What is the logic behind saying Piracy is stealing?

[Heave]

Well, if you look up the definition of stealing, it's basically 'taking another person's property without permission or legal right with no intention to return it'

Essentially, that's what piracy is - Taking someone's property without legal right (paying for it) and with no intention to return it. It doesn't necessarily mean the person has to physically LOSE what you took. You're essentially saying that stealing is only limited to any form of product that incurs recurring cost, is meant for personal (not business) loss and isn't harmful if you never had the intention to spend on the item in the first place.

Companies did invest money into games, shows, products too - and by pirating it, they lose out on finances that could potentially determine whether the company actually makes a loss that year or barely breaks even. Not every business and product is profiting large gains that their CEO drives around in a Ferrari and sips Malibu off his private island. Sure, you may say that if the product isn't available in your country, what's the harm; but face it, with the internet now, everything is available everywhere. So, basically if I can afford it and it's available in my country, I SHOULD pay for the same product that YOU get to enjoy for free?

If everyone thought the same way as you, then all companies would end up failing because who would pay for a company's product then, if all of us rather not have the intention of spending in the first place, and just pirate it. Well, if we live in a world by your logic, then say goodbye to Walking Dead and every other show or game you love because they'd all go bankrupt.

[haxartus]

Piracy just crushes the smaller developers. For the larger developers it's just a % loss that they can make up by increasing the price of the game, but for a smaller developer it makes the difference between creating something and not creating anything at all.

[caervek]

What is the logic behind saying Piracy is stealing?

There isn't any really, basically old people who don't understand how computers work make the laws and push the myth that piracy is stealing, hurts musicians/studios/etc and costs the industry money. Even though it was proven years ago to be a net gain for the industries.

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Piracy just crushes the smaller developers.

Ever heard of a small developer called Valve? They are a pretty big thing these days thanks to piracy.

[Elim Garak]

Piracy just crushes the lousy developers.

Fixed for reality check.

[Deleted]

So I don't really care about your opinion on whether piracy is evil or whatever, I am simply asking what people have in their heads when they say Piracy is Stealing.

Wow... yet another post about a topic that hasn't been circle-jerked to death ages ago.

Here is a take on pro "Piracy is Stealing": You are using services (gaming experience or tools like photoshop, listen to music, etc.) that you are supposed to pay for. You are robbing off the profit they would make by you using those legally.

[haxartus]

Fixed for reality check.

This forum continues to be delusional, I see...

[crewskater]

This forum continues to be delusional, I see...

I don't get posts like these. Are you actually trying to contribute to the conversation or just seeking attention?

[haxartus]

I don't get posts like these. Are you actually trying to contribute to the conversation or just seeking attention?

Responding in the same way I was responded to.

As I said, piracy destroys the smaller developers. There is no motivation to invest years of your life into something that is just going to be pirated.

So people just don't. They go to work for big corporations developing whatever software they are told to do, with no benefits outside of collecting a paycheck. They could have created their own development company and worked on whatever they like, but it is nearly impossible for a small scale development company to turn into profit due to piracy, at least not without going with millions and millions in debt.

[Elim Garak]

Responding in the same way I was responded to.

As I said, piracy destroys the smaller developers. There is no motivation to invest years of your life into something that is just going to be pirated.

So people just don't. They go to work for big corporations developing whatever software they are told to do, with no benefits outside of collecting a paycheck. They could have created their own development company and worked on whatever they like, but it is nearly impossible for a small scale development company to turn into profit due to piracy.

And yet indy games prosper, crowdfunding and all that. What's that reality you are living in again?

[haxartus]

And yet indy games prosper, crowdfunding and all that. What's that reality you are living in again?

Nothing in the indy game industry is prospering. It is, at best, growing slowly. The major studios are prospering, mostly because they can throw a few hundred million into the game and they can guarantee sales due to advertising and deals.

As I said, I'm tired of people who have never created anything in their life, telling the creators that whatever they created should be free. When people can't get the real value of their work, historically it doesn't work.

People say that, for example stealing an iPhone, and copying a game on the Internet, are totally different things. But 90% of the cost of the iPhone is due to intellectual labor for producing it and only 10% due to the manufacturing cost. The same intellectual labor that goes into creating a game as well, but somehow taking that intellectual labor for free in the case of the game is "OK", and in the case of the iPhone is not ok, while the majority of the work for creating both products is essentially very similar.

[Elim Garak]

Nothing in the indy game industry is prospering.

Everything about it is prospering. Lousy devs lose as they should.

As I said, I'm tired of people who have never created anything in their life, telling the creators that whatever they created should be free. When people can't get the real value of their work, historically it doesn't work.

As someone who created lots of stuff in my life, I don't mind people enjoying my creations for free, because I don't create to make profit. When it comes to money I get paid for my work.

People say that, for example stealing an iPhone, and copying a game on the Internet, are totally different things. But 90% of the cost of the iPhone is due to intellectual labor for producing it and only 10% due to the manufacturing cost.

That's bullshit. The first one maybe with a stretch (the only new thing about it was the use of fingers instead of a stylus and the "one button" design). The Xth one though? Getouttahere.

