Saurfang and Nathanos' New models make me worry about Sylvanas.

[ello]

Sure doesn't benefit the Red Dragonflight, and by all rights the DKs should have been made to answer by Sylvanas, the Silver Hand and Wyrmrest unless the message that comes across is that these factions just let people trample all over them without reacting. But this is not a game where realistic consequences for every action is thought of so of course it will be forgotten. Same reason why everyone and their grandma called Garrosh out on his bullshit but Sylvanas doesn't get a slap on the wrist for her failures and fuckups. It would get in the way of the story.

They put up with it because it ultimately served Azeroth.

Though to be fair we haven't even seen those parties react. If Alexstraza shows up next expansion and doesn't say anything it's one thing, but we haven't seen that yet.

Not sure how it's trolling to state that Anduin, who's spent his life until now arguing for peace, launches an assault on the Undercity and fights on the frontlines himself.

Dude, i seriously question what you're thinking if you actually believe Anduin is a warmonger... He has a good reason to go after Undercity. Not everybody who goes to war is a warmonger.

Jeez, Legion really did a number on the perception of these factions. The Horde and Alliance are enemies. Always have been.

[Hugnomo]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already because there are already a lot of pages on this thread but here it goes.
Doesn't it seem weird that a slightly changed and reskinned human model could be used on Nathanos in a time where reskins and slightly changed models are being used to create Allied races? His short story told of a ritual that gave him a fresher body (his cousin's) through the valk'yrs. Isn't it possible that they'll use this premise to create a new undead allied race with Nathanos' appearance? And if he'd be the leader of this allied race, it could justify why he's going to be important in this expansion and worthy of a new model.

But I mean, regardless of this teory, I completely agree that his new model hints at things to come. I immediately thought "what's going to happen to the forsaken and sylvanas" the moment I saw his new model. Not only that, but the fact that they are introducing this intriguing Desolate Council into the story means the forsaken are in for story development.

Sylvanas' story is incomplete. Her main conflict is fear of death/extinction of her race. I think it'd be fitting for someone who is looking through every means to protect herself ends up sacrificing herself for her people and achieving ultimate redemption, her selfish journey culminating in a selfless act. I think it'd be cool if she became a Valk'yr herself and became the solution to the forsaken's extinction. She'd be a cool replacement to Helya. It could be great if the bargain she made with her came to bite her in the ass. Afterall, a bargain made in Helheim must be kept. Even Helya had to let us go (player character) against her will because she had made a bargain with us that she would only do it if we defeated her undead pet.

And it has potential storywise going further. The Shadowlands are still a mystery, and probably connected with the Void, Void Lords, Olds gods, etc. As a Valk'yr queen, she could be our ally in the shadowlands, our guide.

Personally, I like both the idea of a Val'kyr queen Sylvanas and an Undead human being the leader of undead humans (Nathanos as leader of the forsaken). I know he said he'd kill himself, but if Sylvanas' last request was for Nathanos to lead I think he would.

[ello]

Right, I'm sure they were sent there because someone didn't like their name.

After all, why would evil bastards receive eternal damnation?

Now you're just being obtuse. If you are claiming some deity decides what is "evil" and dictates where people go in the afterlife, you need to source that.

[pateuvasiliu]

Now you're just being obtuse. If you are claiming some deity decides what is "evil" and dictates where people go in the afterlife, you need to source that.

That's not how Occam's Razor works.

We know for a fact that incredibly evil people go to hell, namely Sylvanas and Arthas.

If you think that's random it's up to you to prove. The greater claim is on you. I make observations based on facts. You deny them. So have at it.

[Mehrunes]

Right. The Scourge that are a continent away with no way of getting across.

Ah, so your lore knowledge is so utterly shit that you don't know that Plaguelands exist. Or that there was Scourge all over Tirisfall and Silverpine. Or that going to Northrend to kill Arthas was one of the Forsaken's main motivations.

Southshore was a fisherman village with barely any military force and the Fields were just farmers in Vanilla. But keep digging.

The circle keeps spinning. Now you're again at the stage where you need to be reminded that those farmers formed a militia. Which fall under the definition of fucking combatants. Holy shit, you're one of the most deliberately obtuse people on the planet.

No, she is forcing undeath. She isn't asking them if they want to be undead. She's just not forcing them to keep living. But as I said when you're already Undead there isn't much choice between True Death ( where you could end up in Hell for all you know ) and keeping on living.

