[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Jodmos]

That end bit made perfect sense.

Go back half way through the film, we see the kids eyes light up when they see the rebellion ring and they don't hit the alarm
Then go back to the point on the falcon when leah says we have everything we need. She referring to that spark of hope.
The first part of the end scene with kids is one of them retelling the story of the resistance on that planet, showing that the tales of the battle have already traveled far and wide. One Jedi against an army (No one would need to know its a forge projection), one small broken resistance group of survivors in a decommissioned base against the might of the first order. It would be an epic tale which would inspire people. Now you got to remember these kids have essentially been brought up as slaves and physically beat on it, so hearing a tale like this would likely inspire them as well. Essentially it's symbolizing the future generation of rebel fighters.

Now the interesting part, the part I'm going back to watch the movie again incase my eyes deceived me.

The kid with the broom, when it's leaning on the doorframe we see him reach for it. I'm 150% sure he didn't grab it, he got within a few inches and it moved to his hand. It happened so fast but I'm sure that kid is force sensitive. This could also show a new generation of Jedi is still possible (and in the works, who knows? maybe we're seeing the hero for the next trilogy)

Certainly what I thought. I also thought that when sweeping the broom may not have been low enough but the wind from it and the lightness of straw may have made it move.

I didn't like the bit about tracking in hyperspace. Seemed a maguffin for the plot but not great for down the line as now escaping means squat if the first order can just track where they went.

[Archon14]

Did anyone else get the feel that the character deaths weren't necessarily final?

I'm sure we'll see Luke as a spirit again. But what about Phasma and Snoke? Phasma fell in full armor through flames towards the lower part of the ship (or ship below Snoke's ship? not sure) and to me it seemed like it's possible she survived. The only death that actually seemed final to me was Snoke's (which I said was the only real problem I've had with the movie), and since we didn't find out anything about him, it's either a cheap way to get rid of the character, or Rian had more plans for him in Episode 9.

What concerns me the most about all of that is, it's not Rian directing Episode 9, right? So whatever plans for the story he had and possible twists and surprises, we might actually not see them in the next movie. And if the next movie sucks, then it could easily bring down this movie as well (and I really love this movie).
But maybe that's a good thing, leaving us with a bunch of questions and love/hate relations with the movie because they know there's another movie to settle the whole thing for good. Although that puts more pressure on the last movie (and I don't know if JJ can pull it off).

[Slybak]

I do not like to see a human in the floating in space come out alive! leia was unconscious that survive is ridiculous!
finn must have died! It is impossible that he can return, from the front, carrying someone to the base!
it took them a long time to get there flying!
I can not understand how a person as pathetic as hux can become such a high rank officer!

before there were great officers like tarkin or thrawn

Snoke is the worst I've ever seen!
Now a teenager rules the galaxy !!

this was bad! star wars deserved a better movie

This was a movie about the burdens of leadership, heroism, legacy, and legend, crafted in such a way as to subvert what we expect from a Star Wars film and yet concludes in a place that is much deeper and satisfying. If that's the kind of Star Wars movie that rubs people the wrong way, fine. A lot of people are not going to enjoy mature self-reflection in a movie franchise that, lets face it, is basically for kids.

But if these are your complaints, then frankly you've done nothing to alter my opinion me that TLJ is a steak that's been served to too many people who have subsisted on a diet of doritos and snickers bars.

[Mormolyce]

It has been said in every movie (twice in ANH) and a ton of other media. SO cutting it out at this point seems silly

They should've cut it in TFA, if you ask me.

[Slybak]

I'm sure we'll see Luke as a spirit again. But what about Phasma and Snoke? Phasma fell in full armor through flames towards the lower part of the ship (or ship below Snoke's ship? not sure) and to me it seemed like it's possible she survived. The only death that actually seemed final to me was Snoke's (which I said was the only real problem I've had with the movie), and since we didn't find out anything about him, it's either a cheap way to get rid of the character, or Rian had more plans for him in Episode 9.

Snoke's "story" doesn't matter for the same reason that Palpatine's "story" didn't matter for Episodes 4-6, which is why it wasn't fleshed out to any extent until the EU and the prequels. Ask yourself, seriously, what do you know about Palpatine just from ANH, ESB, and ROTJ? He was mentioned once in the first one, had a brief appearance in the second, and only had a real presence in ROTJ during the last third of the movie. Even his name isn't mentioned. You can make a similar analogy with Phasma and Boba Fett, the latter of whom only had any kind of real life as a character in the original EU.

