1. #1521
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzl View Post
    Star Wars was never really a children's space opera. It turned into that somewhat after the first trilogy because Lucas was happy to capitalize on uncaptured markets.
    It was during Return of the Jedi. Ewoks got TWO solo movies...

    Scratch that, it was in 1978:



    Star Wars was originally about space wizards, evil knights and kidnapped princesses after all.
    Last edited by mmoc516e31a976; 2017-12-18 at 12:31 AM.

  2. #1522
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Luke wouldn't have been able to get there physically, that was the point of showing his x-wing sunken underwater, and he only made the decision to help AFTER Rey and Chewie had left in the Falcon... Which again serves to 'reprimand' Luke for being stubborn in his isolation...until Yoda reminds him. Had he left with Rey though, it wouldn't have been a surprise, and I kinda doubt he'd have stayed hidden if he had snuck on board. That kinda blocks him out of using force to destroy some of the walkers or their weapons, as that would just be a tad bit too god-mode, in my opinion.

    He shot his own leg out and paid the price. That's how I see it.

    If they wanted to do something differently, thinking deeper about it, they'd have to change his arc in the movie. Not by much, by dialing back his borderline agressive sequestering and such... But then, would it have worked better if it hadn't been a twist and more obvious? Would it have removed the attention from the main characters?

    To me, it was his 'sudden death' that was the most jarring thing about it, and had they smoothed it out more, either with some dialogue, or a bit of 'rest' time for the audience, it would've worked better. I really think Yoda should have been there at the end to just exchange a few words, Luke realizing his mistakes and such... Not just silence and poof.
    I'm sure we could think up a bullshit reason for that, you could have Luke lift the X-Wing out of the water and that would also be a great dramatic moment/callback.

    The movie already plays fast and loose with timelines and travel times. Rey's story picks up right after TFA and seems to take place over the course of a few days, while Poe says Finn "must have a thousand questions" when he comes out of the Bacta suit like he's been out a long time (and somehow the Resistance has been reduced to 400 people and a few ships in this time). Also the cruiser only has a few hours of fuel but somehow Finn and Rose have time to take a ship (or is it an escape pod? Jesus) halfway across the galaxy and have a whole side quest with a reasonable expectation of getting back on time. So I think we could excuse Luke arriving on not-Hoth in a reasonable timeframe (Rey also travels from the island to Kylo Ren's ship within the same timeframe).

    I still think him doing SOMETHING (doesn't have to be my suggestion, but something more satisfying) would fit in just fine with his plot arc. He's already decided to put his hermitage behind him and take a hand in events, and that "we are what they grow beyond", so maybe it's time to go out in a blaze of glory.

    Adding Yoda definitely would've been better, at least to give the audience some kind of confidence this was happening for a reason.
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  3. #1523
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    Except she actually did nothing but learning how to fly, speak alien languages and fixing the Falcon with computer simulators ever since she was ten. She was a scavenger on Jakku, a massive space battle graveyard.

    She even learned about Luke, Han and Chewie from the computers.
    She couldn't even scavenge enough to eat because the main guy was a scummy asshole, how is she going to afford using simulators and shit?

  4. #1524
    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    Anakin's "skills" were fast reflexes that let him pilot pod racers, something he grew into over time working on them for his owner.

    Luke spent his entire youth flying around Tatooine in his T-16. And his skills at flying didn't even come into play during the trench run, he flew in a straight line, was nearly killed by Vader before Han saved him, and then fired the torpedoes under Obi-Wan's force guidance.

    IE: Both of them had ample experience flying in their youths.

    Rey spent no time flying, no time talking to wookies, no time on the Millennium Falcon, no time using the force, no time using a lightsaber.

    And she instantly is an expert pilot, out-flying everyone else around (even Han in his own ship), instantly speaks wookie and every other language in the universe, instantly knows all the ins and outs of the Millennium Falcon, including Han's custom modification (knows more about them than Han), instantly can read people's minds, even another force user, instantly can force persuade other people, instantly can force pull things from dozens of feet away, instantly can stand toe to toe with a guy who literally spent years training to use a lightsaber, etc.

