Why do Vereesa and Alleria hate their own people?

[Melsiren]

"I come bearing an offer from High King Anduin Wr--"

By the perspective of the Horde she is mouthpiece. She is speaking the agenda of the Human King, what the actual fuck is there not to understand about this?

Hell from even a neutral perspective? It's obvious she's pushing the agenda of Anduin.

"Figuratively and with negative connotations to indicate the role of a spokesperson or mass media venue that is used to perpetuate the views or agenda of another, as in "the newspaper became a mouthpiece for its owner's political views."

Negative =/= biased btw, unless you're one of those players who thinks if any of your heros is shown in negative light then it's just people being biased...

[cparle87]

From a lore standpoint, the PC is being put on a incredibly difficult position that kinda has to result on them having to step down as leader of their order. Either way, the PC involvement as leader of their order has to end because they just won't carry all that moving forward. The PC can't lead a neutral organization on times of inter-factional war.

In terms of the overall narrative, your character's choices don't impact the world, they can't. So the "champion's" decisions will always just be what Blizz needs them to be. With how things go the PC, we could say, is a pragmatist that understands the need of uniting in front a larger threat, but that ultimately is loyal to their faction.

It makes sense, but it just won't be the decision you would make (my main would have never lead a neutral organization but hey, gameplay)

My take on it was that the Horde, the Alliance, and the premier neutral organization, the Argent Crusade, were basically gutted at the Battle of the Broken Shore. Realizing they weren't the format needed to win the war, they temporarily released their elite forces (us) to join the pan-factional class halls that later merged into the Armies of Legionfall. As you said with Legion's ending those order halls are going to be dissolved as the two factions recall their forces to fight the other.

[Schattenlied]

a human destroyed their entire home,

No, an undead being mind controlled by an Orc (Ner'zhul) destroyed their home.

[cparle87]

What would there be to gain from talking with her people? So she can learn all about how they joined the orcs (who she hates) and trolls (who she also hates) and willingly took on demonic energies? (which she, boyo, also hates)

Meanwhile the Alliance is comprised of humans and dwarves who she's extensively fought alongside AND the remains of the uncorrupted high-elves, as well as the draenei who she's also been fighting alongside for thousands of years.

So let's see... it's races and powers that have shown her nothing but grief and destruction, versus races she's fought alongside for thousands of years.

Tough choice hmmm

She let go of her hate for the orcs back in BDP, and the Darkspears who are in the Horde are not even the same species of troll that her people have been fighting. It's like going "Hey I hate pandas cause grizzlies stole my food." Vereesa had no problem being civil and working with Vol'jin during Cata.

[Oneirophobia]

Why do their own people not hate the undead?

While not fond of the undead, Forsaken Sylvanas rode in on a white horse and prevented a second wave of Scourge from finishing the job. She then sent Forsaken troops to Silvermoon and together the two forces pushed the Scourge back into Deatholm and retook the Ghostlands. During all this Sylvanas set out on a political mission to get the Horde to accept the Blood Elves. While being oddly generous to her former people, the Forsaken assistance was not without a price: should the Blood Elves refuse to join the Horde, Sylvanas would pull the Forsaken aid out of Quel'thalas and ignore the elves as the Amani and Scourge set in to destroy Silvermoon once and for all. Meanwhile, the only Alliance who showed up to Silvermoon to assist the elves were dwarven spies and openly hostile night elf spies and saboteurs.

You could almost blame the night elves for thrusting Silvermoon into the arms of the Horde the same way they sort of did to the Nightborne. I would not be surprised (and would actually like it from a storyline point of view) if the night elves fully intended to keep the belves out of the Alliance. Although they recently allowed the Shen'drelar to assist the Alliance and rejoin them, the night elves reaaally do not approve of magic, and especially not over-indulgence of it.

All of this is covered in the BE starting zone and several short stories. So while the elves don't particularly like the undead, they accepted aid from them out of sheer necessity. That is sort of the Horde's whole thing, unlikely allies who may not necessarily like each other banding together for mutual survival.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

"I come bearing an offer from High King Anduin Wr--"

By the perspective of the Horde she is mouthpiece. She is speaking the agenda of the Human King, what the actual fuck is there not to understand about this?

Hell from even a neutral perspective? It's obvious she's pushing the agenda of Anduin.

Shall I be impressed by your usage of naughty words? should I be cowed by suck show of edginess?

Of course the horde can accuse her of being a mouthpiece, in fact, I would expect them to do so to devalue her position, and I actually I'm very happy about how Lor'themar dealt with the situation, putting into question who masters does she truly serve, with both Anduin and the Void. You go Lor'themar, you are more of a politician than you give yourself credit.

