"go play retail then" is getting old

[Sorcath]

True that---then we could also have Auberdine back in Darkshore, and Ashenvale without the fire from that damn phased quest. Not to mention Thousand Needles in its glory.

Honestly I feel like the course lore had to take because it was hijacked by major characters Knaack introduced brought some of the worst changes in the game.

[anon5123]

Clearly playing Vanilla on DSL or Fiber isn't the true Vanilla experience, better find those 56.6 modems. Otherwise you're a retail scrub

Also, Blizzard better design the servers to have lots of lag, and go offline for 1-2 days at a time. That's the true vanilla experience, after all! Only retail scrubs want stable servers. True Vanilla Fans(TM) love servers that lag and crash all the time!

[Deleted]

No. It's really simple: Either you want to play Vanilla WoW, or you don't want to play Vanilla WoW. Wanting QoL changes doesn't make you a scrub or a legion baby, it just means you don't want what the people who campaigned for this to happen for years want.

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I don't know what that means.

EDIT: Oh, you're saying "Fucking Pokemon" towards ME. But yes i do. Everyone who campaigned for classic servers wants Vanilla WoW. If they didn't want Vanilla WoW, they wouldn't be campaigning for it.

It's like if I campaigned for a 63 sting ray, then someone came along and said "Yeah but only with wifi enabled cupholders and a rear camera also change the engine, it's really bad."

I know you have most likely missed it completely but the purists are vastly outnumbered as seen in blizzards own pool.

Your opinion just doesnt matter. Also pokemon - so there is that

[anon5123]

spec identity.

I see purists throw this term around just as much as Blizzard throws around "class fantasy". It's just a stupid appeal to emotion because you can't come up with a legitimate reason why dual spec is bad.

"ohhh muh spec identity, muh spec identity!!" forcing people to play one spec is not "spec identity". I don't see how dual spec takes away "spec identity" any more than the spell trainer respec that vanilla already has.

I mean, look at retail. You can freely change between all three of your specs at will....and yet, they're still distinct from each other. Their "spec identity" is not harmed in any way. So why would it be different in vanilla?

[Grusalugg]

I really hope Classic goes live with a version that make both sides unhappy...

[Projectmars]

In terms of MMO? I wouldn't count bot camping boss tags for Eastern style MMOs, or where you stand in a corner and farm 1 type of mob for xp for hours and hours, very hardcore. About the only "Hardcore" thing MMOs offered around that era was UO, where if you lost your books you couldn't even cast spells, and that could be looted by other players.

I would save casual for a lot of things, but even raiding in WoW was complicated. You guys are used to 10-25(max) raids, where if you just went to LFR before and meet the ilvl requirements, you're gravy. Back then it was 40 people PER raid, then later reduced. The gear you had to have required you have had raided other raids for months to get 40 other people gear. This was ALL without having a system to search for random people, limited open slots in raids because of previous reasons, limited roles because of specs, and having to build your public reputation up. Ranked ladders in PvP required job like hours.

What you mean is that it was mechanically easy. Because it was. Each class had a max of 3 abilities to play with. Specs were limited. Bosses didn't do all this crazy abilities. But don't blow smoke up peoples' asses here. I remember playing FFXI during it's prime, doing Dynamis shards on my Monk and my ONLY job in ALL raids was to stand on the outside ring, build Chi-, Chi-bomb the boss, drop group, rejoin group, repeat. Most bosses in most MMOs had a very limited mechanic. The only game I can think of with ability bloat is EQ, where you could solo on high end Bards but, like I said, Eastern styled MMOs weren't about maximizing all skills, so you just sat in a fucking corner for 12 years trying to get 1 level. Probably doing 1 buff, 3 debuffs, 1 tanking buff/debuff. Woo, talk about complicated.

I have to say, vanilla players view the game with rose tinted glasses, but you guys are salt above salt. Why are you guys so angry that you can't get what you want, despite it not being for you?

WoW had a lot of conveniences that weren’t in most MMOs at the time, plus death in an MMO was often a crippling setback costing a chunk of Exp (and/or a lot of youe items) and in a lot of cases required a long corpse run back. Compared to WoW’s zero death penalty (and later in Vanilla, more graveyards) So no, WoW was a lot more casual and accessible compared to EQ1, DAoC, ect. (Hell, even Runescape has a tougher death penalty than WoW ever has.)

