Warchief Sylvanas, everyone.

[Stormbornsham]

"The Horde's selfless leadership in the war against the Legion has left our ranks depleted. Our enemies slaver at the thought of stealing what is ours. We will not let them."

ok, she has either:
clearly lost it,
or
she has become a great propagandist.

i lean more towards the second.
since she even dared to shout "for the horde" at the trailer.
you're not fooling anyone dear. especially the horde.

Why some people hate her? She is bad ass af, she has the guts to lead the horde and fight the alliance. Why in the hell can you hate her? Unless you are ally...

[therealbowser]

The funny part is that she is calling the Night Elves useless in front of someone who didn't care a bit about anything for 10 thousand years and yet she wants to have them as allies. And I don't understand Liadrin hating the Night Elves. If they were Humans it was understandable but Tyrande never did anything to the Blood Elves. She even helped them back in W3 at the risk of her own life.
The entire scenario was written horribly.

I totally forgot about that. The night elves did come to Lordaeron in Warcraft III and greeted the blood elves -- who were then led by Kael'thas -- as friends. And she nearly died defending them. Just extra irony, I guess. Tyrande's character has not really made sense for a while now.

Without a doubt though, the scenario is written horribly. There are some things that can be excused as good diplomacy, but Tyrande being incredibly brash and foolish and giving Liadrin the opportunity to exaggerate things was ridiculous to begin with. And everything involving Alleria was an absolute joke.

I like that the nightborne are joining the Horde, but this scenario focuses on a problem the Alliance has been upset about since Cataclysm. They are tired of being portrayed as idiots in Horde quests. I guess some things never change, though, especially with Tyrande acting pointlessly arrogant to the point of being out of character yet again.

[Aleksej89]

Sylvanas lacks an interesting goal or cause.
Since wotlk sylv is just avoiding death.
It is very boring and lame.

Garrosh was at least a nazi hipocrite with daddy issues that wanted global genocide and used children as hostages.
Sylvanas has no goal aside from not dying.
Blizz needs to either give sylv a proper purpose or kill her off.

[ello]

Please don't try to justify Liadrin's actions here. You don't have to. She did what was best for her people and I actually admire her diplomatic cunning. I'd rather her be portrayed that way, than be portrayed as too stupid/naive to know any better. If she is referring to fighting off the Horde as "saving the world", then it would be kind of strange to suggest they join the same orcs they "saved the world from", so I am hoping at the very least they weren't referring to that.

The don't view them as the same Orcs. They view them as the "Old Horde", not Thrall's Horde.

But that aside, fair enough. I mean we can't really know what's going on inside Liadrin's head unless they put her in a book. She was once a fairly ruthless leader so your interpretation is fair, I'll just leave it at that.

Sure, Tyrande has scorned the blood elves before. You can find camps of night elves harassing them in Ghostlands. But it's not entirely unjustified given that they joined the Horde and were supposedly siphoning fel magic, Naaru energy, and other naughty things. Tyrande can be abrasive, but at the same time she still fought for the nightborne people -- even if she had ulterior motives. The nightborne throwing away diplomatic ties over something as vague as what Tyrande did is, well... comical, really.

From the Night Elf POV, it's justified. From the Liadrin's view it's getting kicked while you're already down.

No, what pushed them over was Liadrin portraying them to be worse than they were, and Alleria being portrayed as careless and uncaring as a face of the Alliance.

I don't think so honestly. It sounds like Thalyssra was already set on joining the Horde before they were even in Silvermoon.

Um, the Horde did betray the Alliance at the Broken Shore. They abandoned the Alliance and caused their high king to die because they broke ranks and fled the battle. Now you can argue that it was justified, but they did exactly what Genn said they did -- they abandoned the Alliance to die, and the Alliance by far had the bigger enemies to face down there.

The reason Genn was so angry about it, was because he essentially agreed to work alongside the Horde despite how much he despised and distrusted Sylvanas, because Varian convinced him to do so. Genn saw this coming, guess we should have listened to him to begin with.

Betray is a strong word because it implied intention to sabotage, that's not what happened on Broken Shore.

Nobody with meta knoweldge, aka access to youtube, would ever blame the Horde for what they did on the Broken Shore... Sylvanas was literally holding the dying Warchief in her arms while he gave her an order to retreat, all the while the rest of the Horde were limping away.

I have no issue with the quest chain myself except that Alleria is treated like a fool, and portrayed as naive. "oops, sorry guys, I didn't mean to nearly destroy your holy source of power with my tainted void energy." Please note that Alleria requests to see the Sunwell before she leaves. I would have liked if Alleria was treated with more dignity given that she is -- was, at least -- a hero to them.