It might come to you as a surprise that we are not part of the game, and we experience the lore on an omniscient and detached way, so we can actually be objective, well, some of us try.

Alleria is pursuing her own agenda, we literally know what that agenda is -to separate the blood elves from the horde- Alleria has no intention of neutrality about this, she clearly just doesn't want the Blood Elves on the horde for so many reasons, but no, according to you and others- she's just pushing Anduin's agenda. This is the bias here, the lack of any will to understand that Alleria has her own reasons to support Anduin and the Alliance.

"Figuratively and with negative connotations to indicate the role of a spokesperson or mass media venue that is used to perpetuate the views or agenda of another, as in "the newspaper became a mouthpiece for its owner's political views."

Negative =/= biased btw, unless you're one of those players who thinks if any of your heros is shown in negative light then it's just people being biased...

The bias of the situation is that you believe that the negative interpretation of Alleria's motivations -in this case that she is so devoid of a personal motivation herself that she is acting as an alliance mouthpiece- is the correct one.

Cause you are aware this is the issue up for debate in here, right? We are discussing the root Alleria's motivation, not if she is right or wrong.

And the bias that I've been constantly pointing at is the dismissal of her motivations as nothing but alliance propaganda.

Assume for a second that I have no side, because I don't. My only concern here is discussing Alleria's characterization, and how, as per the thread's question, I contest the idea that Alleria hates the blood elves.

Are you caught up?

[The Stormbringer]

An undead destroyed their home and killed their sister. Human, orc, elf, troll, it doesn't matter once you become undead. Undead is undead, especially as a part of the Scourge under the command of the Lich King.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

My take on it was that the Horde, the Alliance, and the premier neutral organization, the Argent Crusade, were basically gutted at the Battle of the Broken Shore. Realizing they weren't the format needed to win the war, they temporarily released their elite forces (us) to join the pan-factional class halls that later merged into the Armies of Legionfall. As you said with Legion's ending those order halls are going to be dissolved as the two factions recall their forces to fight the other.

I think this is basically the frame of the situation; the assault on the broken shore gutted both the alliance and horde forces, as well as the argent crusade, the three major powers in a way, so it was up to the individuals to organize.

I don't think our factions formally released us, there was just chaos after the broken shore, so I can't say the factions realized they weren't cutting it. We were expected to follow our commanders on Stormheim, everything else we did with our Class was technically on the side. Of course I think our factions saw this and acted accordingly after the fact, allowing us to follow the Class campaign. But we were expected to eventually return to our station when called.

[Kithelle]

It's hard to understand why anyone would join the Horde at this point.

Because Sylvanas is hot? Just ask all the white knights here who defend here...reminds me of all those dumb girls who defended the Boston marathon bomber because he was to cute to be guilty.

You can murder innocents...but as long as you're hot it's okay.

- - - Updated - - -

An undead destroyed their home and killed their sister. Human, orc, elf, troll, it doesn't matter once you become undead. Undead is undead, especially as a part of the Scourge under the command of the Lich King.

But Arthas was Human...it's the Human race's fault he did what he did! Dont you know?

[The Stormbringer]

But Arthas was Human...it's the Human race's fault he did what he did...don't you know?

Hah, your sarcasm is on point, Excellion.

Damn, if only Arthas were hot like Sylvanas it would all be okay...

[Kithelle]

Hah, your sarcasm is on point, Excellion.

Damn, if only Arthas were hot like Sylvanas it would all be okay...

Yeah...one man does something bad and we blame the Human race...one race does horrible things and is lead by a horrible person and they pretend like she is as pure as snow...because she has big tits.

Maybe it's just a sexist thing...

[cparle87]

I think this is basically the frame of the situation; the assault on the broken shore gutted both the alliance and horde forces, as well as the argent crusade, the three major powers in a way, so it was up to the individuals to organize.

I don't think our factions formally released us, there was just chaos after the broken shore, so I can't say the factions realized they weren't cutting it. We were expected to follow our commanders on Stormheim, everything else we did with our Class was technically on the side. Of course I think our factions saw this and acted accordingly after the fact, allowing us to follow the Class campaign. But we were expected to eventually return to our station when called.

Yeah, we weren't really formally released. I mean we still fought for our faction in things like the warden towers and the Genn v Sylvanas stuff. Besides that the Horde and Alliance just sat back and let us do our thing. It wasn't like in MoP when we were deliberately sent out by our factions to find Anduin/conquer this new land.

