with

Legendaries you work towards are neat, like Fangs of the Father. I didn't have a guild to back me up, but I got them. I made 10m DS pugs for what felt like an eternity. I understand you worked towards Vanilla legendaries too but to my knowledge you had to rely on lucky drops as well. Like Thunderfury. Got one binding, never the other.

I like LFD and LFR, and it's a great tool for people on low populated servers. I remember years ago I made a character on a low pop server. "/who Stormwind" at 5.00 PM or something. 5 people. Though these days people don't talk a lot, I agree. No one says "hello" when you enter a dungeon and it's like you play with bots. Or "brb door", no one but me replies. I've even had people follow and the afk tag appear (Gnomeregan so kind of understandable) and no one gives a shit. Wtf. My server - Kazzak EU - is a cesspool and I am not proud to be a Kazzakian

I don't agree with your point on classes because people should be able to play the spec they want without being told "no, this class is only for tanking/healing"

[ablock87]

Bullet point three is also absolutely bullshit. There are relevant rewards for players that want to put for the relevant effort, but there are also modes of playing the game that allow for players that don't want that kind of end game gameplay to still enjoy the game. I will never understand why purists think limitations on other players=good gameplay. Just stop..

You completely misunderstood what I said. I'm not talking about "relevant rewards." I'm talking about epics feeling epic. Seeing someone in full dungeon blues was awesome. Seeing someone with 1-2 epics was mind blowing. That feeling is gone. Epics are the "common" quality today (I would argue way back in wotlk, as well, hell, probably even tbc). I didn't say anything about limitations, you did. And "just stop" is not an argument.

To address what you said earlier, you can't really use the "bullet one is opinion" argument (no shit, all arguments based on "funness" of games are) but then turn around and give...an opinion...on my 2nd point.

The notion that vanilla "-was not a good game-" is so laughable that you should be barred from posting again. Really, the most successful MMORPG in the history of the world wasn't a good game? Get real. Then again, you're the same guy that calls people 13 year olds when they post something you don't like, so I shouldn't be surprised by your demeanor.

The game doesn't 'start' at max level now. The boost we're give--

I'm not talking about boosts. Why do people argue just to argue without actually reading & thinking about anything????

I'll post what I posted earlier. When I say "the game starts at max level," I mean the real content begins once you've obtained the max level. Everything is catered to the max-level player; World quests, mythic+ dungeons, continuing your artifact quest line. People rush to max level because A) that's where the content is and B) the leveling process right now is dull and lifeless (hence the ptr changes to zone scaling will hopefully try to alleviate that a bit.)

1-100 is more of a chore than it is a fun experience (unless you find sitting in a capital city and chain queuing dungeons to level as fast as possible fun). I'm arguing that, in vanilla, the gameplay wasn't revolved around level 60 content. People were quite happy with the game in their 20's, 30's, 40's, etc. Hell, people were excited for doing Razorfen Downs to upgrade their warrior's mail helm to plate.

[Nomads]

No they dont read. They take the first few words and make their own conclusions of what you say. It's all retail WoW has left them capable of. Their reading comprehension and critical thinking skills are non existant.

[Raelbo]

I was just thinking - all (well... a lot!) of the opinions on how Vanilla was a worse in the gaming aspect are...actually true.

I think what we all miss is not THE Vanilla. It's the vanilla experience - and it has nothing to do with rose tinted glasses.

We can all agree that we are living in different times than those 13 years ago. A lot of things got...organized(!). Back then - the game was like a background to our imagination. A lot of the rules were tough, a lot meant simply grinding but we still enjoyed it. I remember people just having fun walking around the zones - with no real reason just to PVP or mine or whatever.

Totally agree with all of this 100%

A lot changed with the introduction of achievements - and that is applicable to whole gaming industry. Suddenly we started competing with each other. Now I know it happened in the past but not on such a big scale. Now everybody has a goal, and the game became...well just a set with things to "check".

And then somehow you lose the plot...

The biggest thing that changed was us, the players. We were changed by the experience of playing WoW. That is why the game had to change, to adapt to the changes in us.

If WoW had remained static it would have died a long, long time ago. Not because it was a bad game back then, but because it was designed for a different audience, an audience who hadn't experience 13 years of WoW. The WoW we have today is a much better game, not only technically, but especially when it comes to catering to an audience who has been there and got the proverbial T-shirt already.

This phenomenon is true of just about everything in life. As human beings we are constantly learning and adapting and soaking in our experiences and in response we grow, adapt, change. The answer isn't to try go back to how things were, but to figure out how the people we have become can continue to enjoy the game in spite of our past experiences in it.


PS: I am not trying to say that no one will enjoy the Classic experience, I think there is definitely merit in it, and some people will really have a blast, but I do think it's a bit naive to believe that we'll be have the same experience again. And if that's what some people are hoping for, I think they're going to be in for a massive disappointment.