Oh noes, keeping on living, so evil. And how do you ask a corpse? She asks them the moment the concept of questions applies to them.

Not to mention she used the mindless state of fresh undead to make them kill their loved ones, anyway. No different from Arthas.

Yeah, let's ignore things like Arthas turning people into his mind slaves or a plethora of other differences that have been pointed to you hundreds of times. You wouldn't preserve your "intellectual honesty, not even once" look otherwise.

LOL.

Death camps didn't exist solely for killing, they also experimented on them and forced them to work. But keep trying to play semantics.

Then don't bring up incorrect terms because you can't make a post that's emotionally ridden, because apparently even you realize how shit your argument is without such nonsense to support it.

There was no war in Vanilla. Capturing soldiers would be just as bad as capturing civilians at that point.

And the goalposts keep on moving. And given lack of war, fighting in general was plenty bad. Didn't stop the Alliance from engaging in it. Including invading the nearby Alterac Valley.

Source on them having militia in Vanilla and attacking Forsaken?

This thing called Hillsbrad quests.

The people of hillsbrad weren't fighting anything.

It's magical coincidence then that the Forsaken had bounties for people of Hillsbrad that killed Forsaken then.

More like common sense but I don't expect you to be able to use it when you're excusing so much shit.

Given that common sense is a fallacy and you're still projecting your own subjective feels, lel.

Those people are faithful and for all they know undeath tainted their soul. Of course they don't want to die and go to hell. Not after they were forced to kill their own families ( just like Arthas made his minions ) in their fresly raised state.

Do give a source for that being the teaching of human faith. Or anyone killing their own families.

Excuse me? Are you denying it?

Are you Hitler is worse than someone who raised people as zombies knowing they'd attack their own families?

Jesus Christ.

Again, you're pulling the family bullshit out of your ass. Also, given how the only case of the during-combat necromancy that'd result in the resurrection frenzy was after the Alliance militia in Western Plaguelands broke a truce with the Forsaken in a surprise attack, the claim about morality here is even more ridiculous.

Garrosh never forced undeath on people and disliked killing civilians, something Sylvanas has no issue doing.

Theramore's survivors in SoO say hi.

Infracted.

[Syegfryed]

It's more like you live in some alternative world safety bubble because you are eternally triggered by the Horde, a multi-racial faction, being more about your muh Orcs anymore and because you can't handle a female character for shit. How comes Garrosh's tenure as Warchief wasn't just for marketing purposes? Or Vol'jin's? Just because Blizzard took the story in a direction that offends your great ancestors doesn't mean you have to construct a conspiracy theory around it.

oh boy, we are bringing up some feminism in here right? of course we need some strong and independent woman in position of power. Thats not to do with SJW agenda, of course is good lore behind.

And of course if i don't like Sylvanus as a character, or don't like her being warchief( because i could care less about her, i hate elves in general, apart from sylvanas -pre cata and Lorthemar) i must be a sexist bigot who can handle a female character, what a fucking legend

Just accept fam, there is no lore behind, no lore excuse, they just think would be cool to have, haha, oh boy, a Strong and independent woman as warchief. to hell with me who want the lore be back to normal without this nonsense

Shamans being unable to do something because elements find something unnatural doesn't mean shamanism itself is against it, especially if performed by some third party. Because I can indeed use logic.

Yeah so shamanism openly accept necromancy and all the death magic stuff, thats why they teach all shamans howto do that, oh wait, they don't

Chronicle bridged WoD and MU Horde in terms of backstory. And what does Shadowmoon Village not including Dark Shamanism have to do with anything? You said Shadowmoon isn't a part of the Horde. That is wrong. Also, the Dark Shamans using Void were Warsong, my bad.

i said the WoD Shadowmoon clan is not part of the horde, like you can see im a bigot orc fanboy, i know a bit about orcs and witch clan is in the horde or not.

Yeah, it's not like their very existence is a result of necromancy, nor have they ever practiced it.

drop a bit your sarcasm, cause you know they are not the same

im not saying they are or need to be against the forsaken, just the act of necromancy itself, again, you will not find they doing in front of the orgrimar bank

[ello]

That's not how Occam's Razor works.

We know for a fact that incredibly evil people go to hell, namely Sylvanas and Arthas.