What concerns me the most about all of that is, it's not Rian directing Episode 9, right? So whatever plans for the story he had and possible twists and surprises, we might actually not see them in the next movie. And if the next movie sucks, then it could easily bring down this movie as well (and I really love this movie).
But maybe that's a good thing, leaving us with a bunch of questions and love/hate relations with the movie because they know there's another movie to settle the whole thing for good. Although that puts more pressure on the last movie (and I don't know if JJ can pull it off).

Honestly, JJ probably couldn't have asked for a better place to be than starting with where TLJ left off, and if Episode 9 is bad its going to be on him. You have a clear central hero and a clear central villain and their inner conflicts are in a place that can make for great character drama.

[Elim Garak]

Phasma had more lines than Boba

[Mormolyce]

Of course it would always just be elements of the EU, you couldn't expect them to keep everything. I'd rather this trilogy have been about an extragalactic species invading than a military suddenly rising to superior power out of nowhere with seemingly unlimited resources that is never explained. The Yuuzhan Vong actually gave Palpatine a motive for creating the Empire instead of the "Let's just be evil for the lulz and oppress the galaxy for no apparent reason" motivation that he has without them.

I don't ever want to see the Vong in any other fiction. That's when I stopped reading the EU.

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Very much so, especially when you consider that if only they had only properly parked their spaceship the Resistance could have escaped

It's a lot worse than that, if Finn and Rose had stayed on the cruiser the whole time and done absolutely nothing, the First Order wouldn't have had the escaping cloaked shuttles revealed to them by DJ, so Leia and Holdo's plan would've gone off without a hitch and the Resistance would've eluded the First Order altogether.

[Elim Garak]

It's always funny how cetain people think that characters in a movie should be perfect and make no mistakes, because if they do mistakes - it's a plot hole.

[Arrowstormen]

I watched it again last night, and I do think it's my favorite Star Wars movie. I also think it's the most intelligent Star Wars movie, and it's almost everything a blockbuster adventure could hope to be. Fun, funny, exciting, visually beautiful, filled with great action, great acting, great characters and character arcs, a wondrous world, actual surprises and an actual feeling of danger and a belief that important characters can actually die.

[Archon14]

You have a clear central hero and a clear central villain and their inner conflicts are in a place that can make for great character drama.

That's true. But we also know there's much more that makes star wars special. What I enjoyed about Last Jedi is that it was kind of crazy. I want to see more of that, breath of fresh air, but done in unexpected ways. I've heard that they were confident in letting Rian Johnson direct the next whole trilogy. Which probably means we would get to see completely different star wars that we're probably not used to (at least in the movie universe). Of course, that's a huge risk, but Star Wars movies were always kind of a risk, weren't they?

[Slybak]

This is probably the worst aspect of the film, the plot is a swiss cheese of contrivances used to set up the character moments they want. Contrivances are a normal part of this kind of fantasy film but in this case I felt like there were way too many, some were forgiveable but others were downright egregious, and in the end it became so overloaded with them that it tripped on its own feet. I'm not going to go into it because then I'd be here for hours, but let me just point out one glaring one I noticed even in the theatre - if Poe, Finn and Rose had decided to do absolutely nothing, sit on the ship and wait then the outcome would've been either better or worst case scenario, the same. Their entire plot threads in this movie were not merely pointless but downright counterproductive.

Poe has an obsession with heroes and heroism; people who strike out on their own, damn what the leaders say, and fixing everything themselves so they can feel the rush of being the good guy. Realizing that this obsession nearly destroyed all that he cared about, and recognizing the selfless duty of Leia and Holdo, is literally his entire character arc. The one person who did the most damage to the First Order is the same person he mutinied against and called a traitor not 20 minutes earlier in the film. Rose has a similar arc with respect to how she and her sister thought of Finn, and her coming to terms with the fact that he's just a mere mortal. Narratively, Finn's arc was the weakest of the film, mostly drowned out by a less than stellar execution vis-a-vis his and Rose's interactions with DJ. You can only really see the outlines of his story if you squint hard enough.

I think this is largely due to the fact that Johnson wanted to introduce a critique of imperialist capitalism and how the real hives of scum and villainy aren't populated with petty criminals, but with grotesquely rich fucks who profit off of other peoples misery on a much larger scale than mere pirates or smugglers do. And that's an interesting commentary, but it wound up drowning out what they should have done with Finn. They should have focused more on DJ as a man purely out for his own survival and benefit, like Finn was for most of TFA, and Finn coming to terms with the fact that thats the type of person he didn't want to be anymore.

