[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Krigaren]

Trained? You are right. But force sensitive? The ending scene showed that there are more force users out there ala the child who uses the force on the broom.

The force is in everything and everyone. Some people can use it, some people can't. It seems that they're trying to imply that the force has some mechanism of zero-sum, where the more people use it the most diluted it is for everyone else, but that would apply to both Ben and Rey. So there may be millions of force sensitive creatures out there who can use basic powers, but what's left is the predominant amount of power that's taking the form of Rey's light, and Ben's dark.

Pure speculation on my part, but it seems to fit in with the lore we're being shown. That would explain how Anakin is The Chosen One to bring balance to the force. Yoda says in AoTC that they could be interpreting the prophecy completely wrong, and Anakin's turn to the dark side and wiping out almost all of the light could have been the manifestation of that misunderstanding. That the "balance" wasn't going to come in the form of wiping out the dark and only leaving the light, but to cull the Jedi which had thrown the balance completely off with the amount of light users. At the end, all that was left was Luke, and he was more "grey" since he had utilized both the light and the dark and found a balance in between.

[Katchii]

Honestly probably the worst Star Wars film, no joke. I think I'd rather rewatch Phantom Menace than see this shit again.

That's a little harsh. Nothing compares to the terrible awfulness of Episode I when it comes to Star Wars bad. The only thing Episode I had that I see as a positive thing was the lightsaber battles.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Star Wars was created by George Lucas. This trilogy is fan fiction. Rogue One wasn't fan service. It told a deeper story about an event we already knew about. TFA and TLJ were the fan service.

You get out of here. People like you are what ruined Star Wars and forced Lucas to hand it over to the "white slavers" at Disney (his words, not mine).

Ya you don’t know what fan fiction is unless you think the whole eu was fan fiction when it was made soly because Lucas didn’t make every single story.

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Anything created by George Lucas is Star Wars, love it or hate it. The people that pressured him to hand it over are ridiculous. You'd never hear people upset with WoW to hand it over to another studio because they'd do it better. WoW is a Blizzard game. If you stop liking it, move on. That's the way people should have taken the prequels. I wish George hadn't given in to them, but one person can only take so many death threats over fiction, so I understand.

You didn’t awnser his question like at all.

[Nefarious Tea]

It's not vice admiral's fault. It's Poe's fault. She did everything right, she knew Poe was a hazard, so she kept him in the dark until it was impossible to hide the plan (he discovered the transports getting fueled up) and at that moment the plan was ready to go so him knowing would not change anything. The plan was solid. Poe ruined it by sending Finn and Rose to break the tracker and thus informing the shady code-breaker of their plan so he in turn used it to get a deal with first order to get out of the pickle.

It is ultimately Poe's fault, Finn and Rose couldn't help it as they are not very bright individuals. Had he fell in line and obeyed the orders - Rebels would've escaped in greater numbers, lost all their capital ships but most of the people would've survived.

But on the other hand. First Order still would've had its flagship, Phasma and a lot more troops and machinery. So it's even, I guess.

The problem here is that Poe sends Finn and Rose to try and find a slicer like ten minutes into the movie. If Poe had just been told THEN that there was actually a plan - even if Holdo had been mum on the specifics because Poe was being a bitch - the Resistance would have been able to both get all their people onto Krait AND still kamikaze destroy Snoke's fleet. Amilyn Holdo not telling Poe so he had to make his own plan which backfired damned hundreds of people.

[Krigaren]

The problem here is that Poe sends Finn and Rose to try and find a slicer like ten minutes into the movie. If Poe had just been told THEN that there was actually a plan - even if Holdo had been mum on the specifics because Poe was being a bitch - the Resistance would have been able to both get all their people onto Krait AND still kamikaze destroy Snoke's fleet. Amilyn Holdo not telling Poe so he had to make his own plan which backfired damned hundreds of people.

I need to see the movie again, but when did Poe come up with the slicer plan? I want to say I remember it was right after Rose and Finn had their moment, and not after Poe's confrontation with Holdo.

It's the confrontation on the bridge that bothered me. Poe, in front of everyone, called Holdo out and demanded to know that she had a plan - any plan - to get out of the mess they were in, and she didn't. In front of everyone, she said she had no plan other than to abandon ship. That's what started the mutinty, and ideally Poe and Holdo would have trusted each other enough to share the information that both had and work together - but that wasn't the narrative Johnson was reaching for.

[Nefarious Tea]

Yeah, for it to basically just lop a wing off of that ship and not cause the entire ship (let alone other nearby ships/objects) to explode seemed a bit weird. I'm not Ph.D in physics, though.