    Yeah those are totally the same thing, Anakin and Luke are such Mary Sues.
    Anakin also piloted an N-1 Starfighter for which he should have been to short. He build a Podracer from scratch at age 9, and a highly sophosticated protocol droid. I find that much less believable than an early 20es girl, who spent her life taking junk and ships apart, knowing a lot about the systems of a Starship that was considered junk when we got introduced to it in the first place. We also don't know if she had no experience, it is very well possible that she got to pilot the Falcon befor for that Junker she was working for. She seemed to at least be familiar with it. She knew that he installed a Fuel Pump, so it's reasonable to assume she had a certain level of access to the ship.

    And using the Force doesn't necessarily take training. It has always been about surrendering control befor the prequels introduced the shitty idea of midichlorians and decades of tutoring to become a Jedi. She surrendered to the Force. For all we know she can be the chosen one from the Legend, and not Anakin. Or an Incarnation of the Force. Since when does the Force follow any rules? She was losing to Ren, until she surrendered control, just like Luke, who would have probably missed his one in a million shot if he hadn't 'let go'. That's what the Force was originally abaout, a huge part of what made it wonderous and mythical. You have to believe in it, accept it. Not train for 50 years in a temple. Luke had barely any training. 3 hours with Obi Wan and a week with Yoda in a Swamp, doing jumping-jacks and lifting rocks, and he defended himself against Darth Vader, a fully fledged Sith and alleged chosen one.

    And as to language, since when did that follow any rules, either? How do people determine what droids say when they speak binary, especially when all of them sound differently? How do humans interpret the growling of wookies? It's never been explained, and it didn't need explaining. For all you know, a Wookie mercenary lived on Jakku. Use your imagination.

  5. #1525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Rey spent her entire youth surviving and learning to fight, and mechanical engineering while repairing and salvaging. She flew ...whatever that thing was, so she can evidently fly.
    She spent her youth riding a bike around, salvadging valuables, and getting into scruffs with her big stick. If she fought Kylo Ren with her big stick it might make more sense her being proficient with it, she didn't though, she fought him with a lightsaber.

    If you spend your whole life defending yourself with a staff and then suddenly pick up a sword, you are not going to be able to take that sword and defeat what is essentially a swordmaster with it.

  6. #1526
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Well it won an Oscar.

    I'll never let that go :P
    and your point with that being..?
    Oscar means something? Proves anything?
    For feth's sake, Moonlight won an Oscar, does that make Moonlight a good movie somehow?

  7. #1527
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    OK, I'm officially done. If you're saying this, you are completely oblivious to the actual inspirations for Star Wars. And most of the other stuff George Lucas was responsible for producing, writing, or directing.

    It was a throwback, retro movie to old adventure serials for children that played in cinema. Buck Rogers. Flash Gordon. These were CHILDREN'S films and were largely defined by the long, scrolling text and episodic nature where "Oh, I saw Episode 6, and then 8-12 and it was awesome, but I never got a chance to see episode 7! I wonder how he got to this point!"
    I do get what you're saying here, but Flash Gordon serials weren't really children's films. I think that like Star Wars, they were aimed at a general audience, though they were probably embraced by young viewers especially.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by A Perfect Storm View Post
    and your point with that being..?
    It was a joke.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    Ewoks got TWO solo movies...

    Scratch that, it was in 1978:

    We all AGREED never to speak of those things again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  8. #1528
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by frogger237 View Post
    She couldn't even scavenge enough to eat because the main guy was a scummy asshole, how is she going to afford using simulators and shit?
    How do you think she got to adulthood? She worked for Plutt all those years, until she refused to give him some parts that he wanted.

    She spent years studying schematics, data-tapes and memory cores she could find from the ships. And she flew countless types of spacecrafts on simulators.
    Last edited by mmoc516e31a976; 2017-12-18 at 12:47 AM.