And yes, asking for an authentic Classic experience and not getting an authentic Classic experience would make people salty. But maybe that’s because that is the whole point of all this.

[AceofH]

I indeed see something silly.

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Well both dont give an edge.

You dont get more loot if you aoe loot.
Dual spec means you save some gold. Mostly meaningless because classes have one viable spec either way. Or like mage you do x raid in fire and y raid as frost.

so looting faster and saving gold aren't advantages? hmmm. i must have missed somewhere where that wasn't the case.

[Asotcha]

Honestly I feel like the course lore had to take because it was hijacked by major characters Knaack introduced brought some of the worst changes in the game.

Really? what did Rhonin do besides spam that bullshit message in Dal for years and drive us nuts? I read Knaack's Stormrage book and I think one other but I can't really place it in my memory. I started reading with Christie Golden's book on the Lich King, so didn't really get into the older ones.

[AceofH]

It's pretty ignorant to assume that nobody quit from Vanilla's Launch to the end of Wrath- as to how many people Wrath 'brought in' there's no way for us to know.

Vanilla netted a postive 8 million after those who both started, and quit.
Burning Crusade netted a Positive 3 Million after those who started, continued, or quit.
Wrath netted a positive 1 million after those who started, continued, or quit.

any way you slice it, Wrath did less for wow then Vanilla and BC did in terms of overall subscription differential.

[AceofH]

Compared to the other MMOs at the time, yes. Classic was very casual.

and what does that make modern wow?

[Sorcath]

I know you have most likely missed it completely but the purists are vastly outnumbered as seen in blizzards own pool.

Your opinion just doesnt matter. Also pokemon - so there is that

Well it was monitored by Blizz, but the point stands that even among those willing to vote, most wanted minor QoL changes that wouldn't interfere with the mechanical or functionality of the game.

That is to say: Most wanted the ability to toggle updated graphics and Dual Spec. Majority did not want LFR/LFG.

It's just a stupid appeal to emotion because you can't come up with a legitimate reason why dual spec is bad.

I see this as well. An ambiguous statement to grasp for something they don't know how to explain, or just can't.

For me, it just wasn't in vanilla so I don't want that to be in classic. For others, it's because it adds time and unnecessary complexity to mechanics, which in turn added that flavor which is adored by a lot of vanilla players.

Wanted to change spec? Better ask for a portal or hearth, go to your class trainer, respec, get summoned by a Warlock(if it's up, this could all be going down while the raid is out repairing from their 2 hour raid progression) or fly out and walk/mount up to the instance, and run back where you were before.

[AceofH]

But it's not. You can't just say "don't like it? Go play BfA then bye" to each and every player that has interest to play your game, but finds some aspect encumbering. You have to think about the player that never played Classic. The guy that enjoys the type of game you do, grind and all, but maybe didn't start playing video games until 2014 (random year for random example). The outdated graphics alone could be enough to turn this player off of Classic servers because nobody wants to look at bad 2004 graphics 13 years later with what is available to us today at every corner.

We want as many people playing Classic as we can get right? We want a mighty community that can rival retail right? How do you expect to get that with this 'my way or the highway' attitude?

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You can keep the essence of Classic and never touch the actual gameplay experience for a player, all while improving UI, or a couple QoL changes. Suffering in a video game is only good if it is done the right way. Making the player suffer only for the sake of suffering will surely drive away your customers. Stating that WoW in 2005 was the absolute picture perfect moment in all of gaming that should not be altered in even the slightest sense or it's all ruined is just a ridiculous sentiment that should not be carried by any full-functioning adult.

Was Vanilla great? Hell yea it was I admit I loved the shit out of my time then. Was it perfect? Of course not. Then why not make it even better?

but aoe looting and dual spec do change gameplay.

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Now WoW is the Mona Lisa? C'mon man lol

considering the number of subs wow brought in compared to any other mmo?

[thunterman]

I want cheap / free respecs, definitely not dual spec though. I've made my argument several times, so I won't make it here. TL;DR point is, I suffered playing Vanilla as a healer years ago, I don't feel any pride in anything other than healing. If I have to grind twice as much, twice as long to avoid / afford respecs all the time, I won't bother playing it at all. If it's not cancer to play as a healer like it was, I'd be up for playing. I'm impartial, because regardless I'd play classic as a secondary , I have no problems with the current game, I greatly prefer it but it would be nice to play classic once in a while.