Well, she is taking the opposite side on the onset of a war.

But Lor'themar still lets her see the sunwell, still calls her a hero of Silvermoon's past etc.

... and frankly, Tyrande is being portrayed as extremely undiplomatic in this circumstance as well. The comment that they were going to join the night elves originally is just icing on the cake. Now Tyrande is famous for being brash but at the same time I wouldn't expect her to completely throw away an opportunity like this and risk severing ties on a whim. In this sense, she too, to a lesser extent, is portrayed as an idiot. And given that this was already an issue in Mists of Pandaria, you'd think that surely Blizzard would know better by now.

Given the circumstances I don't blame Tyrande for being weary of the Nightborne, she has always looked down on arcane users anyways(she was against allowing the Highborne back into Night Elf society before Malfurion convinced her iirc).

I don't know, Tyrande's character is weird these days.

[Magnagarde]

All of Azeroth is indebted to the currently Alliance-alligned night elves for saving the world numerous times. Blood elves have been busy having fel adventures in Outland and lamenting about their fates, whereas night elves buckled up each time problems happened and faced them. While they were lamenting, the night elves - together with Jaina's forces and Thrall's - were busy saving the world. After that, the blood elves were busy desecrating holy places, draining living beings or tapping into a Naaru.

People love to give characters a bad time simply because they're not PC enough for their taste and accepting anyone and forgiving everything. Tyrande's character had all the reason she needed to look down on the nightborne, considering they first ran and hid from a war that was theirs too and then later on gave the Burning Legion a hand on the Broken Isles.

At least they'll - sadly - fit right into the Horde when it comes to the running away from a war that was theirs too.

[ManiaCCC]

Well, to be honest, she is right.

[therealbowser]

I don't think so honestly. It sounds like Thalyssra was already set on joining the Horde before they were even in Silvermoon.

It isn't implied to be the case.

First Arcanist Thalyssra: I must admit, when I first learned of the Horde, I was skeptical that we would share common ground.
First Arcanist Thalyssra: I thought our kin from Kalimdor would make obvious allies. But their arrogance and mistrust soon proved otherwise.

Well, she is taking the opposite side on the onset of a war.

But Lor'themar still lets her see the sunwell, still calls her a hero of Silvermoon's past etc.

It isn't that she's disrespected, though some choice words are made.

Alleria Windrunner: The honor is mine, First Arcanist. I do not mean to intrude upon your visit. Perhaps I should return another time.
Lor'themar Theron: Nonsense. Whatever you came to say, you may say in front of our guests.
Alleria Windrunner: As you wish. I come bearing an offer from High King Anduin Wr--
Lor'themar Theron: I had hoped your visit was motivated by a love for Silvermoon. Instead, you come at the behest of the Alliance's boy-king. How disappointing.
Alleria Windrunner: Cutting words, Lor'themar. Are they yours, I wonder, or has the dutiful ranger I knew become the mouthpiece of your warchief?
Lor'themar Theron: You doubt my words, yet how can we trust your own? Do you deny that the lords of the Void whisper to you? Did you not surrender yourself to the shadows on Argus?
Alleria Windrunner: I seems the offer I bring has been anticipated... and spurned. Very well. But before I leave, I have one request.
Alleria Windrunner: It has been a thousand years since I set eyes upon the Sunwell. May I visit it once again?

To be fair, it's likely he's acting this way intentionally in front of the nightborne to make the Alliance look foolish, so it's understandable from a story standpoint (though why Alleria would walk into that is a mystery to me, apparently even High elves are poor diplomats if they join the Alliance).

What makes it bad writing is that she just happens to randomly cause a Sunwell attack because of her void energy thing. Horrible writing in this regard, even if it didn't blatantly paint her to be an inept fool which she has proven to be anything but.

Given the circumstances I don't blame Tyrande for being weary of the Nightborne, she has always looked down on arcane users anyways(she was against allowing the Highborne back into Night Elf society before Malfurion convinced her iirc).

I don't know, Tyrande's character is weird these days.

There really isn't any way to justify her behavior in this scenario. She's made out to be an idiot because it fits the Horde side of the scenario. They could have convinced the Nightborne without them just deciding "Gosh, the alliance are idiots, I guess we better go with the Horde on a whim even though they haven't really convinced us with actual evidence they are trustworthy since the Alliance is mean to me." Did I mention that Thalryssa jumps to some inaccurate conclusions about the Alliance as well? None of the cultures of the Alliance are truly held back in any way. Kal'dorei would have grown to trust them and respect each other in a realistic scenario.

