"go play retail then" is getting old

[AceofH]

My thoughts exactly. I do sympathize with the classic WoW supporters who have spent the last decade discussing and arguing for legacy realms. I understand that they worry that outsiders will soil the version of the game they cherish. I'm not saying let us change everything. Classic is classic. But I am saying let us have a real discussion, like Blizzard asked us to. There have already been some good threads on this forum with people from both sides agreeing on certain QoL changes. It's a good thing to me.

Certain quality of life changes i could be fine with. Battle.net integration is expected. Color Blind Mode should be a guarantee. Guild Banks/Mailing upgrades. Auto Dismount. etc. i can live with these.

Transmog, LFD/LFR, Balance Changes, AoE loot, etc just don't belong in classic wow.

Transmog ruins the economy, especially for newer players.
LFD and LFR - i don't think i need to explain either of these. but if you want me to, ask.
Balance Changes - the problem with balance changes is people don't think about the entire aspect of the game. In Live a Ret Paladin has like 1/5th the toolkit of a Holy Paladin when ti comes to healing, and he can only use his heal like 4 times before being oom and it might heal him for 40% of his health total over that. in Vanilla they have access to the whole Shebang, and 2 Holy Lights will heal them to full. Combine this with Bubble and Dispells, if you gave Paladins the DPS we see a lot of them asking for on the forums, they would be utterly unstoppable.
AoE Looting only benefits two classes really. and has pvp implications.

[Jaylock]

how many times do we have to explain why something shouldn't be in vanilla before we are allowed to be exasperated over seeing the same thing asked for?

How many times between this forum and the wow forums do you think we have seen things like transmog, aoe looting, LFD, Class balance changes, etc, asked for?

There is a good balance to be found, and i'm sure Blizzard will do a great job finding that balance. But the whole argument of "if it wasn't in vanilla then its not vanilla" is a fucking stupid argument, and needs to stop. Blizzard did not say that we are getting 100% 1:1 copy / mirror of vanilla Wow. We are getting "Classic" wow, and that could mean the heart and soul of vanilla (the difficulty, the time it took to level, the epic quests, the 40 man raids, the mounts at level 40, and 100% at level 60, the old skill trees, the skill ranks, the weapon skills, etc) That doesn't mean that AoE looting is off the table, that increased stack sizes of mats is off the table, that guild banks are off the table, that improved graphics option is off the table, that dual spec is off the table... ie things that don't affect what WoW Vanilla was in the slightest.

So please, come down from your high horse and actually engage in meaningful discussion.

[God Save The King]

Transmog, LFD/LFR, Balance Changes, AoE loot, etc just don't belong in classic wow.

Agreed. Those are stepping over a line. I could see an argument for AoE looting, it is one of those things that I personally feel indifferent about, but so many hardcore classic fans have argued well against it, so I generally oppose it.

[bamf775]

Objectivity/neutrality would seem the logical trait, no? Lol

Yea tell me about it. This moderator is something else...

But back on topic, I think its perfectly acceptable for us to say "no" to changes. Just as its perfectly acceptable to express why you want changes (even if it is for your own self-interest). I and many others will just point you out for it. =)

[Shammyrock]

I could see a good argument for balance changes and boss retuning.

[Mirishka]

How are you not gonna use vanilla ice cream in your analogy...

Seemed too lazy, I guess. It did occur to me though!

[MrPaladinGuy]

If we're being technical it won't even be retail unless we're all using XP and single core processors that nearly melted trying to run a web browser + Winamp, and back when Steam was universally hated.

