Playing WoW without addons or using external sites

[Zephire]

I've been playing WoW with addons since it launch or whenever they started to come basically. Recently I got a new computer so I decided to start from scratch, not using any addons.

I can handle everything in raids because the included raid system works fine, it's enough for heroic Antorus at least. I have yet to try mythic without. I play a paladin tank and a DH dps and everything seems fine except one thing; my damage. If I didn't check icy-veins, wowhead, mmo-champion and other resources I would have no clue what would be a good way of playing and even when I know, I have no idea if I'm performing good, bad or in between.

Addons and guides are nice but should that really be required for a player to perform decent or rather, to know you perform decent? Yes, you can most likely learn from hammering target dummys with a timer to see how you do but that would take time. However, you have no clear way of knowing this.

Say you join a raid from group finder. The first two bosses work but then at High Command, the raid fails and people with low damage get kicked, you get kicked. Are you only kicked because other people have addons? They can compare, I can't. How would it be if we didn't have addons or sites that analysed your bis setup and what your output would be in this scenario?

Isn't the difference between having addons and visiting external sites and not having and not visiting too big? Shouldn't the game provide enough tools for me to improve without addons etc? If I raid and stand in fire, I can read about it in the dungeon journal, I see the visual effects and learn to avoid them. I learn that a debuff spreads or do aoe damage by reading it's description. I'm not saying you should become a world first PvE:er or Blizzcon arena master by only having what the game provides but rather that you could. It would take time, it would take effort and most would not manage without external sites and/or addons but some would.

Or is this what the game provides and I'm just one of those who can't understand it? I don't know. I'm just curious what other people think.

TL;DR:
Addons and external sites for analysing gear and performances are great but shouldn't someone not using them be able to learn it easier from the game it self? You've basically no feedback on how your damage is, as an example.

[ONCHEhap]

I play mostly without addons myself,yet I still use details for the reasons you gave

Imo,they just make the combat logs in game more readable and better,in a way,make them like how the details addon works.If they did that,it would be possible to play competitively without a single addon.

But as of now,you can't analyse your performance and your raid's performance without details or a similar addon,and warcraft logs,and for mythic raiding,I really need this to analyse my team's attempts.

What I'm trying to say,is that they should allow us to analyse stuff in game instead of having to go through third party websites and addons

[LonestarHero]

It seems you are saying that the native setup is good for the causal.

If you are worried about your DPS performance, you are heading outside the casual camp.

[Zephire]

It seems you are saying that the native setup is good for the causal.

If you are worried about your DPS performance, you are heading outside the casual camp.

Well, not entirely. If I go into a normal raid and get the boot due to lack of damage, then I would have no idea how to know that. I mean, I can be kicked for not doing tactics right but that I can fix by reading the journal. That's not the case with damage though. Maybe this is heading outside the casual camp but I'd still argue that as, for example, a tank, I would have no problem doing high mythics, heroic or mythic raids with the standard UI because it's mostly about survival and positioning and all that I can learn from the journal and wiping. I get no feedback of what level my damage is or if I'm doing my healing right. Just seems a bit unfair to be honest.

[Kuthe]

Yeah recount should be accessible in game, same with WQF, that setup is so nice and simple.
They're the only two addons I've reinstalled after coming back last month. I had DBM but it's sounds became annoying so I deactivated it

[potis]

TL;DR:
Addons and external sites for analysing gear and performances are great but shouldn't someone not using them be able to learn it easier from the game it self? You've basically no feedback on how your damage is, as an example.

Left over elements from the period were WoW was a RPG and not an ARPG.

DPS didnt matter in most cases because not everything was designed around that apart from a few DPS check fights over the period, Patchwerk Brutalus etc, it was designed around slow shitty RPG fights, aka Vanilla/Half TBC.

Thing started changing in WOTLK with the Hybrid classes crying dear murder, especially Paladins that wanted to do as much damage as the Warrior and tank as well, and heal as well as the priest, combined with Shamans requesting the same in terms of DPS/Healing, along with moonkins.

The game changed because people wanted it to change, and then they blame Blizzard.

And this was always the case since vanilla, addons and external sites, but back then it wasnt all free on the internet, but in a more "private" less known places.

This place itself is the living proof.

Mmo-champion won the datamining war with worldofraids.com back in 2007 and became the dominant site, and because it started releasing all these "noob friendly" guides and being the only data-mining guide since back it became the main WoW site around 1 year after, a bit after Ulduar.

It turned from a "secrety private thing only a tiny % knew at the middle of TBC" to a "MY LITTLE BRONY PERSONAL BLOGGERS THAT PLAYED WOW TO LEVEL 30 AND HAS AN OPINION ABOUT THE MYTHIC SCENE!!11ONEONEELEVEN".

