View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #2281
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockyreg View Post
    But I thought they were putting this text into a legal agreement? The text as it currently stands prevents this situation from happening.
    Here's the text as it stands:

    5. Under the caveat that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, the joint
    commitments set out below in this joint report shall be reflected in the Withdrawal
    Agreement in full detail. This does not prejudge any adaptations that might be
    appropriate in case transitional arrangements were to be agreed in the second phase of
    the negotiations, and
    [...]
    49. The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to
    its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible
    with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve
    these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible,
    the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique
    circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United
    Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the
    Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the allisland
    economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.

    [...]
    That bold part is the one that's interesting. And putting it into legal agremeents ratified by the UK Government only means this will be valid and legal in case the overall agreement is agreed upon by the UK and the EU. That's the deal, you either agree to everything or to nothing. That's exactly why the EU wanted the exit talks before the trade talks. So the UK can't weasel its way out of things they don't like but are necessary.
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  2. #2282
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    If you enter the EEA, there won't be a problem. The border will remain open and this whole sub-debate will vanish with a *poof* into a cloud of smoke. You will have free movement of goods, services, people and capital, you will adhere to EU regulations, you will observe the external border of the EU as far as the UK is concerned, you will pay more into the EU budget than you are now and you won't have any say in the decisions made in the EU. And we will live happily ever after.

    I hope you get what you want. I really do. This whole border dispute is silly.

    Just because it's remotely interesting for you:

    I hope so, for me EEA is a no brainer even if it is an intermediate thing for 10-15 years to see what the lie of the land is. Thats why I said I'm glad the joint agreement will become a legal document as it will more quickly shape what agreement will come out of it and hopefully save us from another year of this bollocks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Here's the text as it stands:



    That bold part is the one that's interesting. And putting it into legal agremeents ratified by the UK Government only means this will be valid and legal in case the overall agreement is agreed upon by the UK and the EU. That's the deal, you either agree to everything or to nothing. That's exactly why the EU wanted the exit talks before the trade talks. So the UK can't weasel its way out of things they don't like but are necessary.
    The ambiguous points at the moment are 'full alignment' and 'support North-South cooperation'. These are the points that I would like to have clarification on, and would hope the legal document would cover.

  3. #2283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It's not a faux solidarity, as much as you're trying to goad us into admitting it. You're essentially saying what Ireland wants is as important as what 25 other countries want at the same time. Solidarity doesn't quite work like that. We are showing solidarity with Ireland in that they are going to be the ones that decide whether or not a deal can happen. We're also showing solidarity by offering the UK solutions that are not strictly within what we'd do with other countries. We do that, because Ireland is involved. But at some point, we have to ask Ireland... is this worth it? Is betraying the fundamental core principles that the EU is based on and that the EU stands for worth squabbling over a border that is rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things? And mostly because the British are children that can't actually solve ridiculous problems like the NI question like adults?

    No, sir. The EU is not worth sacrificing over a bunch of children in NI that cannot behave themselves. And ultimately, Ireland, a country that we bailed out and allowed a very loose tax policy for, will agree with the EU. As much as Great Britain would like that, they're far from driving a wedge between EU nations. And that's what your secret wish really is. Because if the EU suceeds without the UK, and it seems to be doing very well, thank you, that would mean the UK has made not only the wrong decision, but a very silly wrong decision that they were warned about before time and again.
    Leo Varadkar, the Irish prime minister:

    He said Ireland regarded the EU27 countries, not the UK, as its closest friends. Although Ireland wanted a friendship with the UK, he said its “very closest relations” were with its EU partners, “just as they were our best friends in the weeks gone by” (a reference to how the EU27 stuck with Ireland on the border issue in the phase one talks).

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...a6e706a551cee5


  4. #2284
    Quote Originally Posted by ranzino View Post
    Leo Varadkar, the Irish prime minister:

    He said Ireland regarded the EU27 countries, not the UK, as its closest friends. Although Ireland wanted a friendship with the UK, he said its “very closest relations” were with its EU partners, “just as they were our best friends in the weeks gone by” (a reference to how the EU27 stuck with Ireland on the border issue in the phase one talks).