[AceofH]

There is a good balance to be found, and i'm sure Blizzard will do a great job finding that balance. But the whole argument of "if it wasn't in vanilla then its not vanilla" is a fucking stupid argument, and needs to stop. Blizzard did not say that we are getting 100% 1:1 copy / mirror of vanilla Wow. We are getting "Classic" wow, and that could mean the heart and soul of vanilla (the difficulty, the time it took to level, the epic quests, the 40 man raids, the mounts at level 40, and 100% at level 60, the old skill trees, the skill ranks, the weapon skills, etc) That doesn't mean that AoE looting is off the table, that increased stack sizes of mats is off the table, that guild banks are off the table, that improved graphics option is off the table, that dual spec is off the table... ie things that don't affect what WoW Vanilla was in the slightest.

So please, come down from your high horse and actually engage in meaningful discussion.

Really - none of those affect vanilla?
AoE looting affects two classes. two of the classes that already have it the best when it comes to farming mobs. Mages, and Paladins. It also has pvp implications where you used to have to keep your head on a swivel while looting and make sure no one was about to nuke you. with aoe loot that is no longer the case and changes the experience.
In Vanilla bag space was at a premium. if all of a sudden items stack to 200 like they do in live, bag space has a lot less meaning and farming is drastically changed. that is a huge impact.
Guild Banks i could totally live with.
Improved Graphics - are we talking new models vs old models? or just updating the graphics. Ive wanted old models back for years but sadly the ones we were offered via toggle in Warlords were subject to all sorts of issues. if Updated Models is in the game, and it is via a toggle, the old should be standard.
Dual Spec removes a gold sink from the game and is a very drastic change especially for hybrids.

Furthermore i should point out - that while you sweep away the concepts of making leveling easier, and keeping mounts at level 40, etc. THOSE CHANGES HAVE BEEN ASKED For by others. that should just show you how bad it is. between these two forums i have seen the following asked for.

LFD and LFR
Dungeons made easier with Quests associated inside the dungeon (much like live).
Leveling made easier.
Post Vanilla races and classes (literally all of them, including giving horde paladins and alliance shamans).
Removal of Atunements.
Removal of Class Quests.

And others.

[Akka]

notice how many subs the game gained in wrath (only a net + of 1 million)

0, actually.
TBC ended at 11,5 millions, and WotLK stayed at this level for its entire duration. The only (and last) bump was during the Cata-prepatch, and it was of 500 000 (11,5 to 12 millions).
So WotLK proper didn't had any growth at all.

[Keyblader]

I think leaving the new models able to be toggled on and off would be a great idea, I do think they should keep the ugly gear sets though, that added a lot of character imo.

[AceofH]

0, actually.
TBC ended at 11,5 millions, and WotLK stayed at this level for its entire duration. The only (and last) bump was during the Cata-prepatch, and it was of 500 000 (11,5 to 12 millions).
So WotLK proper didn't had any growth at all.

depends on the numbers you view. some show a bump of 1 million others show minimal. but i digress. compared to what Vanilla and BC brought in, the vaunted and beloved (sarcasm) Wrath didn't bring in crap despite being heralded for all its casual friendly changes (In an already casual friendly mmo).

[Jaylock]

Agreed. Those are stepping over a line. I could see an argument for AoE looting, it is one of those things that I personally feel indifferent about, but so many hardcore classic fans have argued well against it, so I generally oppose it.

I agree with that list too except for AoE Loot.

[sam86]

This is a different game then that u asking, not actual classic
Seriously imagine u go buy a peugeot 305 and the vendor keep asking u if u want to make it 'auto' or add button for glasses or basically any other feature, fuck no, i LOVE that car and if i can buy it i'd instantly buy the 1978 model without a doubt, i want the 1978 model as it was, i don't want with a feature that was introduced in the 80s, or the 90s, or even in 1979, i want the model that I LOVE the most, i learned driving since 10, i took it out many times without my parents knowing, drove everywhere, have very happy memories in it, and i even offered my parents to buy it from them when they decided to 'sell it' and they refused, and the fucking guy who bought it ruined it
And sadly that option doesn't exist for car, so i'd settle that vanilla wow be actually vanilla, not with TBC or Wrath features
That said I admit i'm not one of ppl who plan to focus on vanilla only

[Darththeo]

It is WoW Classic ... not WoW Vanilla ... there can be wiggle room, the "go play retail" crowd need to realize this isn't going to be 100% like Vanilla (and Blizzard has stated this very clearly in that they are considering balancing specs).