Personal performance addons are needed because the game changed to require personal responsibility apart from 15 players carrying the 15 players while the other 10 hover in between getting carried and carrying others.

[Deleted]

Its fcking beyond me, why we still don't have integrated DPS/HPS meter.

TBH - they should ban DBM and other mechanic tools. THEY should provide us, with a nice handy DPS/HPS meter. It would streamline the encounters, they would have easier time balancing out mechanics.

I would not use any addons in that case and just do fine on competing.

[Nathanyel]

Yeah recount should be accessible in game, same with WQF, that setup is so nice and simple.

I'm not sure if it's truly baseline, but I think you can right-click most quests in the tracker and select "Find Group", which opens a search in the Group Finder.
WQGF's features will never be baseline, though, as it enables you to join a group with 3 clicks on the same button (enter WQ zone, popup frame shows, click to search, click to request join, click to accept invite) and obviously you can also find groups across language borders, which multiplies the number of available groups especially in the EU region.

[Zephire]

Left over elements from the period were WoW was a RPG and not an ARPG.

DPS didnt matter in most cases because not everything was designed around that apart from a few DPS check fights over the period, Patchwerk Brutalus etc, it was designed around slow shitty RPG fights, aka Vanilla/Half TBC.

Thing started changing in WOTLK with the Hybrid classes crying dear murder, especially Paladins that wanted to do as much damage as the Warrior and tank as well, and heal as well as the priest, combined with Shamans requesting the same in terms of DPS/Healing, along with moonkins.

The game changed because people wanted it to change, and then they blame Blizzard.

And this was always the case since vanilla, addons and external sites, but back then it wasnt all free on the internet, but in a more "private" less known places.

This place itself is the living proof.

Mmo-champion won the datamining war with worldofraids.com back in 2007 and became the dominant site, and because it started releasing all these "noob friendly" guides and being the only data-mining guide since back it became the main WoW site around 1 year after, a bit after Ulduar.

It turned from a "secrety private thing only a tiny % knew at the middle of TBC" to a "MY LITTLE BRONY PERSONAL BLOGGERS THAT PLAYED WOW TO LEVEL 30 AND HAS AN OPINION ABOUT THE MYTHIC SCENE!!11ONEONEELEVEN".

Personal performance addons are needed because the game changed to require personal responsibility apart from 15 players carrying the 15 players while the other 10 hover in between getting carried and carrying others.

Yeah, this just means the game it self dropped the basics for addons etc to handle or at least in some parts. Which is not ideal at all. You should be able to be given hints on how you're doing and how you can improve with basic game stuff. If you want the details then external sites and addons are a great complement. As you said, the game evolved, but some parts didn't and this is a crucial part in my opinion.

You are right about that and I have been saying this for a while now - You should have your rotation right and gear should have most of stats needed for your spec. Rest is understanding mechanics of the boss. If your rotation is right, you don't need anything, you can just focus the mechanics. Generally speaking, most of those analytical information is nicely hidden from players because players should not need to know a lot of information in order to play the game. But it's not ideal.

"If your rotation is right" is so true. How would you know? The game will not give you any hints if you don't spend tons of time analysing what's optimal. Then you have stat thresholds like haste or legendarys which change your rotations.

[potis]

Yeah, this just means the game it self dropped the basics for addons etc to handle or at least in some parts. Which is not ideal at all. You should be able to be given hints on how you're doing and how you can improve with basic game stuff. If you want the details then external sites and addons are a great complement. As you said, the game evolved, but some parts didn't and this is a crucial part in my opinion.



"If your rotation is right" is so true. How would you know? The game will not give you any hints if you don't spend tons of time analysing what's optimal. Then you have stat thresholds like haste or legendarys which change your rotations.

Your logic is solid, but it doesnt work like that, unless you are like that.

Me, you and a few others enjoy improving in every aspect, learning etc, not everyone is like that.

Average joe wants to return home, feed kids, and enjoy pixels, the game telling him "You are so fucking useless at this game" when he does something, wont make him improve, he will quit.

Ghostcrawler said something like that the last few months he worked, they did a massive research about this stuff, they realized that the majority of the players does not want/care to improve,if things get too hard, they dont try to learn, they quit.

So, not having something telling you "You are god awful" at the game, keeps those players paying.

Thats why its an addon, yes many people use it, but they still pretend not to care, they will find an excuse to not care.

Now imagine if Warcraftlogs was integrated into WoW, and the average joe got to see "The average player of your class, deals 200% more damage than you at the same item level, god you suck at this game".

They can ignore the addon, "He has more gear than me, oh the bastard has bis legenderies, oh he has higher relics" and any sort of excuse they can find.

But if all the logs in the game compiled give him the result of "You are fucking awful!", yeah it wont go well.