If you think that's random it's up to you to prove. The greater claim is on you. I make observations based on facts. You deny them. So have at it.

I haven't claimed anything. As of right now, there is no overarching deity that judges people and decides where they go in the afterlife. If you say there is, you have to source it.

[Aucald]

That's not how Occam's Razor works.

We know for a fact that incredibly evil people go to hell, namely Sylvanas and Arthas.

If you think that's random it's up to you to prove. The greater claim is on you. I make observations based on facts. You deny them. So have at it.

We actually don't know that. Many incredibly evil people in the Warcraft universe persist as a ghosts or spirits in the Shadowlands, manifesting in the physical world quite often. Varo'then, the chief enforcer of Queen Azshara, persists as a ghost in Azshara even to this day. Arugal's ghost was active during WotLK in the Grizzly Hills. There are quite a number of evil individuals who persist as ghosts, shades, banshees, and revenants across the face of Azeroth.

[Oakshana]

More than likely, all this has to do with is that Sylvanas is making more of a shift to being the Warchief and Nathanos will become the acting racial leader to the Forsaken. Hence the new model.

[pateuvasiliu]

Ah, so your lore knowledge is so utterly shit that you don't know that Plaguelands exist. Or that there was Scourge all over Tirisfall and Silverpine. Or that going to Northrend to kill Arthas was one of the Forsaken's main motivations.

First of all, stop being so salty that people are calling out your first wet dream as evil. Talk like a normal person, you're being weird.

The Scourge haven't been a relevant threat in forever. And Sylvanas wasn't going to beat them with acid.

Now you're again at the stage where you need to be reminded that those farmers formed a militia. Which fall under the definition of fucking combatants. Holy shit, you're one of the most deliberately obtuse people on the planet.

They're not combatants just because they are equipped with an axe. They're farmers defending their lives from zombies that want to turn them into zombies. As long as you are the one attacking them they're doing self defence.

Oh noes, keeping on living, so evil. And how do you ask a corpse? She asks them the moment the concept of questions applies to them.

Except they're not living. Undead have no positive emotions. Their existence is a torment. She says this, they say this. She's just a hypocrite spreading her disease around because she's afraid to die.

Then don't bring up incorrect terms

I didn't. It's a death camp. They are there to die. It just so happens they die by disease instead of pistols.

You don't get to decide what the method of execution has to be in order for a place to be a death camp.

Stop trying to desperately wriggle your way out of this, you're not impressing me or anyone else, except for that guy who also had his first wet dream with Sylvanas and posts 5000 times a year ( woah that's some social life right there eh? )

And the goalposts keep on moving. And given lack of war, fighting in general was plenty bad. Didn't stop the Alliance from engaging in it. Including invading the nearby Alterac Valley.

What does the Alliance invading AV have to do with Forsaken nabbing humans from Hillsbrad to use in experiments?

Given that common sense is a fallacy

If you're a sociopath, maybe. You'd need to be one to think turning people into family eating zombies isn't evil.

Or anyone killing their own families.

Oh right, let's play semantics again. Sure, they weren't killing their blood kin. They were killing their fellow villagers. So much better.

Instead of mommy zombie killing me it's Bob the neighbor zombie killing me.

Holy fuck guys I was wrong all along Sylvanas is a wonderful human beign with very reasonable fans who are TOTALLY normal people in real life.

Also again, 10m+ victims vs resurrecting people isn't really comparable

Considering most would rather just die than be raised as a rotting zombie yes, you are right. It isn't really comparable. Sylvanas is far worse.

Infracted.

[ello]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already because there are already a lot of pages on this thread but here it goes.
Doesn't it seem weird that a slightly changed and reskinned human model could be used on Nathanos in a time where reskins and slightly changed models are being used to create Allied races? His short story told of a ritual that gave him a fresher body (his cousin's) through the valk'yrs. Isn't it possible that they'll use this premise to create a new undead allied race with Nathanos' appearance? And if he'd be the leader of this allied race, it could justify why he's going to be important in this expansion and worthy of a new model.

But I mean, regardless of this teory, I completely agree that his new model hints at things to come. I immediately thought "what's going to happen to the forsaken and sylvanas" the moment I saw his new model. Not only that, but the fact that they are introducing this intriguing Desolate Council into the story means the forsaken are in for story development.

