EU Launches New Defense Pact

[Acidbaron]

You arguing against points that were never made, it's called strawmanning.

Merely pointing out the obvious facts that you were far from alone in anything you won over that period of time or the sole contributor, something that apparently still stings. You did not win the war the allied forces did and you would be wise to remember that when you continue to fall in further isolation due to failing politics spanning now over decades.

[caervek]

Merely pointing out the obvious facts that you were far from alone in anything you won over that period of time or the sole contributor

I know but I never aid we were or we did.

I just pointed out that had it not been for our contribution things would have turned out very differently. I.E if we had simply agreed to a truce after Dunkirk and let Hitler keep France and the other countries he had conquered then the chances are he would have been happy with that and stopped there, thus negating any US/USSR involvement.

But no we stuck in it, fought him off, then joined forces with the USA to blitz back into mainland Europe and help our friends.

[Deleted]

Your history books were wrong, comically wrong.

Firstly the UK successfully won the Battle of Britain after which there was no possibility of the AXIS invading us, after that we could have just sat happy and waited for the USSR to take Berlin if we so wished. Secondly the USA entered the war after Japan attacked their pacific fleet at port in Perl Harbour, I hear there's a film about it if you're interested.

Okay, Absent US support, both the UK and the USSR would have collapsed.

[caervek]

Okay, Absent US support, both the UK and the USSR would have collapsed.

That's quite unlikely in the case of the USSR as even if Moscow had fallen the AXIS could never have taken the whole country before being beaten back. And it's completely untrue in the case of the UK, we needed help from the USA in returning to France (to be fair it was more like us helping them) but stopping the Germans from invading us and securing the island we managed on our own (when we say we I'm obviously including empire/commonwealth in that ofc).

[Mekh]

Your history books were wrong, comically wrong.

Firstly the UK successfully won the Battle of Britain after which there was no possibility of the AXIS invading us, after that we could have just sat happy and waited for the USSR to take Berlin if we so wished. Secondly the USA entered the war after Japan attacked their pacific fleet at port in Perl Harbour, I hear there's a film about it if you're interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

The US were sending plenty of supplies to the UK months before officially entering the war.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destro...ases_Agreement

[Fuiking]

25 European countries tried to create an united defense pact 75 years ago? We learn new versions of history everyday, I guess.

There was an attempt by France and the UK to do that with Belgium and the Netherlands.. it failed horribly.. mostly due to distrust by Belgium and the Netherlands.. most stemming from precieved issues during WW1

[Noradin]

There was an attempt by France and the UK to do that with Belgium and the Netherlands.. it failed horribly.. mostly due to distrust by Belgium and the Netherlands.. most stemming from precieved issues during WW1

Well... the so called Holy Roman Empire was strictly speaking an defense pact between sovereign European countries for much of its existance.

[Deleted]

Well... the so called Holy Roman Empire was strictly speaking an defense pact between sovereign European countries for much of its existance.

It was a German Empire in all but name.

[Kellhound]

Well in fairness France/Belgium/Austria/etc were quite happy we stopped Germany doing it last time :P

- - - Updated - - -


As it stands right now the combined EU forces are capable of annihilating the Russian air force without any help from the US.

The only countries with the air power to threaten the us today are China and the USA.

European countries lack sufficient AEW (excluding those owned by NATO itself), EW, and tanker assets to actually take on a full scale air war against Russia.

[Noradin]

It was a German Empire in all but name.

It was not a nation state, the French came up with that idea, but only much, much later.
The HRE was what allowed states like Switzerland to form to begin with, because they had sovereignty and were in a defense organisation that protected them against their neighbours. There were hundreds of small states (many city states among them) right in the middle of Europe, how do you think they could exists for so long with neightbrours such as France, Sweden, etc.? Because everyone attacking them would be faced with all of them--that is until they had their little religious civil war and broke apart politically.

[Deleted]

It was a German Empire in all but name.

Mmm it was never a "Roman" empire

[Noradin]

Mmm it was never a "Roman" empire

Depends on how you define "Roman".
Many "Roman" Emperors weren't Roman either, depending on which you choose.
Augusta Treverorum was the capital of the (Western) Roman Empire for some time, and that city certainly was part of the HRE which later also included large parts of Italy--and cities such as Rome. It also mostly used Roman law.