[Melsiren]

Shall I be impressed by your usage of naughty words? should I be cowed by suck show of edginess?

Of course the horde can accuse her of being a mouthpiece, in fact, I would expect them to do so to devalue her position, and I actually I'm very happy about how Lor'themar dealt with the situation, putting into question who masters does she truly serve, with both Anduin and the Void. You go Lor'themar, you are more of a politician than you give yourself credit.

It might come to you as a surprise that we are not part of the game, and we experience the lore on an omniscient and detached way, so we can actually be objective, well, some of us try.

Alleria is pursuing her own agenda, we literally know what that agenda is -to separate the blood elves from the horde- Alleria has no intention of neutrality about this, she clearly just doesn't want the Blood Elves on the horde for so many reasons, but no, according to you and others- she's just pushing Anduin's agenda. This is the bias here, the lack of any will to understand that Alleria has her own reasons to support Anduin and the Alliance.



The bias of the situation is that you believe that the negative interpretation of Alleria's motivations -in this case that she is so devoid of a personal motivation herself that she is acting as an alliance mouthpiece- is the correct one.

Cause you are aware this is the issue up for debate in here, right? We are discussing the root Alleria's motivation, not if she is right or wrong.

And the bias that I've been constantly pointing at is the dismissal of her motivations as nothing but alliance propaganda.

Assume for a second that I have no side, because I don't. My only concern here is discussing Alleria's characterization, and how, as per the thread's question, I contest the idea that Alleria hates the blood elves.

Are you caught up?

You mistake me disputing your definition for not looking at the big picture.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mouthpiece

a : one that expresses or interprets another's views : spokesman

"I come bearing an offer from High King Anduin Wr--"


What ever, Allerias agenda is, she was passing on a message from Anduin in the moment. If her motivations her own she could have pitched Quel'thalas joining the Alliance completely differently, but no she took spokesman for the Alliance angle.

I don't think anyone was ever suggesting Alleria has no agenda of her own. I think at the end of the day it's more of a criticism of Blizzards writing, the Alleria that we know, the Alleria that loves Quel'thalas and her people would not have just come as some one puppet.

The obvious answer is Blizzard wants Horde players to dislike Alleria, they want her to seem like this poacher trying to steal the Blood elves from the Horde. However the character they picked was once a proud Quel'thalas nationalist, making the whole ordeal cringe-worthy at best, and another clear attempt to throw more fuel on the faction conflict.

So no excuse my "naughty and edginess" but the notion that Alleria is conveying herself as anything but Anduin's lap dog in that quote is bullshit.

[Talsar]

“But orcs and trolls killed their family!!!”

That’s true. Orcs killed their mom and their brother, the undead scourge destroyed their entire home, and killed their sister.

The truth is if Sylvanas survived the Scourge attack she would be a blood elf. She wasn’t off running with humans when Arthas showed up, she was defending her home like every other blood elf today. So then why don’t Vereesa and Alleria get over their petty grudges and join the Horde? Since they’ve both banged humans they surely know that not all humans are bad, just like how not all orcs and trolls are bad.

Fixt

I'm sure i don't need to remind you that the scourge fucked over the human kingdoms as well, and turned both Sylvanas and Arthas against their people and allies.

Nothing you've said suggests Alleria and Vereesa shouldn't be loyal to the alliance over the horde, and shouldn't encourage their kinsmen to share that loyalty.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Yeah, we weren't really formally released. I mean we still fought for our faction in things like the warden towers and the Genn v Sylvanas stuff. Besides that the Horde and Alliance just sat back and let us do our thing. It wasn't like in MoP when we were deliberately sent out by our factions to find Anduin/conquer this new land.

Basically yeah; the Horde and Alliance were just pretty hands off towards the whole fighting the legion thing ha!

You mistake me disputing your definition for not looking at the big picture.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mouthpiece

a : one that expresses or interprets another's views : spokesman

"I come bearing an offer from High King Anduin Wr--"


What ever, Allerias agenda is, she was passing on a message from Anduin in the moment. If her motivations her own she could have pitched Quel'thalas joining the Alliance completely differently, but no she took spokesman for the Alliance angle.

I don't think anyone was ever suggesting Alleria has no agenda of her own. I think at the end of the day it's more of a criticism of Blizzards writing, the Alleria that we know, the Alleria that loves Quel'thalas and her people would not have just come as some one puppet.

The obvious answer is Blizzard wants Horde players to dislike Alleria, they want her to seem like this poacher trying to steal the Blood elves from the Horde. However the character they picked was once a proud Quel'thalas nationalist, making the whole ordeal cringe-worthy at best, and another clear attempt to throw more fuel on the faction conflict.