[HuxNeva]

That is like saying Microsoft should bundle an OS with all professional productivity programs installed.
Having a potential for user innovation through an open extendable UI is one of the great things about WoW.
Everyone can start to play with the base UI. Over time, people will gradually learn to appreciate ad-dons as they learn more about the game.

[Zephire]

Your logic is solid, but it doesnt work like that, unless you are like that.

Me, you and a few others enjoy improving in every aspect, learning etc, not everyone is like that.

Average joe wants to return home, feed kids, and enjoy pixels, the game telling him "You are so fucking useless at this game" when he does something, wont make him improve, he will quit.

Ghostcrawler said something like that the last few months he worked, they did a massive research about this stuff, they realized that the majority of the players does not want/care to improve,if things get too hard, they dont try to learn, they quit.

So, not having something telling you "You are god awful" at the game, keeps those players paying.

Thats why its an addon, yes many people use it, but they still pretend not to care, they will find an excuse to not care.

Now imagine if Warcraftlogs was integrated into WoW, and the average joe got to see "The average player of your class, deals 200% more damage than you at the same item level, god you suck at this game".

They can ignore the addon, "He has more gear than me, oh the bastard has bis legenderies, oh he has higher relics" and any sort of excuse they can find.

But if all the logs in the game compiled give him the result of "You are fucking awful!", yeah it wont go well.

I get what you're saying. It could just be presented as "The average player does 200% more damage than you, maybe you should look into this and that to improve? I mean, they do most damage with fire ball while your damage comes mostly from scorch. You could try to use more fire balls in the future and see what happens! We believe in you!" instead of "you suck". Still, this is feedback and I do think the average Joe can improve with the right encouragement. I know I have problems getting into this mindset and understand how Joe thinks so just take it as a general concept or thought.

In your spell book or specialization panel, you top spells for that spec are displayed. Read spells, think a bit and rotate. I mean, if chaos bolt says that it does most damage than the rest of spells, you would want to use that. But then you realize you can't use it always, so you use incinerate to generate your resource. Basic stuff. In short, you play the game.

Yeah, that is true and it'll work to a point. You still have no way of telling if changing X with Y in situation Z improved your performance or not. User potis did give me an idea though. You'd not have to directly see your damage but you could see how the average player does and the game could compare what spells is used and how much and based on that give suggestions in a friendly way, how you could improve. I don't know but I would really like this. If the average player of your class and spec and your self is using ability X and Y and the average player performs better then the game could give subtle hints (if you want it to) on how you could improve by using X more than Y. This way you could try to improve and maybe get a better grasp on how the class works. I think it would be pretty cool. The player could learn actively or passively more about the game.

That is like saying Microsoft should bundle an OS with all professional productivity programs installed.
Having a potential for user innovation through an open extendable UI is one of the great things about WoW.
Everyone can start to play with the base UI. Over time, people will gradually learn to appreciate ad-dons as they learn more about the game.

I'm not against addons at all and that is not my intention of this thread. I just think the basic game should give better feedback and leave details to addons. Addons are awesome.

[potis]

I get what you're saying. It could just be presented as "The average player does 200% more damage than you, maybe you should look into this and that to improve? I mean, they do most damage with fire ball while your damage comes mostly from scorch. You could try to use more fire balls in the future and see what happens! We believe in you!" instead of "you suck". Still, this is feedback and I do think the average Joe can improve with the right encouragement. I know I have problems getting into this mindset and understand how Joe thinks so just take it as a general concept or thought.

Its irrelevant how its presented, they dont care to improve, that is the problem.

Any sort of improvement is met with the comment "No lifer, hardcore, basement dweller" etc etc.

Its a mentality that was allowed to exist in the game and nothing can be done about it anymore.

Same as in IRL all the time, anyone smarter/richer etc etc is met with dismay and comments behind their back etc etc.

People do not enjoy being reminded they are average/sucky/useless at something they are doing.

[Gaidax]

What one person needs is not what other person needs. WoW is a big game and there is plenty of stuff to do that don't require the addons you consider mandatory - pray tell - why should a guy/gal who love pet battles, transmog hunting, RP/ERP or other casual activities have their interface cluttered with Damage Meters and other nonsense like that?

Basic UI is functional for all and if you feel like you need extra stuff - feel free to download addons. I think that's fine. The whole point of baseline UI is to be baseline and not overwhelm players with stuff that, chances are, does not really matter to them.

[Zephire]

Its irrelevant how its presented, they dont care to improve, that is the problem.

Any sort of improvement is met with the comment "No lifer, hardcore, basement dweller" etc etc.

Its a mentality that was allowed to exist in the game and nothing can be done about it anymore.

Same as in IRL all the time, anyone smarter/richer etc etc is met with dismay and comments behind their back etc etc.

People do not enjoy being reminded they are average/sucky/useless at something they are doing.