None the less, the horde was still better suited for them, but it should have been done in such a way that the blood elves are shown to be clever, cunning diplomats instead of "hey guys, Alliance are stupid, just join us k?"

Truly disappointing questline. I thought Blizzard had moved past this kind of storywriting, but clearly that isn't the case. Alliance are still written in as stupid, ignorant people.

[Aucald]

To be fair, it's likely he's acting this way intentionally in front of the nightborne to make the Alliance look foolish, so it's understandable from a story standpoint (though why Alleria would walk into that is a mystery to me, apparently even High elves are poor diplomats if they join the Alliance).

What makes it bad writing is that she just happens to randomly cause a Sunwell attack because of her void energy thing. Horrible writing in this regard, even if it didn't blatantly paint her to be an inept fool which she has proven to be anything but.

The current incarnation of the Sunwell was reignited using the heart of M'uru, and now is imbued with a mixture of Arcane and Light energies. These Light energies, and the essence of a former Naaru, probably don't react so great with the essence of the darkened L'ura that Alleria is now carrying within her - that is the likely culprit of the Void tear that is created when she gets into proximity of the Sunwell, the energies of the Void are drawn out due to the presence of a strong Light signature.

There really isn't any way to justify her behavior in this scenario. She's made out to be an idiot because it fits the Horde side of the scenario. They could have convinced the Nightborne without them just deciding "Gosh, the alliance are idiots, I guess we better go with the Horde on a whim even though they haven't really convinced us with actual evidence they are trustworthy since the Alliance is mean to me." Did I mention that Thalryssa jumps to some inaccurate conclusions about the Alliance as well? None of the cultures of the Alliance are truly held back in any way. Kal'dorei would have grown to trust them and respect each other in a realistic scenario.

None the less, the horde was still better suited for them, but it should have been done in such a way that the blood elves are shown to be clever, cunning diplomats instead of "hey guys, Alliance are stupid, just join us k?"

I don't think Tyrande's bungling of the Insurrection campaign in Suramar necessarily paints her or the Alliance in general as idiots, per se; she was just the wrong person for the job as it were. Personally I think Vereesa, Shandris, or even Malfurion would've been a better fit as an ambassador to the Nightfallen rebellion at the time - Veressa could've played on the chord of being thematically closer to the Nightborne as a High Elf, and Malfurion could've provided additional support as a Druid capitalizing on the Nightfallen's already close rapport with Valewalker Farodin. Shandris seemed pretty even-keeled, so she might've been a touch distant but not quite the same level as Tyrande. The situation required an Elven touch on the Alliance's part, and Tyrande was the senior Elf available at the time - but her distance, distrust, and disdain for the Nightborne made her ill-equipped at dealing with them and their needs.

[ello]

It isn't implied to be the case.

Here is where I got that impression from:

First Arcanist Thalyssra: It would seem "Elune's wisdom" guided her away from the bond we once shared. So be it.
Lady Liadrin: The sin'dorei are also scorned by Tyrande and her prideful lot. Yet for many ages her people slept in dens or hid in trees while my people fought to save this world.
First Arcanist Thalyssra: The Alliance feels too walled off... too cloistered. My people will never endure such stagnation again.
First Arcanist Thalyssra: That is why I am grateful for your invitation to Silvermoon. I would like to inquire whether there could be a place for the nightborne in your Horde.
Lady Liadrin: I am sure the regent lord will be pleased to learn of your interest. Are you ready to depart?

It was Thalyssra that asked Liadrin, not the other way around. I'm not even sure why they went to Silvermoon, Liadrin coulda just said "Yup! Now come meet the Warchiefy", but I guess that wouldn't be proper Elf decorum

Honestly Liadrin didn't even do any convincing, she just nodded along and reaffirmed her already conceived notions of the Alliance & Tyrande.

First Arcanist Thalyssra: The Alliance feels too walled off... too cloistered. My people will never endure such stagnation again.

-Happens before Silvermoon

First Arcanist Thalyssra: The Horde embodies strength. Determination. Individuality. Traits we shal'dorei value as well.

-probably based on what she saw at Suramar.

Sounds like she made her mind up long ago, the visit to Silvermoon was just a formality.

[corebit]

They also kinda summoned legion in a first place.

You specifically implied Night Elves are different from the Highborne in order to accuse them of being uncivilized, and now you conveniently group them up together to accuse them of summoning the Legion?