[Talsar]

So I don't really care about your opinion on whether piracy is evil or whatever, I am simply asking what people have in their heads when they say Piracy is Stealing.


When I steal your purse you lose something you bought and spent money on. When I steal your car, same shit. I am gaining something and you are losing something, which you will need to spend money on to get back/another. Thus I am causing you a loss.


If I am to pirate a TV show, they lose nothing. First of all, it's likely the Network that airs it doesn't air it in my country at all ( such as Walking Dead, for instance, I think it's US/Canada only. Anyhow it doesn't air in my country ).

So honestly if I pirate/torrent Walking Dead how could anyone accuse me of stealing when there's no option to get it?

Even if there was, I wasn't going to ever spend money on it anyway. So the company still loses nothing, because my potential money spent on their product goes from 0 to 0.

Then let's talk WoW private servers.

Vanilla, TBC, WOTLK haven't existed in 10 years on official servers. How would playing those constitute stealing? I would never spend money on Blizzard's post Cata products, how am I causing them a loss of money if I play Vanilla on some private server?

I am not.

I feel like a lot of people want to pat themselves on the back and tell themselves " I'm such a good person for spending money on this " when the reality is that while you do support the developers, people torrenting it would've likely never spent on it in the first place. At least they're getting some free publicity when said people make youtube videos or post in the games' forums, increasing traffic.

But had said torrenters never torrented that game, nothing would've changed. It's that " if no one hears a tree fall, does it really make sound? " thing.

I don't see the difference between one dude buying a show and then putting it on torrent for others to use and me inviting over 10 people to watch Game of Thrones on my cable TV. In both cases people watch it for free. What's the deal here?

Y'all ever heard of intellectual property?

That aside most piracy isn't theft, it's copyright infringement and is still immoral (and illegal). You can think that because no one is losing money or a physical object then the action can't be morally bad, but you would be 100% wrong. Sorry but stop trying to justify it, accept that it's an immoral thing to do, but you're gonna do it anyway.

If you don't like something a company has done then you have the right to stop paying them, and (if you think they have breached the law) you have the right to take them to court. You do not have the right (moral or legal right that is) to breach copyright law or commit intellectual property theft.

So yeah people saying piracy is theft are wrong, but you're still wrong to pirate/use private servers. They just happen to be using the wrong terminology.

[melodramocracy]

And yet indy games prosper, crowdfunding and all that. What's that reality you are living in again?

Sort of defeats your own argument.

[Elim Garak]

Sort of defeats your own argument.

How's that?

[melodramocracy]

How's that?

Seems like you're approving of both piracy and crowdfunding. Which is sort of a bizarre stance to take.

Maybe the solution is for anyone who seeks to at least break even on an artistic venture get crowdfunding first, or simply not bother doing it.

[Elim Garak]

Seems like you're approving of both piracy and crowdfunding. Which is sort of a bizarre stance to take.

How is it bizarre? I don't get it or maybe you don't get it?

[Lollis]

Well, if you look up the definition of stealing, it's basically 'taking another person's property without permission or legal right with no intention to return it'

Essentially, that's what piracy is - Taking someone's property without legal right (paying for it) and with no intention to return it. It doesn't necessarily mean the person has to physically LOSE what you took. You're essentially saying that stealing is only limited to any form of product that incurs recurring cost, is meant for personal (not business) loss and isn't harmful if you never had the intention to spend on the item in the first place.

Companies did invest money into games, shows, products too - and by pirating it, they lose out on finances that could potentially determine whether the company actually makes a loss that year or barely breaks even. Not every business and product is profiting large gains that their CEO drives around in a Ferrari and sips Malibu off his private island. Sure, you may say that if the product isn't available in your country, what's the harm; but face it, with the internet now, everything is available everywhere. So, basically if I can afford it and it's available in my country, I SHOULD pay for the same product that YOU get to enjoy for free?

If everyone thought the same way as you, then all companies would end up failing because who would pay for a company's product then, if all of us rather not have the intention of spending in the first place, and just pirate it. Well, if we live in a world by your logic, then say goodbye to Walking Dead and every other show or game you love because they'd all go bankrupt.

If you are going to define stealing as taking, you cannot just ignore the definition of taking.

To take something, is to remove something. Nothing is removed in piracy other than a 'potential' sale.
And just as we don't say it is genocide to throw away a used condom or take a contraceptive pill, we can also very fairly say that piracy isn't stealing.

[Tackhisis]

To take something, is to remove something. Nothing is removed in piracy other than a 'potential' sale.

The license the owner sells is removed from him by the pirate. There is no way for the owner to get it back.

[Katchii]

I'm just as tired of people, who have never created anything in their life, telling other people who do create how they should feel about someone who enjoys their creation for free.

This isn't about feels it's about laws, and there are laws against getting stuff for free that should be paid for. If the actual IP owner wanted people to get it for free they'd give it away, not copyright it and sell it.

[Elim Garak]

This isn't about feels it's about laws, and there are laws against getting stuff for free that should be paid for. If the actual IP owner wanted people to get it for free they'd give it away, not copyright it and sell it.

The actual IP owner is RARELY the author, most of the time it's a corporation. Fuck laws that favor corporations.