[anon5123]

I see this as well. An ambiguous statement to grasp for something they don't know how to explain, or just can't.

For me, it just wasn't in vanilla so I don't want that to be in classic. For others, it's because it adds time and unnecessary complexity to mechanics, which in turn added that flavor which is adored by a lot of vanilla players.

Wanted to change spec? Better ask for a portal or hearth, go to your class trainer, respec, get summoned by a Warlock(if it's up, this could all be going down while the raid is out repairing from their 2 hour raid progression) or fly out and walk/mount up to the instance, and run back where you were before.

I could definitely settle for dual spec only working in rest areas, or just greatly reducing respec costs like what a certain private server did, which starts with K. On that server, respec costs were reduced by 90%, so they capped out at 5 gold. I had a fucking blast there, being able to easily switch between specs on my Paladin, going Prot+Consecrate for tanking dungeons, and then back to Holy to heal. Or on my Mage, swapping back and forth between Frost and Fire (and even Arcane) while leveling, in order to test things out and see which spec works the best.

I just hate being constrained to one spec, after having dual spec for so many years in retail. Yes, yes, "muh authentic vanilla", I understand, and I too want a very good vanilla experience. I just don't believe that being forced to play one spec is what made vanilla fun.

[Shammyrock]

Vanilla netted a postive 8 million after those who both started, and quit.
Burning Crusade netted a Positive 3 Million after those who started, continued, or quit.
Wrath netted a positive 1 million after those who started, continued, or quit.

any way you slice it, Wrath did less for wow then Vanilla and BC did in terms of overall subscription differential.

Well yeah, but comparing an increase from 0 for a new product and an increase from 11m from an older product is dumb for various reasons

[Sorcath]

Really? what did Rhonin do besides spam that bullshit message in Dal for years and drive us nuts? I read Knaack's Stormrage book and I think one other but I can't really place it in my memory. I started reading with Christie Golden's book on the Lich King, so didn't really get into the older ones.

Rhonin was a half cracked brain child who somehow go Varessa Windrunner double pregnant, time traveled, was the leader of the Kirin Tor, was taught magic by the Blue Dragonflight, fought against the forces of Archimonde, saved almost every important lore character at some point or another, and yet dies to a fucking Mana bomb some chuckle nut half-hazardly lobs at Jaina(who is secretly WINKWINK in love with him). His character depth was about as deep as a petri dish.

[Projectmars]

and what does that make modern wow?

Far, far more casual.

[Maudib]

What is more impressive? Gaining the subs or being able to maintain them AND also have a net increase? People will try anything once, its getting them to take that 2nd bite where you become successful

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The standards of the market have changed dramatically since 2000.

If that were the case, the everyone would have quit WoW by now because it wasn't switched to the Crisis4 engine.

Because it doesn't have loot boxes. Because it isn't available (yet) on consoles.

No, the game changed a lot since early 2000's, which is why so many have wanted Vanilla to be released again. They changed it's core design little by little until it really doesn;t resemble WoW anymore except for the 12 hours of leveling. Some people like it.. some love it... but for the most part people jump in hoping for some resemblence of old wow only to leave after a few months.

Classic WoW has the chance to turn it all around... bringing back millions and jkeeping them playing for years to come.

[AceofH]

How is it an advantage if everybody is the same in this regard? Who has the advantage exactly?

his basic idea is to have quality of life features be a toggle. "aoe loot" is a toggle. "dual spec" is a toggle. don't like them? leave them turned off. i said i could be okay with quality of life features that don't give advantages being a toggle (old models vs new models, etc). but anything that gives an advantage should not be a toggle at all.

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What is more impressive? Gaining the subs or being able to maintain them AND also have a net increase? People will try anything once, its getting them to take that 2nd bite where you become successful

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The standards of the market have changed dramatically since 2000.

well considering classic wow only saw growth over its two years, and burning crusade did as well, but wrath stagnated largely over the course of its life?

i'll take the ones that only saw growth and not stagnation.

[AceofH]

Well yeah, but comparing an increase from 0 for a new product and an increase from 11m from an older product is dumb for various reasons

considering most mmos don't even break 2 million subs i'd say classic wow and bc both did very well for themselves.