  9. #1529
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I do get what you're saying here, but Flash Gordon serials weren't really children's films. I think that like Star Wars, they were aimed at a general audience, though they were probably embraced by young viewers especially.
    They absolutely were. Their origins were comics, even, before comics were cannibalized to be only catered to manchildren who refused to grow the fuck up. Buck Rogers, too.

    When I say a "children's" film, I don't mean 6 year olds. I guess you could put them as a "family picture." But largely, young audiences were a core target and have been since the beginning. A bombardment of toys were a thing even prior to the Ewoks - they only expanded as far as they did because of how studios make films more toyetic now, not because Star Wars in any way changed how it targeted focus groups.

    Again, Lucas and Hamill will both tell you that they're for kids.

    And I don't know why that's so fucking dirty to people...?

  10. #1530
    Quote Originally Posted by ohiostate124 View Post
    You said it yourself. Even Kylo didn’t destroy them. They were skilled enough but that’s not the point. The point is there were a bunch of them. Looking at a picture, there were atleast 8 of them.
    Why doesn't he Force pull their weapons out of their hands?

    Or maybe just use a mind trick and make them fight each other. Although presumably they aren't "weak-minded" enough for that.

    He could also Force-push them out of the room.

    But you know, we needed a fight scene, so...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  11. #1531
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    It was a joke.
    Accept my condolescences then, on the matter of my humble me being unable to provide the laughter.

  12. #1532
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Yes, he's being told to shut up and not act. The extremely arrogant person who has difficulty acquiring and dealing with patience and wants to immediately do whatever the hell he wants needs to learn to shut up, not act, and operate on a little bit of faith because he isn't in charge whether he likes it or not.

    That was the point. You can say you don't like that direction, and that is your prerogative. Nothing is going to resonate with anyone.

    But to say it's some kind of hideous oversight is just silly. The boisterous guy everyone loves needed a time out, because even if we all like Poe and appreciate that he's a hotshot flyboy, sometimes being a hotshot flyboy is fucking stupid.
    Since when is Poe arrogant? And his actions aren't reckless, under the circumstances they make perfect sense. Even in the previous scene, his attack on the dreadnought is ultimately successful. Leia chides him for disobeying orders because it cost them their bombers and those pilots' lives - but shortly after that the First Order destroys the cruiser's hangar bay with a fighter attack and their starfighters are all destroyed, along with apparently most of the pilots. So had he obeyed orders they would've lost them all anyway, and the First Order would have the Dreadnought available to them not only in the battle at the start but even potentially in the final battle on salty not-Hoth. He made the right call.

    If the movie wants to set up that he's reckless and arrogant and his actions make the situation worse, well yes I think that's a shitty direction to take his character but more importantly it's not demonstrated in the film.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  13. #1533
    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    She spent her youth riding a bike around, salvadging valuables, and getting into scruffs with her big stick. If she fought Kylo Ren with her big stick it might make more sense her being proficient with it, she didn't though, she fought him with a lightsaber.

    If you spend your whole life defending yourself with a staff and then suddenly pick up a sword, you are not going to be able to take that sword and defeat what is essentially a swordmaster with it.
    That stick would've been a toothpick by the end...that would make no effing sense, and she'd have a death-wish if she tried. She can easily have learned to use other, shorter sticks for defense as well, not just a long one...

  14. #1534
    Quote Originally Posted by A Perfect Storm View Post
    Accept my condolescences then, on the matter of my humble me being unable to provide the laughter.
    Who pissed in your cornflakes this morning?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  15. #1535
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I'm sure we could think up a bullshit reason for that, you could have Luke lift the X-Wing out of the water and that would also be a great dramatic moment/callback.

    The movie already plays fast and loose with timelines and travel times. Rey's story picks up right after TFA and seems to take place over the course of a few days, while Poe says Finn "must have a thousand questions" when he comes out of the Bacta suit like he's been out a long time (and somehow the Resistance has been reduced to 400 people and a few ships in this time). Also the cruiser only has a few hours of fuel but somehow Finn and Rose have time to take a ship (or is it an escape pod? Jesus) halfway across the galaxy and have a whole side quest with a reasonable expectation of getting back on time. So I think we could excuse Luke arriving on not-Hoth in a reasonable timeframe (Rey also travels from the island to Kylo Ren's ship within the same timeframe).