[Kithelle]

Don't forgot that she refers to the new races recruited as "Arrows in *her* quiver"

[Friendlyimmolation]

Don't forgot that she refers to the new races recruited as "Arrows in *her* quiver"

The blood oath of the Horde swears you to be the instrument of the Warchief, your flesh and blood given willingly.

[therealbowser]

The blood oath of the Horde swears you to be the instrument of the Warchief, your flesh and blood given willingly.

That is because they are respected in the same way they serve. Both Thrall and Vol'jin treated the Horde as a people, not as tools. Sylvanas is just being blatantly arrogant about it. She's not that secure in her position as Warchief.

[Skoll Shorties]

..."The boy-king sits at the master's table. Three lies will he offer you." More lies it sounds like.

[lazypeon100]

Sylvanas playing lip service what a surprise ;P

I am more baffled Anduin says pretty much the same, despite neither main factions playing any really significant role during the xpac.

I think it's implied that the legion isn't just invading the broken shore, that they are attacking everywhere though it isn't properly shown in game. This would explain why both the horde and the alliance took such a back seat during this expansion, they had multiple continents they had to defend. It would also explain why both anduin and sylvanas say the same thing essentially.

[therealbowser]

The current incarnation of the Sunwell was reignited using the heart of M'uru, and now is imbued with a mixture of Arcane and Light energies. These Light energies, and the essence of a former Naaru, probably don't react so great with the essence of the darkened L'ura that Alleria is now carrying within her - that is the likely culprit of the Void tear that is created when she gets into proximity of the Sunwell, the energies of the Void are drawn out due to the presence of a strong Light signature.

The point is that she caused it to happen in her naivette. "Oops, sorry, I didn't mean to cause the sunwell to get randomly attacked while I was on a diplomatic mission in front of the nightborne we were trying to recruit into the Alliance." Ridiculously convenient, and makes Alleria out to be careless, which is not a trait any ranger should have, let alone one as legendary as Alleria Windrunner herself. It's just insulting that the writing is this bad.

I don't think Tyrande's bungling of the Insurrection campaign in Suramar necessarily paints her or the Alliance in general as idiots, per se; she was just the wrong person for the job as it were. Personally I think Vereesa, Shandris, or even Malfurion would've been a better fit as an ambassador to the Nightfallen rebellion at the time - Veressa could've played on the chord of being thematically closer to the Nightborne as a High Elf, and Malfurion could've provided additional support as a Druid capitalizing on the Nightfallen's already close rapport with Valewalker Farodin. Shandris seemed pretty even-keeled, so she might've been a touch distant but not quite the same level as Tyrande. The situation required an Elven touch on the Alliance's part, and Tyrande was the senior Elf available at the time - but her distance, distrust, and disdain for the Nightborne made her ill-equipped at dealing with them and their needs.

None of this is related to the insurrection campaign, the Kal'dorei openly show they are helping the Nightborne to stop the Legion, but they are still saving their people from annihilation. I am specifically referring to the Nightborne's induction into the Horde.

Why was she there, then? Why did she callously throw away an Alliance with the nightborne? Has she learned nothing since Mists of Pandaria about not asking rashly and emotionally? It's like Tyrande has had zero character development since the beginning of World of Warcraft... which is actually, kind of accurate.

If the error was in the choice of who they sent, then they should have sent Alleria or Malfurion to recruit the Nightborne instead. Or as you say, Vereesa. And they would have been happy to correct Liadrin's lies about the night elven people and the Alliance in general.

Instead, Tyrande insults the nightborne and leaves, basically encouraging them to join the Horde because Tyrande. Great storywriting, there. Very compelling.

This feels like Cataclysm 2.0: The Alliance screws up again. This really makes me worried what is to come in the actual BfA continent content. I have this sinking feeling that we are going to see a lot more storywriting like this.

[Mehrunes]

You have no clai...
*FOR THE HORDE*
Like i was saying, you are not...
*FOR THE HORDE*
Excuse me but i trying to...
*FOR THE HORDE*

Seems a fiting leader for them.

I assume you wanted to say claim at the start. If that assumption is correct, what exactly does the Horde have no claim to?

What's the point of this thread?

The OP is triggered by Sylvanas and wanted group therapy. You know, the usual.

I'm not trying to take sides or anything but, to be fair, an Alliance leader did selflessly sacrifice himself to save his men. Meanwhile in the same battle, the Horde leadership's desire to save their own skins instead of sacrificing themselves like said Alliance leader caused the assault on the Tomb of Sargeras to immediately fall apart.