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That's true. But we also know there's much more that makes star wars special. What I enjoyed about Last Jedi is that it was kind of crazy. I want to see more of that, breath of fresh air, but done in unexpected ways. I've heard that they were confident in letting Rian Johnson direct the next whole trilogy. Which probably means we would get to see completely different star wars that we're probably not used to (at least in the movie universe). Of course, that's a huge risk, but Star Wars movies were always kind of a risk, weren't they?

No one expected a movie about Wolverine to basically follow the same narrative arc as a Western, yet Logan is probably the highest rated "comic book movies" among fans of the genre. Taking risks is good. My frustration with the conversation surrounding TLJ is that the fanbase is too caught up in the trappings of Star Wars to really appreciate how much the risks Johnson & Co took with it have paid off in terms of the franchise's heart. Star Wars asks you what it means to be a hero. TLJ asks you not to worry about being a hero and just do the right thing, because then you won't be tripping over your own ego. That's the central thread sewn throughout the movie.

[Archon14]

I also think it's the most intelligent Star Wars movie

My initial reaction after watching it, was that I saw something a bit more layered than anything from JJ (Force Awakens, the three Star Trek movies) and Lucas (Prequels, and even New Hope). Now, you might dislike certain moments, certain dialogues, but the structure was still there. Few paths going their own way, and then starting slowly to intertwine, as the pace starts accelerating, and it goes faster and deeper and twists are happening faster and more often as you get closer to the end.

At least that's how it looked to me. I'll definitely watch it again to dig deeper.

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No one expected a movie about Wolverine to basically follow the same narrative arc as a Western, yet Logan is probably the highest rated "comic book movies" among fans of the genre. Taking risks is good.

Logan is my movie of the year. But Logan did have a couple of easy-way-out scenarios. Set it in the far future, make the professor near death and going crazy, and Logan as grumpy as possible, and suddenly having them curse and yell in a generally much darker tone of the movie than any x-men movies is not out of place anymore, but instead it fits (and more importantly, it works).
Rian had to continue the story right where the previous movie ended, and try to completely change the dynamic and bring us something different, with way more characters and a huge universe to fill, unlike Logan where it could be a pure character-driven drama, and hide the surroundings under "mutants are gone, and the rest of the world doesn't even care about mutant threat anymore". Btw, I'm not saying that's a bad thing for Logan, it works, and for me seeing the Logan Noir version was easily one of the best things I've seen in years. But Rian definitely had bigger shoes to fill imho.

Which is why appreciate his risk more (and why I think he had more room to fail). Deadpool took some of the risks before Logan and gave them a confidence boost that a movie like Logan could work.

[George Costanza]

I literally cried when luke died. It was beautifull to say the least.

I liked the movie overall aside from a few things (force ghosts being able to use the force to interact with the world, as opposed to just talking, also an appearance from obi wan or some other(maybe a council of jedi ghosts or something) would be my preference over just Yoda appearing.

sorry but spoiler button doesnt appear on mmo-c

[Archon14]

would be my preference over just Yoda appearing.

I think it makes sense, since Yoda was Luke's teacher and seeing him lecture Luke again was nostalgic and kind of poetic, that no matter how wise and older you got, your mentor could still give you clarity and figure you out.

Or maybe the director was just like "this would be cool" and I'm giving the moment too much significance, who knows.

[Kathandira]

I think it makes sense, since Yoda was Luke's teacher and seeing him lecture Luke again was nostalgic and kind of poetic, that no matter how wise and older you got, your mentor could still give you clarity and figure you out.

Or maybe the director was just like "this would be cool" and I'm giving the moment too much significance, who knows.

I think the Yoda scene was the wisest moment he has had in the entire franchise. from the lesson he taught, to the way he handled destroying the tree. he likely knew Rey had taken the books with her, which I believe is why he burned down the tree without hesitation, and with such joy.

His line about students are meant to surpass the teacher was basically the last brick in building the structure of letting go of the past, and start building a new future. I really enjoyed that bit.

[Arrowstormen]

I think the Yoda scene was the wisest moment he has had in the entire franchise. from the lesson he taught, to the way he handled destroying the tree. he likely knew Rey had taken the books with her, which I believe is why he burned down the tree without hesitation, and with such joy.