[Nomads]

PS: I am not trying to say that no one will enjoy the Classic experience, I think there is definitely merit in it, and some people will really have a blast, but I do think it's a bit naive to believe that we'll be have the same experience again. And if that's what some people are hoping for, I think they're going to be in for a massive disappointment.

I largely disagree because I rolled on a private server this month and I am largely reliving my Classic experience. The only difference is that I have a better understanding of game mechanics, so I'm actually enjoying it more

[Raelbo]

In terms of an MMORPG, it was better because:

• Leveling felt like an acomplishment that took time to achieve; the game didn't "start" at max level.
• The world felt alive and adventurous; going into Stonetalon Mountains for the first time, a contested zone, was exciting for me.
• Loot was not handed out like candy. An epic felt epic. Even the dungeon sets had a certain awe to them.
• Reward for effort. Today, there really is no incentive to play more than at a casual level other than maybe a mythic-specific mount, but vanilla had real acomplishments, like Rank 14, race to ring the AQ gong, hard-to-attain legendaries, etc.
• A sense of community and server pride. No amalgamation of servers, no LFD/LFR. People actually engaged with each other.
• Unique classes. Every class had their place, their strengths and weaknesses. It wasn't badly balanced, it was good class design. A paladin offered great heals and the best buffs in the game at the cost of DPS. Rogues were good DPS at the cost of utility.

Just to name a few. You can agree or disagree with the points, but an argument can definitely be made for the strength of vanilla wow.

All these points speak to my previous post. Your list is exactly what you'd want from a game you're new to, not a game you've been playing for 5 or 10 or 13 years.

For example: "Leveling felt like an acomplishment that took time to achieve; the game didn't "start" at max level."

Leveling the first time is always going to feel like a bigger accomplishment than doing it the second or third, or 20th time. For most people by the time you've levelled two or three toons, there is little interest in taking the time and effort to repeat the process.

Here's a great analogy: Think of learning to read your first words. What an amazing experience: S-e-e N-i-p R-u-n! R-u-n N-i-p R-u-n! But really do you still want to be going through the motions of spelling out words to form a rudimentary sentence and then work your way up through the levels of reading competence every time you want to read a new book? No, of course not. It felt epic the first time because it was a new experience. But now that you know how to read, and can do so competently, and have experienced reading some fantastic literature (I would hope!) your real interest in finding new and interesting books written by skilled authors for audiences capable of reading them, not in learning to read all over again.

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I largely disagree because I rolled on a private server this month and I am largely reliving my Classic experience. The only difference is that I have a better understanding of game mechanics, so I'm actually enjoying it more

Well you never really addressed what I am saying, so I am not sure how you can claim to disagree.

As I said, I fully believe that the Classic experience can be enjoyable, but that doesn't mean it's the same experience. You yourself even agree here that you are enjoying it more (which proves that the experience is not the same) because you understand the game better. Furthermore you cannot say how you'll feel about doing the same thing a year (let alone 13) from now.

As an example, after I had spent more than 6 months levelling my first toon, exploring every zone and doing every quest, when I rolled my first alt I tried to repeat that process, but it just wasn't the same. So I levelled that alt a lot faster, and so on. Now, maybe, 10 years later, the idea of going back and doing that same process again might hold some appeal because it has been a long time, but that doesn't mean that the catch up levelling process was a bad idea.

[ablock87]

All these points speak to my previous post. Your list is exactly what you'd want from a game you're new to, not a game you've been playing for 5 or 10 or 13 years.

For example: "Leveling felt like an acomplishment that took time to achieve; the game didn't "start" at max level."

Leveling the first time is always going to feel like a bigger accomplishment than doing it the second or third, or 20th time. For most people by the time you've levelled two or three toons, there is little interest in taking the time and effort to repeat the process.

Here's a great analogy: Think of learning to read your first words. What an amazing experience: S-e-e N-i-p R-u-n! R-u-n N-i-p R-u-n! But really do you still want to be going through the motions of spelling out words to form a rudimentary sentence and then work your way up through the levels of reading competence every time you want to read a new book? No, of course not. It felt epic the first time because it was a new experience. But now that you know how to read, and can do so competently, and have experienced reading some fantastic literature (I would hope!) your real interest in finding new and interesting books written by skilled authors for audiences capable of reading them, not in learning to read all over again.

This reads an awful lot like "You think you do, but you don't."

No, I really do, which is why Blizzard finally caved and is offering us the servers.

[Deleted]

A lot changed with the introduction of achievements - and that is applicable to whole gaming industry. Suddenly we started competing with each other. Now I know it happened in the past but not on such a big scale. Now everybody has a goal, and the game became...well just a set with things to "check".

What do you think?

You have such a game right now - it's called Guild Wars 2. Surprise, surprise - not many people play it.
You are right - a lot have hanged in the last 13 years. Players are not the same inexperienced and amazed kids anymore, most of which have never seen an MMO before. Today, most people have already tried at least 2-3 MMOs and you can hardly impress them with whatever.
So no, wandering around zones, simply enjoying yourself is not a thing for almost anyone these days.
Neither is forceful socialization, but that's another story.