Well, I don't agree. There must be some way to convince them. Everyone can be convinced, it's just a matter of finding the right key (and door). Then again, maybe they don't want to and that's okay. I think I might have interpreted what you said a bit wrong. My bad!

What one person needs is not what other person needs. WoW is a big game and there is plenty of stuff to do that don't require the addons you consider mandatory - pray tell - why should a guy/gal who love pet battles, transmog hunting, RP/ERP or other casual activities have their interface cluttered with Damage Meters and other nonsense like that?

Basic UI is functional for all and if you feel like you need extra stuff - feel free to download addons. I think that's fine. The whole point of baseline UI is to be baseline and not overwhelm players with stuff that, chances are, does not really matter to them.

Agree. I really don't want a damage meter implemented in the game though. I just want to be provided some kind of feedback on how I do as a healer or damage dealer. Could be another tab in the journal, seems like a good spot or something that could be toggled on/off. The thing is, it would not overwhelm people. It would be as overwhelming as the journals way of describing bosses abilities or general tactics, everything else should be left to addons. Imagine doing pet battle without knowing what type of attack the ability is, if it does something other than damage and not seeing health bars. Would you not want to know what the abilities does, how much HP the enemy has, what buffs/debuffs are active etc? That's good feedback when you pet battle, it's also just active when engaging with pets.

[melzas]

I agree, dps meter is the only addon I can't play without. It drives me nuts not knowing how I perform.

[Deleted]

I de-installed my dps meter years ago, what a blessing. But then again I'm a filthy casual non raiding healer. :P

The only thing that annoys me about add-ons and especially external sites. Is that game developers (not just blizzard) are expecting you will be using them, so at some points it's impossible to play the game (properly) if you aren't consulting outside sources, and tbh that's incredebly lazy and bloody annoying.

[Kokolums]

Its irrelevant how its presented, they dont care to improve, that is the problem.

Any sort of improvement is met with the comment "No lifer, hardcore, basement dweller" etc etc.

Its a mentality that was allowed to exist in the game and nothing can be done about it anymore.

Same as in IRL all the time, anyone smarter/richer etc etc is met with dismay and comments behind their back etc etc.

People do not enjoy being reminded they are average/sucky/useless at something they are doing.

40 years ago, a common phrase in real life was "the protestant work ethic". It was the recognition that protestants seemed to have a really strong work ethic and it wasn't used a slur. Saying someone had a protestant work ethic was considered a huge compliment. At some point in the last 40 years, that phrase and its meaning fell out of the common vocabulary and kinda got replaced with the "Asian parent meme". The achievement-oriented depiction of Asian parents is kinda the same thing, only that is used as a slur. Work ethic of any kinda is more often used as a slur today, getting called a no-lifer when you should be going out getting drunk. That attitude may have existed on the fringes but it was nowhere near being socially accepted 40 years ago. In modern society, if you don't work hard, its almost a badge of honor, and you seem to need to go out and prove you are a reckless and careless adult or you get rejected by other adults.

Watching this chargeover slowly occur feels like adults decided it was easier to make fun of and shun people who work hard instead of feeling guilty they themselves don't work hard enough.

[Deleted]

I have huge respect for people that want to improve, even though I can't be arsed. But let's be honost, the group that deserve that respect are the people that actually -do- that math and write the guides and such. If you are just copy/pasting what they figured out you're just doing chores, good, but not something to get applauded for.

I think most people fall somewhere in between, they have their add-ons like DBM and recount, and maybe some class/role specific shit. They probably read some form of raid tactics. But they will not micro manage every 0,05% of dps improvement out there. No in dept class guides and endless target dummy simming and the like.

I feel to many people think that because the top raid guilds do something they must as well, where it's really not needed to switch faction and race simply because the world first guilds do so. And even if you feel you have to do so for your mythic run, by all means go ahead, but don't hold everyone around you to that standard.
If you want to spend 80 hours a week to get rich, by all means go ahead, but don't expect everyone around you to do the same.

- - - Updated - - -

Watching this chargeover slowly occur feels like adults decided it was easier to make fun of and shun people who work hard instead of feeling guilty they themselves don't work hard enough.

I feel it's more people realizing that it's more fun to live then to work. And 'working to live', e.g. work to get payed so you can survive and have something extra for fun stuff is to be prefered to 'living to work', e.g. spending all available hours hard at work, simply because it is deemed 'worthy'.

[msdos]

Is this the "pat yourself on the back E-peen" thread?

I raided high end vanilla all the way to WotlK with no addons (mostly because I played on a potato) and the only thing it did for me was enlarge the size of my e-peen. I found myself becoming "that guy" who has to project about how people use addons as a crutch.

It's the same logic as saying looking up fight strategies are a crutch. You may have DBM but still wipe 500 times on Kil'Jaeden. It's knowledge vs execution.