Sylvanas' story is incomplete. Her main conflict is fear of death/extinction of her race. I think it'd be fitting for someone who is looking through every means to protect herself ends up sacrificing herself for her people and achieving ultimate redemption, her selfish journey culminating in a selfless act. I think it'd be cool if she became a Valk'yr herself and became the solution to the forsaken's extinction. She'd be a cool replacement to Helya. It could be great if the bargain she made with her came to bite her in the ass. Afterall, a bargain made in Helheim must be kept. Even Helya had to let us go (player character) against her will because she had made a bargain with us that she would only do it if we defeated her undead pet.

And it has potential storywise going further. The Shadowlands are still a mystery, and probably connected with the Void, Void Lords, Olds gods, etc. As a Valk'yr queen, she could be our ally in the shadowlands, our guide.

Personally, I like both the idea of a Val'kyr queen Sylvanas and an Undead human being the leader of undead humans (Nathanos as leader of the forsaken). I know he said he'd kill himself, but if Sylvanas' last request was for Nathanos to lead I think he would.

I could see Sylvanas becoming some sort of queen Val'kyr, or otherwise transcending. Sort of like a toned down version of the Kerrigan story. It may very well be the logical conclusion to her arc.

But I want her to be Warcheif for a while first, this sorta stuff needs to be built up and I'm tired of a new warchief everytime I log in l0l

[Syegfryed]

More than likely, all this has to do with is that Sylvanas is making more of a shift to being the Warchief and Nathanos will become the acting racial leader to the Forsaken. Hence the new model.

the warchief act like a racial leader at the same time, it never needed something like that, even when it was Vol'jin warchief it worked like the orc racial leader in blizzard mind.

[Hugnomo]

I could see Sylvanas becoming some sort of queen Val'kyr, or otherwise transcending. Sort of like a toned down version of the Kerrigan story. It may very well be the logical conclusion to her arc.

But I want her to be Warcheif for a while first, this sorta stuff needs to be built up and I'm tired of a new warchief everytime I log in l0l

Yeah I agree with you. Hope they take their time. Tired of changing warchief every other expansion.

[Oakshana]

the warchief act like a racial leader at the same time, it never needed something like that, even when it was Vol'jin warchief it worked like the orc racial leader in blizzard mind.

True. But the Warchief was always an Orc or Troll prior. Both in the same general vacinity (Durotan). Sylvanas is from Easter Kingdoms, far removed. And they already established in the preview of the new Novel than the people in Orgrimmar already feel unrest that she has spent no time there, and they later establish that the people of Undercity are already forming a council of their own to handle the internal runnings of the Forsaken since her responsibilities have become much broader than her people.

Stands to reason with her spending more time in Orgimmar, and being concerned with unrest in Undercity that she place someone in charge as her proxy while she's away. And Nathanos is probably the best choice. Given that, and the fact he has a larger role in the coming story, a new model makes sense.

[ello]

True. But the Warchief was always an Orc or Troll prior. Both in the same general vacinity (Durotan). Sylvanas is from Easter Kingdoms, far removed. And they already established in the preview of the new Novel than the people in Orgrimmar already feel unrest that she has spent no time there, and they later establish that the people of Undercity are already forming a council of their own to handle the internal runnings of the Forsaken since her responsibilities have become much broader than her people.

Stands to reason with her spending more time in Orgimmar, and being concerned with unrest in Undercity that she place someone in charge as her proxy while she's away. And Nathanos is probably the best choice. Given that, and the fact he has a larger role in the coming story, a new model makes sense.

The people in Undercity feel like she hasn't spent enough time there, hence the council. It actually specifically mentions that "the people of the horde seemed solidly with her". The Leadership on the otherhand(saurfang and baine), are understanbly suspicious.

[Oakshana]

The people in Undercity feel like she hasn't spent enough time there, hence the council. It actually specifically mentions that "the people of the horde seemed solidly with her". The Leadership on the otherhand(saurfang and baine), are understanbly suspicious.

I am thinking of the early conversation she has with Nathanos and specifically not wanting to be in Orgrimmar, and him telling her it was essentially necessary for her to spend time there, like it or not.

And I don't think she'll one hundred percent trust a council. In fact, I am pretty sure Nathanos is the ONLY one she fully trusts.

[Skyduke]

Don't know eh. Don't think anyone but Sylvanas actually wants to see more Forsaken.

Hell, I think most forsaken don't want any NEW forsaken, because in the end their existence is torment. That new council thing shows this.