I did the math for you a few days ago (it's honestly pretty basic physics):

The lightspeed kamikaze by Amilyn Holdo was great, but it should have done WAY more damage. I get that Rey, and separately Rose, BB-8, and Fin, were on Snoke's ship and had to survive but they could have changed the timing of the film to get them out first. The Galaxy takes approximately a week to cross in hyperspace. Being a spiral galaxy, it's probably around 100,000 light years across, like ours is (Andromeda is ~120,000). Hyperspace travel is thus around 0.16 lightyears per second, or 595 light years per hour. The Raddus is probably 2-3 km long had I to guess, so approximately twice an Imperial star destroyer. Star destroyers weigh somewhere in the neighborhood of 25-50 MILLION tons. If force is mass times acceleration, and impact force is mass times instant deceleration, that's an impact force of roughly... 70-100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 N/m^2, or SEVENTY TO ONE HUNDRED OCTILLION NEWTONS PER METER SQUARED. The TL;DR is that the entire first order fleet should have been obliterated instantly in essentially a supernova. And honestly that should have been the end of the film, Holdo sacrificing herself and taking down the First order fleet with her, allowing the transports to get away. Roll credits.

[Deleted]

At the end, all that was left was Luke, and he was more "grey" since he had utilized both the light and the dark and found a balance in between.

That's why, at the end of the day, Luke was right about finishing up with the Jedi Order. We know that the first Sith were Jedi, then we saw powerful Jedi becoming Sith in the prequel, the Force was unbalanced. The next Force Order needs to be about balance.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's why, at the end of the day, Luke was right about finishing up with the Jedi Order. We know that the first Sith were Jedi, then we saw powerful Jedi becoming Sith in the prequel, the Force was unbalanced. The next Force Order needs to be about balance.

I don’t know what’s cannon at his point with the first sith and all that jazz but wernt the sith around before revens turn in the old cannon?

[Deleted]

I don’t know what’s cannon at his point with the first sith and all that jazz but wernt the sith around before revens turn in the old cannon?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hundred-Year_Darkness

Some of the Kotor lore was adapted (like Malachor).

[Nefarious Tea]

There are force sensitives, but without training they cannot harness the Force like a Jedi or Sith did. The Rule of two implies the untapped collective power of the force is what gave them their influence. Much akin to the idea if too many people are on the line, interference is going to happen and cause the connection to be weaker.

Too many jedi and sith tapping into the force weakens it as a whole. The less being able to directly use it, the more power one individual can utilize from it.

You're right. They're not able to harness the Force. They're not able to control it. Force-sensitive people in Star Wars, without training, are much like untrained wizards in Harry Potter: the raw power is there but without the will and discipline to guide it, only bad things happen.

The Rule of Two also doesn't mean anything close to that. The Rule of Two is literally "Always two there are; no more, no less. A master and an apprentice. One to embody the power, and one to crave it." Darth Bane created it so that the Sith would stop infighting and weakening themselves militarily and politically, not literally weakening their Force powers. That's the only reason Palpatine could plot against the Republic for 70+ years; he didn't have to worry about getting backstabbed by a thousand other Sith.

[Deleted]

You're right. They're not able to harness the Force. They're not able to control it. Force-sensitive people in Star Wars, without training, are much like untrained wizards in Harry Potter: the raw power is there but without the will and discipline to guide it, only bad things happen.

The Rule of Two also doesn't mean anything close to that. The Rule of Two is literally "Always two there are; no more, no less. A master and an apprentice. One to embody the power, and one to crave it." Darth Bane created it so that the Sith would stop infighting and weakening themselves militarily and politically, not literally weakening their Force powers. That's the only reason Palpatine could plot against the Republic for 70+ years; he didn't have to worry about getting backstabbed by a thousand other Sith.

And yet, Palpatine himself broke the Rule of Two, by taking apprentices when Plagueis was still alive.

[Nefarious Tea]

I need to see the movie again, but when did Poe come up with the slicer plan? I want to say I remember it was right after Rose and Finn had their moment, and not after Poe's confrontation with Holdo.

It's the confrontation on the bridge that bothered me. Poe, in front of everyone, called Holdo out and demanded to know that she had a plan - any plan - to get out of the mess they were in, and she didn't. In front of everyone, she said she had no plan other than to abandon ship. That's what started the mutinty, and ideally Poe and Holdo would have trusted each other enough to share the information that both had and work together - but that wasn't the narrative Johnson was reaching for.

That's exactly when it is. Holdo tells Poe off by quoting Leia's hope/sun aphorism, then Finn and Rose go to Poe (because Poe is Finn's friend) and are like "WE HAVE AN IDEA!" It's more than ten minutes into the film, I was being hyperbolic. It's right after Kylo's TIE escort destroys the Raddus's bridge.

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And yet, Palpatine himself broke the Rule of Two, by taking apprentices when Plagueis was still alive.

Did he? I never read the Plagueis book or anything... I thought his only apprentices were Dooku and Vader?