Given how Alliance sacrifice did nothing against the Legion itself, why exactly would it have been different for the Horde?

I wouldn't go so far as to call her Machiavellian. She just tends to do underhanded shit and never suffers any consequences for it because of her plot armour.

Do give examples.

[Mehrunes]

"Sacrificing themselves like said Alliance leader" would not have been heroic so much as idiotic because the sacrifice, unlike Varian's, would have served no purpose other than to scupper the prospects of the Horde's continued contribution to the conflict.

Even that is questionable. At least in case one expects purpose other than making Varian look kewl and forcibly paving the way for Blanduin. The Alliance gunships have four guns on the sides. Varian was not in line of fire of either of them. The Fel Reaver on the other hand was. Both the hand that was holding the gunship and it's vulnerable (as proven by Varian) head. If shot by those guns point blank it should have at least lost its grip on the gunship, if not dropped dead.

This war against Sylvanas from some people is really odd and is beginning to be a bit old and meaningless, since it is grasping at straws.

Sayeth what?! How dare you?! Members of this poor subgroup of Alliance players were personally touched by someone they may have believed to be Sylvanas in their no-no places when they were children. It's insensitive comments like this one that makes them act out in the first place, because they trigger their PTSD.

For Alliance supremacists to once again find an excuse to shit on the Horde and reeeeeee about favoritism or something.

I'll give you an excuse to shit on the Horde. But they never need an excuse to reeeeeee about favoritism (obviously things like Alliance having more zones before Cata or Alliance having a faction-unique storyline in 7.2 while the Horde does not don't count as favoritism, even though they are actually countable and as such objective examples of quantity imbalance, as opposed to their usual whine about their subjective opinions about the quality of things). Because Nobundo was wrong. Everything that is is not alive. Everything that exists is HORDE BIAS. So reeeeeeeeing about Horde favoritism is only natural outcome of things.

dude, really? I know you like the horde and all, and its fine but really? You can more than clearly see Tyrande and more than a bunch of night elves there fighting in Suramar. Its not like shes not the night elf racial leader or anything since the start of the game.

It is perfectly fine to have faction loyalty but at least but some reality in the argument.

You can also more than clearly see Tyrande, the Night Elf racial leader or something, being the person who insulted Thalyssra by comparing her to not one Elven traitors who joined the Legion, but two. Including the person Thalyssra was just rebelling against and who tried to kill her, as well as the biggest traitor in Night Elven history. Blood Elven representatives had enough tact and brain cells not to make such idiotic remarks.

[StaeleAilar]

It is reasonable to be friends with ones who helped you nicely but it is absurd to kill the other who helped you reluctantly ... especially those that you once abandoned in hell.

i think this is the part that a lot of the "tyrande is a bitch" camp seem to forget. Tyrande, came back WITH HER PEOPLE to destroy legion demons that had seized control of an ancient elven city and aided the rebels there to liberate their home. The home that *was* Tyrande's until they decided to put up a bubble and seal themselves off and not even TRY to help with the first invasion of the legion. I personally would be pissed off about having to sacrifice my own people to liberate a city of people that turned their back on us the last time the same thing happened.

Do not get me wrong, i agree that the dialogue written for Tyrande is very mediocre and comes across as bitchy if you look into it a lot more than what is there, but really, can you blame her?
At the same time i also get why people seem to think Liadrin and the blood elves care more (they don't - given their history the additonal power that these ancient night elves have with the arcane - ya know the life force of the blood elves before their sunwell? - is more than likely why they "care") since they too have known "addiction" to a well. But i agree with a lot of the alliance people in here. It is a bit of a slap in the face.

We *also* saved the nightborne. We *also* saved the highmountain tauren, when (now that we know what we know) we probably should have just let them die to the legion and then killed them as legion fodder.
If there is good writing and good story to justify all of these things, then i don't mind. I like to have good story when i play the game whatever that may entail. But unfortunately, with a lot of it, it's just kinda slapped in and hey this is a thing now.

[Mehrunes]

No, I mean that they don't give a damn about anything other than themselves and will stab anyone from behind to achieve their own goals.

And the world you see right now exists because of these uncivilized, living in wall-less building people.

Are you referring to them winning the War of the Ancients or something? Because if so, it's Night Elves that created that problem and brought the Legion's attention to Azeroth in the first place. So yay, Night Elves didn't completely fuck up the world and cleaned their mess. Whoopty doo.