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• A sense of community and server pride. No amalgamation of servers, no LFD/LFR. People actually engaged with each other.

I predict this specific aspect of Vanilla will fail miserably. Not long after launch, some sort of LFG tool will be added to the Classic servers.
It will become obvious that players are no longer willing to commit hours on end in the game building relationships with other players, or seek to establish friendships in-game in general.
That place was taken by social media.
Ever since facebook and twitter became mainstream, MMOs are no longer environment for socialization, but rather for competition and skill proving grounds.

[Nomads]

You have such a game right now - it's called Guild Wars 2. Surprise, surprise - not many people play it.
You are right - a lot have hanged in the last 13 years. Players are not the same inexperienced and amazed kids anymore, most of which have never seen an MMO before. Today, most people have already tried at least 2-3 MMOs and you can hardly impress them with whatever.
So no, wandering around zones, simply enjoying yourself is not a thing for almost anyone these days.
Neither is forceful socialization, but that's another story.

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I predict this specific aspect of Vanilla will fail miserably. Not long after launch, some sort of LFG tool will be added to the Classic servers.
It will become obvious that players are no longer willing to commit hours on end in the game building relationships with other players, or seek to establish friendships in-game in general.
That place was taken by social media.
Ever since facebook and twitter became mainstream, MMOs are no longer environment for socialization, but rather for competition and skill proving grounds.

Its not failing on private servers. If anything people are so hungry for it that they group up more. This is the main difference between Classic fans and you people who come into the forum to try to shit on it. We actually are already playing the game, so we know what we're talking about. You're just speaking from half forgotten experiences from 10 years ago.

Everything you just wrote is 100% ridiculous in light of what is going on on the private servers at this very moment.

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As an example, after I had spent more than 6 months levelling my first toon, exploring every zone and doing every quest, when I rolled my first alt I tried to repeat that process, but it just wasn't the same. So I levelled that alt a lot faster, and so on. Now, maybe, 10 years later, the idea of going back and doing that same process again might hold some appeal because it has been a long time, but that doesn't mean that the catch up levelling process was a bad idea.

Vanilla WoW has more than enough content to follow different questing paths for at least a few alts. For example 1 character can do the human path of Elwynn, Westfall, Redridge, Duskwood. Another can follow the dwarven path of Dun Morogh, Loch Modan, Wetlands. And another can follow the NE path of Teldrassil, Darkshore, Ashenvale. At the time of Vanilla people ran completely different dungeons because they didn't know about all of them. A lot of NE didn't run Deadmines, but did a lot of BFD. I distinctly remember, on one character I dinged 60 in EPL, another in Winterspring, and another in Silithus. Doing completely different zones 55-60.

Yes, there is some crossover at some points, such as STV which is such a big zone with so many quests, that the whole server usually passes through there at some point. BUT even now, on the private server I play on, I have found and completed quests in STV that I NEVER did before in 3 years of Vanilla play.

This isn't even counting Horde content which you can do too if one faction gets boring.

[Splenda]

Only time I'ma say it- guys please do not discuss private servers. That's not the point here. And is also against our rules.

[bash the fash]

Yeah, you did want 'the vanilla experience'. But you can't re-experience something for the first time. There's not going to be some fun exciting exploration of the world the way there was 13 years ago, unless you never played the game pre-Cata. There's nothing to discover.

'It's all been done.'

[Nomads]

Yeah, you did want 'the vanilla experience'. But you can't re-experience something for the first time. There's not going to be some fun exciting exploration of the world the way there was 13 years ago, unless you never played the game pre-Cata. There's nothing to discover.

'It's all been done.'

Wrong. Read the many replies which already refute this.

[pateuvasiliu]

Define better game, because, all I can remember from Vanilla are bad class balance, horrible gearing, simplistic bosses and so on...

Why should there be class balance? Every class had a role and a spec for PvE and PvP.

Bosses were ''simplistic'' but they required 40 people working in cohesion. Any moron can follow a script from Legion.

[deniter]

The reason is that vanilla was a better game, at least more fun. Could be TBC or Wrath even, its from there on that things went downhill.

Amen for that.

[Kyanion]

Any moron can follow a script from Legion.

Right that is because every boss in Legion just falls over when someone glances at it. Everyone does mythic and the game is soooooo easy omgz!

Orrrr you can be honest and admit Vanilla raid bosses were also scripted and their script was a lot lighter on lines to say and actions to take.

[taliey]

We want what we can't have.

[pateuvasiliu]

Right that is because every boss in Legion just falls over when someone glances at it. Everyone does mythic and the game is soooooo easy omgz!

Orrrr you can be honest and admit Vanilla raid bosses were also scripted and their script was a lot lighter on lines to say and actions to take.

It's not about actions, it's about preparation. Learning a script, no matter how complex, is infinitely easier than organising 40 people to have the proper gear, consumables and tactics.