They don't want to be destroyed, but they still keep their memories from being alive. They don't have any purpose. Can't have kids, are rotting...

I don't think any forsaken wishes being reborn as an undead to anyone living.

All in all, whatever tale they want to spin with Sylvanas, it's pretty obvious it's coming to an end. Her purpose is exhausted. Plot armor means she's NOT going to kill all humans and turn them into forsaken, or take Stormwind. She's been foiled over and over again while looking for methods to create more forsaken.

I don't really understand what people expect from Sylvanas. Or what do they think the next step is? She becomes the immortal and invincible queen of the forsaken and pwns everyone? I mean... You do get that's not going to happen right?

[Zulkhan]

ThIs TiMe FoR sUrE

Now that High Elves are guaranteed to never gonna happen, we clearly need to throw all of our chips on Sylvanas 100% dying in BfA because she's literally Hitler (it doesn't matter that we already dethroned a Warchief who was the closest Hitler reference we ever got in WoW already and is not gonna happen again).

It kills the living. She doesn't need to worry about the dead, because she's the one raising them.

Indeed man, that's why those Scourge undead in the Wrath Gate cinematic fell to the ground that way, they received big power boost from Forsaken blight and failed to handle the greatness.

To me it's clear that Sylvanas replaced Vol'jin because they couldn't really write the latter as a warmonger. Then again they seemingly turn Anduin into one so what do I know at this point.

The current conflict does not seem to depict any notable warmonger and Anduin sure as hell is not one. And Vol'jin was surely easier to push into war than Anduin, given his precedents in Ashran.

Because Orcs and Trolls are the core of the Horde and understand the shamanistic aspects of the Horde. Sylvanas doesn't, she has no respect for the dead.

Yeah like, show me a single instance where an Orc or Troll gave a damn about dead people who weren't their own, let alone about the enemy's dead? Because the last time a troll touched the argument he literally used Sylvanas' habit of raising Alliance as a mean to threaten the Alliance player himself.

what what a heck this have to do with what i said? jut comment necromancy is not a good thing in orc society because it is shamanism biased.

Not saying they need to hate on forsaken on pick up the pitchforks, just saying they obviously would not agree in resurrecting they family bodies as twisting creatures all over the place

You don't need shamanism to dislike that anyway. Lor'themar categorically asked to Sylvanas to not touch his people's dead and shamanism ain't even a thing among Blood Elves. He said that because he's against necromancy by principle? I say no, given how he gave literally zero fucks about that the moment Sylvanas asked "what about the Alliance's corpses?" and as I said already, Vol'jin shown zero qualms about exploiting that very matter to threaten the Alliance and the guy is a Shadow Hunter.

Those people are faithful and for all they know undeath tainted their soul. Of course they don't want to die and go to hell. Not after they were forced to kill their own families ( just like Arthas made his minions ) in their fresly raised state.

Yeah no. You dishonestly make it sound like these guys were deliberately sent to murder their own families because muhuhuhahah much evilz. The frenzied state is not intended to last long enough to achieve that anyway.

I guess you're trying to conveniently forget that those people are raised in the middle of a battlefield, not a nursery or orphanage filled with harmless and/or innocent people. If they are truly unlucky they may kill a friend or two at most (assuming they don't end up dying again before achieving that) but "muh they're forced to kill their families" is complete horseshit.

[Asotcha]

Sylvanas becoming the new Helya makes a whole lot of sense, she’d be bound to Helheim so blizzard could still pull her out if needed but it’d remove her from the current story and her position as warchief for the time being...

It’s also incredibly fitting.

That said if her replacement is Baine I’m so fucking out of the Horde. Vol’jin was bad but Baine is on a whole other level of nope.

My best case scenario is Lor’themar getting some continued development and then becoming warchief (And not getting deposed 1-2 expansions later).

This feels sewn together very well with how the spirits told Vol'jin he should make her warchief. There's been a lot of speculation that maybe he was tricked into thinking that, but maybe if the loa of death himself wanted this to happen for some reason he would expedite it by telling Vol'jin, knowing he'd be loyal enough to do it.

[Stooned]

For someone who claims to read most of the threads you apparently fail to see how quickly cancerous, reduntant and unoriginal that joke has become.

Subjectivity versus objectivity. If I find it funny, I'm going to use it. Go and fanboy somewhere else.