    I still think him doing SOMETHING (doesn't have to be my suggestion, but something more satisfying) would fit in just fine with his plot arc. He's already decided to put his hermitage behind him and take a hand in events, and that "we are what they grow beyond", so maybe it's time to go out in a blaze of glory.

    Adding Yoda definitely would've been better, at least to give the audience some kind of confidence this was happening for a reason.
    Well, unless you can remove many years worth of water damage from it, I don't think that plan would fly. But yeah, I don't think it would've fared much better unless they had done the entire Luke arc a bit differently.

    For me though, as I mentioned, the biggest issue was that his death came so soon after a really awesome scene. A deep low right after such a high is just emotional whiplash, and it's what soured it the most, from my point of view, hence the smoothing out with Yoda, example-wise, and then he fades. At least clueing the audience in before it happens. That could have redeemed the whole thing, if he had gotten out verbally, that he realized he failed, and almost failed to act at the last moment as well, but he did, and it gave his sister and the rebels the breathing room they needed to get out of dodge, but his failure cost him a higher price than if he hadn't helped at all.

    With the attitude he had on the island, him flipping on a coin would also feel a bit off, because then it would've felt like his exile was just him being overly moody, not like he actually felt like he had disappointed so badly that some scrappy young upstart, with no real experience at being a hero like himself, could change it.

    So...ugh. At this point, I'll accept the movie as it is tbh, and hope they release an extended cut and patch this scene up in particular. Most likely not...but yeh... It's one of the biggest issues with the movie after a closer inspection, but it won't make me change my rating of it, as what was good, was really solid.

  16. #1536
    Quote Originally Posted by joebob42 View Post
    The Last Jedi was so much worse than the prequels that I am waiting to see Patton Oswalt shred it in epic fashion.
    He was already at the premiere and liked it. He already commented on the "deep canon" reference that would make die-hards "lose their shit" although I'm not really sure what that may've referred to other than Yoda.

    But hey, I know what I'm going to hear from people - I guess he and Hamill are both Disney shills now that they aren't validating people's opinions that they wanted to hear. Hamill was uncertain and initially against Luke's character direction. Now he's praising Johnson on Twitter and seems to be energetically behind it, to the point where "I would want to be on Episode IX's catering just so I could hang out."

    It couldn't possibly be that over time working on a project, someone came around to a certain role and position. It couldn't be that someone's protectiveness of their character can interfere with objectivity. Nope, they're SHILLS, dammit!

    Only semi-related, but while Disney absolutely uses their massive influence to pay off CERTAIN reviewers, and certainly ones from companies they have partial ownership/influence with, the similar idea that they paid off 277 positive reviews, especially ones from people who disliked TFA or Rogue One, is fucking hysterical.

    Since when is Poe arrogant? And his actions aren't reckless, under the circumstances they make perfect sense. Even in the previous scene, his attack on the dreadnought is ultimately successful. Leia chides him for disobeying orders because it cost them their bombers and those pilots' lives - but shortly after that the First Order destroys the cruiser's hangar bay with a fighter attack and their starfighters are all destroyed, along with apparently most of the pilots. So had he obeyed orders they would've lost them all anyway, and the First Order would have the Dreadnought available to them not only in the battle at the start but even potentially in the final battle on salty not-Hoth. He made the right call.

    If the movie wants to set up that he's reckless and arrogant and his actions make the situation worse, well yes I think that's a shitty direction to take his character but more importantly it's not demonstrated in the film.
    It's about someone's greater significance in an upcoming conflict. Sure, the hangar got attacked. But nobody could've made that prediction in the first place, and more importantly, the point is that "If I can't rely on this person to do as I ask of him, there is no guarantee that they can't also make the same decision when it WILL go wrong." It was a stupid, risky thing to do, many people died, and ultimately the only reason you're defending it is due to something that happened later which was pure happenstance and at the mercy of the narrative.