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...a6e706a551cee5

    And that's exactly what I meant. The Irish don't forget, and the EU will continue to look out for its members and put their interests above all others. And the only solution that the EU will accept is a solution that Ireland will accept. And in this, the EU has given Ireland a Carte Blanche. No influencing, no nothing. If Ireland is against it, the EU is against it, no conditions attached. And he tries to tell me we're not solidarizing with Ireland. Ridiculous.
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  5. #2285
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockyreg View Post
    An EU citizen travelling to the UK will not be deemed an Illegal Immigrant unless they try to settle or gain employment, I expect visa-free travel would be available between the EU/UK. If an actual illegal immigrant got onto the Island of Ireland then there is every chance that they entered in the ROI, so yes they would be checking as they currently do as they are not part of Schengen.
    Just out of curiousity, what legal basis would tell someone who can enter the UK freely without beeing checked to also be an illegal immigrant?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  6. #2286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Just out of curiousity, what legal basis would tell someone who can enter the UK freely without beeing checked to also be an illegal immigrant?
    he/she is only illegal if they want to work. roaming the countryside as a tourist will always be fine; come again and bring more money. same with pensioners who do not rely on the hospitality of UK. just my guess here.
    poínt is: UK could not have them stopped from entry in the first place, such an open border says "welcome and have a nice day, good sir/ma'am" UK wiil have to sort them out later.

  7. #2287
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    You say that as if it was up to the EU to delineate the separation of powers in the UK - My PM isn't legally allowed to sign papers absent consent from parliament.
    Maybe the UK should just reign in it's dictatorial government.
    Brown didn't sign the treaty until it had passed through both houses of Parliament and received royal assent. This was 2 years before the next Prime Minister took office so I don't know what they mean by an "outgoing" PM "speed-signing" the document.

  8. #2288
    This cannot be true can it?
    The Brexit secretary also had cause to thank John Bercow a few moments later, when the Speaker ruled he hadn’t been in contempt of parliament. It had been a close-run thing, though, with Bercow appearing to have decided, on balance, that Davis had been too stupid to mislead the Commons and was merely guilty of being spectacularly incompetent by failing to make himself clear.
    Link

  9. #2289
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    This cannot be true can it?

    Link
    Really? Go back to the article and look in the top left hand corner.

    But no it's true David Davis did really travel into a "parallel world"
    Last edited by Pann; 2017-12-14 at 11:19 PM.

  10. #2290
    Quote Originally Posted by ranzino View Post
    he/she is only illegal if they want to work. roaming the countryside as a tourist will always be fine; come again and bring more money. same with pensioners who do not rely on the hospitality of UK. just my guess here.
    poínt is: UK could not have them stopped from entry in the first place, such an open border says "welcome and have a nice day, good sir/ma'am" UK wiil have to sort them out later.
    So whenever they find a homeless person they will get rid of their papers and claim they are illegal immigrants from RoI?

  11. #2291
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Ultimately though, doesn't the biggest blame land on the voters?
    It's a fair point, but I think it's a reasonable criticism of a leader that he would (a) put such a thing to a referendum in the first place (for pure short-sighted political purposes no less) and (b) allow the referendum on something so important and consequential to the UK to go ahead with a simple majority vote, when even the 1979 Scottish devolution referendum had a clause requiring the yes vote to represent 40% of the total electorate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    This cannot be true can it?

    Link
    Is this the plot of an episode of Blackadder?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  12. #2292
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    This cannot be true can it?

    Link
    The politics sketch is exaggerated for comedic effect.

  13. #2293
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmelded View Post
    The politics sketch is exaggerated for comedic effect.
    Though given the insanity of brexit, that may not be readily apparent for those not in the know.

  14. #2294
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    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    RoI is not a British satellite state to bully as they please.
    Nobody said it was, it's the EU trying to bully both RoI and the UK on this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    Suggesting RoI should close their border to France just to spare the UK the trouble of dealing with the issue is naive, and that's putting it mildly.
    Nobody suggested that, I merely pointed out that if France don't like how RoI handle their borders and don't want to come to a compromise maybe they should close their border with RoI (not saying they should go that route, they should instead start being reasonable about it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    What problem?
    The problem being discussed? The EU being unhappy with the RoI/UK border, duh... :S

    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    No.
    No such treaties exist.
    Yes, yes they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    It is entirely the UK's problem that they navigated themselves into a situation where they have to go back on their word because of the mess they made of their treaties.
    No it is not, like I said previously, the EU knew full well when it agreed to treaties with the UK/RoI in 1993 that we already had existing treaties which superseded the EU ones in the event or either of us withdrawing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Yes, no one wishes for it. That is precisely the point.
    Indeed, this is why Ireland and the UK want the UK to see sense and compromise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    You had a controlled border before the good friday agreement
    No, we had a border which was normally open (and had been since 70 years before the creation of the EU) but was temporarily controlled due to ongoing terrorist activities.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    you do not get to force the EU to open their border to external forces just to accomodate what is essentially a national hiccup and ultimately a domestic matter of the UK.
    RoI isn't in the UK, you're thinking of NI.