However, the crowd that want a ton of changes is also annoying. They aren't making this a Vanilla/Legion(orBFA) hybrid ... this is World of Warcraft Classic, it's not Vanilla and will not be nor is it Retail. Both sides of this argument need to realize this will NOT be what you think it will be.

[AceofH]

It is WoW Classic ... not WoW Vanilla ... there can be wiggle room, the "go play retail" crowd need to realize this isn't going to be 100% like Vanilla (and Blizzard has stated this very clearly in that they are considering balancing specs).

However, the crowd that want a ton of changes is also annoying. They aren't making this a Vanilla/Legion(orBFA) hybrid ... this is World of Warcraft Classic, it's not Vanilla and will not be nor is it Retail. Both sides of this argument need to realize this will NOT be what you think it will be.

classic and vanilla are used interchangeably by blizzard.

[sam86]

so you expect GMs to manually do loot mistake tickets? This used to be a regular thing, until they changed it in wrath.

i remember way back in tbc i had a ticket that stayed for '20 min' and it was considered too long, back then there was i think 9 million player? more than in WoD for sure, yet blizz customer service was INSANELY far superior to now, i wonder why
no really i wonder why, did they reduce at least over 80% of GMs who used to work? It doesn't make sense that they answer 9 million player way faster than the 3 million that they were in end of WoD era

[kail]

People are pissed that they were wrong or are against Vanilla servers, so now their salt continues to flow to make sure those who are playing it will do so miserably.

There are still many unanswered questions on how Classic will be played out, which patch it will start, and what (if any) changes will be made. There are also many different opinions on what is wanted in Classic.

And no, adding AoE loot doesn't suddenly turn Classic into Retail. That's just silly.

[AceofH]

People are pissed that they were wrong or are against Vanilla servers, so now their salt continues to flow to make sure those who are playing it will do so miserably.

There are still many unanswered questions on how Classic will be played out, which patch it will start, and what (if any) changes will be made. There are also many different opinions on what is wanted in Classic.

And no, adding AoE loot doesn't suddenly turn Classic into Retail. That's just silly.

no but let me ask you this. whose little change gets to get added to the game
one guy wants aoe looting
another wants transmog.
another wants dual spec
another wants leveling revamped.
another wants guild banks

do you see the issue?

[Zyky]

It's WoW Classic. Therefore it's presumed that what you want is CLASSIC. That means without LFD, without transmog, without new models, without aoe looting, without dual spec. That's the whole point.

There are certain features that any true vanilla player loved when they came out. Dual spec and quest trackers to ring a few bells. Spec changing was obnoxious and expensive for every player and it was unnecessary. Healers wanted to quest? Guess you either spend 4x longer doing the quests or you drop a huge chunk of gold to respec and then go back to healing spec. No healer enjoyed that, I can say that with 100% accuracy and certainty. In game quest tracker was a huge improvement to the game, everyone already used addons to do this and most of the time it became a matter of going to thottbot to find out the coordinates of a certain quest, which is not playing the game.

To clarify since people on mmo-c love to assume peoples opinions. I don't care if it comes out exactly like Vanilla was back in 2004 or if had QoL improvements that fixed many issues with the game like dual spec or quest tracking, I'll end up playing it regardless. But people also need to wake up and realize that many of the people crying for Vanilla servers were not people who actually played in 2004-2006. Most of them are private server fanboys from highly altered game files, even Nostalrius or Elysuim weren't authentic Vanilla, they fixed several bugs and did many changes to the files to fix problems.

[Regalbeast]

Sorry man, I have to disagree with you. Classic needs to stay Classic.

I do agree that Vanilla "snobs" are just about as annoying as they come.