So no excuse my "naughty and edginess" but the notion that Alleria is conveying herself as anything but Anduin's lap dog in that quote is bullshit.

I mean for starters lets be honest, the whole "Alleria is an alliance mouthpiece lapdog" rhetoric serves only, and purposefully so, to devalue Alleria's positions here. And given we are not pitching the faction conflict here to anyone and what brings us here is the exploration of Alleria's motivations and characterization, it has no place.

Remove yourself of the petty faction conflict posturing and try to look objectively at what Alleria is trying to accomplish; jumping right ahead to the "Alleria is acting as a puppet" read is frankly, a disingenuous attempt to remove the reasoning why she chose -or rather the writers- the rethoric she use.

Full truth talk; if you are just going to chalk every characterization, plot development, motivation, all of it, to "it's just bad writing" then why are you arguing about it. It's pointless. Sure, it's not Shakespeare, but if you really think there's just no cogency on Blizzard's writing, then just stop wasting your, and my own, time.

Alleria, due to her own biases, thought Anduin's offer would have been well received. It is made clear that she misjudged the appeal such offer would have, and we can actually call this a mistake on her part, yet not an entirely forseeable one, as we know, and I'm sure Alleria also knows by this point, that the Blood Elves were actually in talks to rejoin the alliance not long ago.

Leaving the horde is the right thing to do on Alleria's eyes, and that's because of her nationalism. Regardless of she is right or wrong, and irrelevant to it, she has a clear vision of what her people should be, and it's made clear that an alliance with the horde is anathema to that vision. It's just very weird that you pull the nationalism card , when for right or wrong, nationalism itself is the cause for many, many civil conflicts.

What her proposal tells us is that Alleria has no real respect for the horde and sees the Blood Elves alliance with it as misguided.

This whole exchange tells us less about Alleria -which is by no means acting outside of what could be expected of her, unless you are too biased because it's not what you wanted- and more about Lor'themar and his integrity, which honestly, I love him for it.

But yeah, let's just dismiss Alleria's characterization because we don't wike it, instead of, you know, trying to see what that characterization tells us since it is, well, fucking characterization.

[cparle87]

Basically yeah; the Horde and Alliance were just pretty hands off towards the whole fighting the legion thing ha!

I can't remember where I read this, but somewhere I read that those invasions we did prior to the Broken Shore and the xpac coming out never stopped. And that's what the Horde and Alliance rank and file have been doing this whole time.

[Magnagarde]

You don't save someone you hate from an ethereal nether-prince. You also don't ask someone to join your side if you hate them.

[Scathbais]

human dick makes you crazy, just look at varessa, alleria and jaina

Jaina had dragon dick actually

[Deleted]

Once upon a time there was an expansion called 'The Burning Crusade' and a group of people working on it, at a place called 'Blizzard' decided that two factions, the Horde and the Alliance needed new races as a feature. The problem however was that the Horde faction, a smelly and ugly faction, had a lot less players than the Alliance and thus led to a large imbalance the developers sorely needed to fix. So instead of giving the Blood Elves to the Alliance, they decided they would go to the Horde and the Alliance would get pandaren - quickly decided that was retarded and then decided on retconned eredar holy light people that worship giant space light batteries in a spaceship that make good hentaibait.

In all seriousness... This is actually why the blood elves are in the Horde. You're all trying to make sense of a decision that doesn't make sense, because Blizzard, needed to balance the faction pop. Its Maoist communists aligning with the The Republic of China in the 1960s.

[Skyduke]

Once upon a time there was an expansion called 'The Burning Crusade' and a group of people working on it, at a place called 'Blizzard' decided that two factions, the Horde and the Alliance needed new races as a feature. The problem however was that the Horde faction, a smelly and ugly faction, had a lot less players than the Alliance and thus led to a large imbalance the developers sorely needed to fix. So instead of giving the Blood Elves to the Alliance, they decided they would go to the Horde and the Alliance would get pandaren - quickly decided that was retarded and then decided on retconned eredar holy light people that worship giant space light batteries in a spaceship that make good hentaibait.

In all seriousness... This is actually why the blood elves are in the Horde. You're all trying to make sense of a decision that doesn't make sense, because Blizzard, needed to balance the faction pop. Its Maoist communists aligning with the The Republic of China in the 1960s.

Listen to him, this mans speaks the truth.

It's also the reason why you'll never see blue eyed high elves for the alliance, because then you can bet your ass the faction imbalance would come back, and come back HARD.