His line about students are meant to surpass the teacher was basically the last brick in building the structure of letting go of the past, and start building a new future. I really enjoyed that bit.

We are what they have grown beyond" I believe the line was.

[Faroth]

A lot of this film felt like it was a great Star Wars film meant to take place after the Skywalker saga.

I feel like Episode 7 should have focused on Luke, Han, and Leia. Same premise regarding First Order and Kylo, but with Luke having determined to correct his mistake then die without training any more Jedi, thus ending the Jedi and Sith cycle. Luke became an amazingly powerful Jedi Master in the EU and we never got to see a glimpse of that Luke in the new canon. They could have crossed paths with Rey & Finn and then over the course of the first and second film, Luke changes his mind and trains Rey.

After Luke, and without him, this film's basic plot would have been more exciting. The Resistance escape, the pursuit of the code breaker, the infiltration of the ship, Rey's confrontation with Ben & Snoke with Ben ascending to replace his master. All of that would have worked better in a post-Luke storyline.

As it is, I feel like they character assassinated Luke. Yeah, Obi-Wan and Yoda went into hiding after Vader, but they sort of seemed to have forseen that Luke or Leia were the solution to stopping Vader and Palpatine. They were biding time. Luke, on the other hand, has wholeheartedly decided he screwed up and his mistake can ruin the entire galaxy and he won't do anything about it. He's just quit.

I will say, however, that his one-with-the-Force death was well done visually. It was a nice bookend to conclude Luke's story with him gazing at a twin sunset parallel to how we were first introduced to him. Bit of poetry in that decision, but I also feel it was done with odd timing.

And as [MENTION=816541]Mormolyce[/MENTION] noted, his grand moment in this film seems a little out of place since he really didn't face Kylo at all. He just Force projected himself and then Yoda'd out. It seemed like he and Leia definitely should have swapped out because now we're set up for Episode IX with nobody whatsoever to finalize this passing of the torch.

Speaking of passing the torch, to everyone who said Rey isn't a Mary Sue and to wait for Ep VIII to explain everything...... what now?
Rey has no lineage to speak of. She's just powerful in The Force because The Force made her its chosen one. She can do everything without any training in Ep 7 and has legitimately had none whatsoever. What's more, she just trained herself to use a lightsaber, trained herself to use the Force. Luke gave her one lesson on reaching out with the Force and then focused his lessons on showing her why the Jedi were wrong and needed to end. She never started any Jedi training whatsoever and yet she's a powerful Jedi all by herself. Again to what Mormolyce said, it seemed like that "see ya around, kid" indicated there would be more Luke in Episode IX and that makes more sense after his chat with Yoda, reminding him to pass on what he has learned. But he didn't train Rey, so can we really say Luke did that? I highly doubt we're going to see him train her as a Force ghost considering they bypassed Rey having any need of any training.

She went even more Mary Sue than she started. And she continues to resolve all her conflicts with zero help from anyone. One can argue she had Kylo's help with Snoke, but she foresaw that, so it still curves back to Rey being the solution to her own problems every single time.

This new trilogy seems like a way wipe away the original characters, leaving them a smear more than a pleasant memory, with the sole intention of celebrating their new Chosen One in Rey at every opportunity. Everyone in this trilogy is pointless and their actions are ultimately meaningless save Rey's.

Just first impression from initial viewing, but overall really not terribly pleased nor impressed. Seeing it again tongiht (last night was an impromptu viewing) so I can take a step back and try to view it differently.

[Kathandira]

We are what they have grown beyond" I believe the line was.

Other way around, "They grow beyond what we are"

[Archon14]

His line about students are meant to surpass the teacher was basically the last brick in building the structure of letting go of the past, and start building a new future. I really enjoyed that bit. [/spoiler]

There were a bunch of symbolic moments in the movie. My favourite was Snoke reading Kylo and seeing his certainty in turning the blade and killing his biggest enemy, which is exactly what Kylo does in that moment. I think it's a brilliant moment that reveals a weakness in otherwise quite powerful Snoke, which is part of why I'm sad I didn't see his story in this movie. But I hope we get to see some of it in the next one.

[Elim Garak]

Yoda was quite clear on why he destroyed the books. "Read them you did. Not very entertaining they were." His point was that it's just some old boring books and they are OUTDATED. He then roasted Luke for, once again, worrying about the future, while what he needed to be doing was worry about the present. Told him to teach Rey all the mistakes he did, because failure is the best teacher.