    If you think Poe's direction is bad...well, I'm not really sure what to say, other than I guess enjoy a character with no discernible traits beyond being a good pilot and being jovial with Finn and his droid? It's called an arc, people. Finn got one. Rey got one. Poe had nothing in TFA because he was originally meant to die. I liked him, but that kind of static nature can't sustain over a three-film story.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2017-12-18 at 12:55 AM.

  17. #1537
    Titan I Push Buttons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    That stick would've been a toothpick by the end...that would make no effing sense, and she'd have a death-wish if she tried. She can easily have learned to use other, shorter sticks for defense as well, not just a long one...
    Yeah and I am not saying she should have used it, I am complaining about how she conjured skill with a lightsaber out of thin Mary Sue air and it being stupid.

    I was merely pointing out that if she had used a staff, her weapon of choice, it would have actually made sense for her to be proficient with it.

  18. #1538
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    For me though, as I mentioned, the biggest issue was that his death came so soon after a really awesome scene. A deep low right after such a high is just emotional whiplash, and it's what soured it the most, from my point of view, hence the smoothing out with Yoda, example-wise, and then he fades. At least clueing the audience in before it happens.
    Yeah and honestly that's the biggest problem, the movie makes some decisions so weird it is in great danger of losing the faith of the audience. Like, they might start to wonder if the writer has any idea what they're doing.

    I want to hope that an extended cut will fix it, but I doubt it. I saw a clip with the director where he said that there was a three hour rough cut, but the theatrical version is the true cut of the film he's happy with. So I doubt it'd do much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  19. #1539
    Quote Originally Posted by joebob42 View Post
    Are you sure you saw the originals, because these movies were nothing like them. These movies make a joke out of Star Wars. You only need to look at what Jar Jar Abrams did to Star Trek to understand how little he cares for the fans. The originals were not filled with slapstick comedy. Han's interaction on the Death Star comm was not comedy. It was unscripted ad lib of a person who really had no idea what to say. Mark Hamill performed very well because he is a good actor. He already said the material was shit, but he did it for the fans instead of backing out.

    The Last Jedi was so much worse than the prequels that I am waiting to see Patton Oswalt shred it in epic fashion.
    Poe is not Han Solo. If he was, you'd call him a cheap rip-off of Han Solo. You would never have been satisfied with anything other than your own headcanon. There was cheesy humor in the old SW movies. I wil at least give that the porgs were fucking awful, and BB8 is a bit too mired in just being comedy relief. The new movies ain't flawless, and nobody's saying that, at all. But they're not nearly as shit as jaded fossils make it out to be.

    And prove that is what Hamill said. 'Cus I haven't heard it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    Yeah and I am not saying she should have used it, I am complaining about how she conjured skill with a lightsaber out of thin Mary Sue air and it being stupid.

    I was merely pointing out that if she had used a staff, her weapon of choice, it would have actually made sense for her to be proficient with it.
    She didn't. She used it as she felt instinctually, and logically as if it was a short stick. She has some basic combat skills, and they were just enough for the situation she was in. Kylo was not trying to kill her, he wanted to recruit her, and he was fairly solidly injured before the fight, and had to deal with Finn, who truly had no skills to fight him.

  20. #1540
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Yeah and honestly that's the biggest problem, the movie makes some decisions so weird it is in great danger of losing the faith of the audience. Like, they might start to wonder if the writer has any idea what they're doing.

    I want to hope that an extended cut will fix it, but I doubt it. I saw a clip with the director where he said that there was a three hour rough cut, but the theatrical version is the true cut of the film he's happy with. So I doubt it'd do much.
    Well, it'd only have to be an extended cut, not a director's cut, and with enough feedback directed at Disney, it might happen. One can hope...

    Quote Originally Posted by joebob42 View Post
    They paid Hamill to stop dissenting. Also, Disney didn't have to pay off those critics. They easily wield the ability to ban certain individuals from any further advanced screenings if they don't like what they say. Read the fan reviews. It was 57% yesterday, and it's down to 56% today. I give the film a solid zero stars.
    ...keep grasping at straws. You prove nothing, you can be dismissed with nothing.

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