  15. #2295
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    RoI isn't in the UK, you're thinking of NI.
    The Troubles were an English problem and a problem of NI, primarily. This whole dilemma is really an internal British matter. And we're absolutely behind the RoI in this. If all breaks down and you get a hard exit, it won't be Dublin that'll have bomb attacks again. It will be Belfast and London.
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  16. #2296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I think it's a reasonable criticism of a leader that he would (a) put such a thing to a referendum in the first place (for pure short-sighted political purposes no less) and (b) allow the referendum on something so important and consequential to the UK to go ahead with a simple majority vote, when even the 1979 Scottish devolution referendum had a clause requiring the yes vote to represent 40% of the total electorate.
    In fairness he never expected the Brexiteers to fluke a victory, the chances of that happening were and still are low. So from his perspective it was a win/win, give them their referendum and shut them up for a while while re-confirming the UK's commitment to Europe. As the referendum wasn't legally binding and was never going to result in Brexit nobody saw any need for a representation clause (fools).

    Sadly he failed to realise how many people were still mad at getting screwed over by the Lisbon treaty, how many lies the Brexiteers would openly say to win the votes of fools and how many remain voters would be discouraged from voting by a remain campaign that basically consisted of "Brexit's dumb, nobody would do that, it's a done deal, no need to even show up" >.>

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    The Troubles were an English problem and a problem of NI, primarily.
    No they were a problem of Ireland, between the RoI (where many people wanted RoI to absorb NI) and NI (where most people didn't want to leave the UK or join RoI).

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    And we're absolutely behind the RoI in this.
    If you were behind RoI you (the EU) would be willing to compromise on the issue instead of trying to throw RoI under the bus to spite the UK.

  17. #2297
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    No they were a problem of Ireland, between the RoI (where many people wanted RoI to absorb NI) and NI (where most people didn't want to leave the UK or join RoI).


    If you were behind RoI you (the EU) would be willing to compromise on the issue instead of trying to throw RoI under the bus to spite the UK.
    We are compromising. That's why we're being nice and proceeding to the second phase without Britain making just one coherent argument or suggestion. You should acknowledge the EU's patience in dealing with quite an amateur. An untrustworthy one, too. But as I pointed out earlier, don't lean back. This bit is the bit where the EU is actually good at. You're in our home territory now. Dress warmly, it'll get cold rather soon.
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  18. #2298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    We are compromising.
    So you're coming around to the inevitability of the RoI/NI border remaining open after Brexit, good to hear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    we're being nice and proceeding to the second phase without Britain making just one coherent argument or suggestion.
    Have you seen our new prime minister? coherent arguments and suggestions are not her forte :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You should acknowledge the EU's patience in dealing with quite an amateur. An untrustworthy one, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You're in our home territory now. Dress warmly, it'll get cold rather soon.
    The irony here is just hilarious XD

  19. #2299
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    The UK wants a transition period of 2 years after the Brexit. The EU says they may, if they follow all rules and regulations even no longer having a seat at the table.

    The UK ambassador in Belgium, just said they don't want a lot of changes after as it would hurt industries.

    Still left wondering what the Brexit will actually mean. The Illusion of not being part of the EU and still subject to all rules and regulations? So they can sell to their voters that they have just as much sovereignity as they used to have?

  20. #2300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    How so? please do elaborate.
    The EU knew full well when it agreed to treaties with the UK/RoI in 1993 that we already had existing treaties which superseded the EU ones in the event or either of us withdrawing. Now one of us is withdrawing they are trying to demand their treaty takes precedence over ours, they want to eat their cake and they want to eat our cakes too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Still left wondering what the Brexit will actually mean.
    Loss of trade, lower wages, lower standards of living, more African/middle eastern immigrants (one of the Brexiteer idiots biggest complaints about EU membership believe it or not), diminishment of international standing, probably the end of being the top dog in Europe on the international stage. Then a decade or so of the Brexiteers blaming everything on the EU or our politicians or the non-EU immigrants, then eventually an application to rejoin the EU with much worse terms than we have now, once the existing remain majority can become even stronger and make its voice loud enough.

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