[Halyon]

I am not making an argument i am saying Rey knows and can do anything.

She failed to convince Luke, she needed outside interventions and assistance to keep even with Kylo in the first movie while he wasn't even looking to kill her. Yes, she's the heroine, of course she's not gonna be some unskilled pleb, but she didn't become skilled over night, it took time.

She's not a Mary Sue. If she is, so was Anakin and Luke. Both of them were natural talents when it came to the force, hell, Anakin was tauted as 'the chosen one'. So why's it an issue for Rey to be, AND be a nobody, when this has been established as a thing years ago in the EU.

[Deleted]

I can't remember the last time I saw such a piss poor movie. Halfway through I was just waiting for it to end.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hundred-Year_Darkness

Some of the Kotor lore was adapted (like Malachor).

Ah I knew some of it had to be cannon but now what was cannon, great to know.

[Jotaux]

I enjoyed the movie but I wouldn't put it ahead of Empire, or any of the original trilogy. Definitely better than TFA though.

My main issues:

1) Rey is the best at everything. The force, piloting, engineering, etc. And its not even learned, its all natural talent. Even Luke was not as gifted in the force in the original trilogy. I could wave it away if she was a part of the Skywalker bloodline but shes just a random nobody given superpowers.

2) Sith Lords don't pop up out of nowhere, what is Snokes origin? Another apprentice of Sidious? Clone? I would have liked an explanation.

3) Why didn't they just have the ship turn around and jump to lightspeed right away after having everyone evacuated? That ship was dead in the water anyways.

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Did he? I never read the Plagueis book or anything... I thought his only apprentices were Dooku and Vader?

Plagueis was even still alive when Maul died. I can't recall when or how he learned of Maul or what his reaction was.

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She's not a Mary Sue. If she is, so was Anakin and Luke. Both of them were natural talents when it came to the force, hell, Anakin was tauted as 'the chosen one'. So why's it an issue for Rey to be, AND be a nobody, when this has been established as a thing years ago in the EU.

Luke was nowhere close to her level. Mary Sue is the most overused term I have ever seen though. Which character isn't a Mary Sue?

[Deleted]

Did he? I never read the Plagueis book or anything... I thought his only apprentices were Dooku and Vader?

He took Maul as an apprentice before he killed Plagueis.

[Krigaren]

Did he? I never read the Plagueis book or anything... I thought his only apprentices were Dooku and Vader?

IIRC, Maul was being groomed as a Jedi-hunting acolyte or something more akin to what the Inquisitors are in Rebels. Force sensitive with some basic training, but not an actual apprentice.

I believe Palpatine takes Maul as his formal apprentice and begins to train him in the full use of the dark side of the force only after Palpatine kills Plagueis.

But in general, I don't think it was unheard of for the apprentice to take an apprentice of their own in a bid to overthrow their master. If I remember my lore correctly, every time this happens it ends up with either the master being successfully overthrown, or the apprentice's apprentice being found out and one or both of them being killed by the master. So it never seems to last very long.

[Nefarious Tea]

Plagueis was even still alive when Maul died. I can't recall when or how he learned of Maul or what his reaction was.

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Luke was nowhere close to her level. Mary Sue is the most overused term I have ever seen though. Which character isn't a Mary Sue?

I looked it up on Wookieepedia and you're right (also derp forgot about Maul).

Also, I think Luke's problem isn't that he wasn't strong in the Force initially, it's that for the most part he refused to believe Force-related things could be done and so he essentially closed his mind to the Force involuntarily. "You must unlearn what you have learned."

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I enjoyed the movie but I wouldn't put it ahead of Empire, or any of the original trilogy. Definitely better than TFA though.

My main issues:

1) Rey is the best at everything. The force, piloting, engineering, etc. And its not even learned, its all natural talent. Even Luke was not as gifted in the force in the original trilogy. I could wave it away if she was a part of the Skywalker bloodline but shes just a random nobody given superpowers.

2) Sith Lords don't pop up out of nowhere, what is Snokes origin? Another apprentice of Sidious? Clone? I would have liked an explanation.

3) Why didn't they just have the ship turn around and jump to lightspeed right away after having everyone evacuated? That ship was dead in the water anyways.

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Plagueis was even still alive when Maul died. I can't recall when or how he learned of Maul or what his reaction was.

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Luke was nowhere close to her level.

Rey wasn’t really the best at every thing instantly, she was a scaver and had trained with her dumb stick so the fighting and engineering make sense. The piloting not so much but force users have always been amazing pilots so mabye that make sense. As far as the force goes she gets shown up by snoke 3 times without even moving so she’s clearly not the best at that and she’s equal to kylo as you see in the saber scene. Not to mention kylo does far better then her when fighting the red guys.