[Slant]

Mmm it was never a "Roman" empire

They considered themselves successors of the Roman Empire. It kinda makes sense from their point of view, too.

[Deleted]

That's quite unlikely in the case of the USSR as even if Moscow had fallen the AXIS could never have taken the whole country before being beaten back.

No, see the entire soviet industrial capacity was moved by US supplied Trucks past the Urals - resistance would have been impossible absent equipment.

And it's completely untrue in the case of the UK, we needed help from the USA in returning to France (to be fair it was more like us helping them) but stopping the Germans from invading us and securing the island we managed on our own (when we say we I'm obviously including empire/commonwealth in that ofc).

A, the UK was wholly dependent on imports at this point, the UK war effort would not have been able to beat back the Luftwaffe for example, and B, you get that in a prolonged air war, the industrial capacity of all of continental Europe would have broken the UK?

- - - Updated - - -

Mmm it was never a "Roman" empire

Neither, Holy, Roman, or an Empire - Voltaire.

[Noradin]

Neither, Holy, Roman, or an Empire - Voltaire.

(Who was French and due to the time he lived in biased against everything medieval.)

[ParanoiD84]

Believe it when i see it.

[caervek]

European countries lack sufficient AEW (excluding those owned by NATO itself), EW, and tanker assets to actually take on a full scale air war against Russia.

A full scale invasion of Russia yes, but defensively the EU is more than capable of winning an air war against Russia.

- - - Updated - - -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

The US were sending plenty of supplies to the UK months before officially entering the war.

I never said they weren't, but that was long after the Battle of Britain. We had secured the main British isles from threat of invasion at that point, we needed to buy supplies to secure the rest of the empire from AXIS threat (as they could actually get to those places).

[Kellhound]

A full scale invasion of Russia yes, but defensively the EU is more than capable of winning an air war against Russia.

- - - Updated - - -



I never said they weren't, but that was long after the Battle of Britain. We had secured the main British isles from threat of invasion at that point, we needed to buy supplies to secure the rest of the empire from AXIS threat (as they could actually get to those places).

Even in a totally defensive fight, the EU lacks the AEW and EW assets needed, and the lack of tankers would crimp the ability to maintain CAP beyond the FLOB. The massive SAM advantage Russia has would counter the ~400 fixed wing combat aircraft advantage the EU has if every country went all in. Russia has much better deep strike capability as well.

[Skroe]

The whole point of the EU defense plan is to emancipate us from "The US can do that for us". So, no. Pretend the US doesn't exist. That's why we need a strong navy.

A strong navy being the most significant and difficult step.

The EU will have an Air Force worth a damn (it's already has a sound foundation) years before a Navy.

I mean have you seen the Baden-Württemberg-class frigate monstrosity? The destroyer that forgot air defense? Like for crying out loud, if you're not going to put something like the SM-2 or SM-6 in it, why bother?

The ongoing problem with any EU military is that there's going to be too many cooks in the kitchen, and things like the Baden-Württemberg-class, that exists in the same realm as the Álvaro de Bazán-class frigate, is just a shining example of it.

The EU military's first problem is that a unified force is going to have dozens of different classes in service for decades. And the second problem is that uniformity in procurement seems to only be made on an case-by-case basis.

If Europe is serious about this, it needs to be, the EU decides what is being bought, and member states throw the money down to pay for it. But they don't get to say 'no' at the national assembly level. In fact, a key requirement for this entire idea is to remove the ability for member states to say 'no' about a whole slew of defense issues.

[caervek]

Even in a totally defensive fight, the EU lacks the AEW and EW assets needed, and the lack of tankers would crimp the ability to maintain CAP beyond the FLOB.

Lol no, the USSR is dead, has been for some time. The Russian air force only has ~10 A-50s AEW&C jets and ~18 tankers still functional, by comparison the UK alone has better AEW and almost as many tankers (not that they are that important when fighting over your own land really), nevermind the entire combined air forces of the EU. From a purely EW/SEAD pov Russia is also quite outgunned. Their air power is nowhere near a match for the EUs.

The lie that Europe would need help from the USA in the event of a mythical Russian invasion is simply one told by US politicians in order to secure funds to match Chinese build up without openly saying they are arms racing China.