What "pure Vanilla" is?

[Projectmars]

Where did I say harder? I said retune to account for talents.

If 1.0 talents allow a raid in MC to do 50 dps and 1.12 talents allow the same raid in MC to do 100 dps then releasing the raid on a 1.12 based server would require you to double the boss health to make the fight last as long as it would have done under 1.0 conditions. I'm not suggesting they try and make the bosses harder than they used to be, merely that they released the game with 1.12 talents and readjust the first couple of tiers to compensate. Leave AQ and beyond as it is because most people would be facing those bosses with 1.12 talents (or closer to it) anyway.

Why do you feel the need to readjust any of the bosses for the 1.12 talents? It seems more like it would be arbitrarily adjusting the game to fit a certain view on what Classic raiding was rather than an acknowledgement of how it actually was in 1.12.

[Goondicker]

Broken charge it is. Sorry Warriors.

No PvP system until 1.4.

Essentially you want a broken game, with little to no content. At least temporarily...

You must not have read my original post. That, or you're cherry picking because you don't have anything useful to say.

I mentioned bug and exploit fixes would have to be done. I don't want a broken game; I want a game that isn't going to be ruined (again) by idiots who keep asking for this-or-that QoL until we end up playing World of Menucraft again.

And patch 1.1 to 1.4 was like four whole months. Most people probably won't even be 60 by that time. If you mean battlegrounds, I believe that was 1.5.

This is also why I voted "other" ...because I think either a static 1.12 with progressive releases, or a 1.1 - 1.12 patch progression would both satisfy the Classic community as a whole.

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Why do you feel the need to readjust any of the bosses for the 1.12 talents? It seems more like it would be arbitrarily adjusting the game to fit a certain view on what Classic raiding was rather than an acknowledgement of how it actually was in 1.12.

I think you've missed his point. You're not arbitrarily adjusting anything. You'd be adjusting it to compensate for increased player power- the result of using a later patch at the beginning of Classic.

[melodramocracy]

It'd objectively be any patch prior to BC. Arguments beyond that are arguments for the sake of arguing.

[Projectmars]

I think you've missed his point. You're not arbitrarily adjusting anything. You'd be adjusting it to compensate for increased player power- the result of using a later patch at the beginning of Classic.

Oh right, arbitrary implies no real reasoning, so bad word usage.

Either way, it's the point that you feel some need to adjust based on the whole "increased player power" bit that's wrong. That's how it was for a new player hopping in at 1.12, so what's the problem? If you want MC/Ony/BWL to be tougher at launch then you should probably support it starting on an earlier patch.

[A dot Ham]

You must not have read my original post. That, or you're cherry picking because you don't have anything useful to say.

I mentioned bug and exploit fixes would have to be done. I don't want a broken game; I want a game that isn't going to be ruined (again) by idiots who keep asking for this-or-that QoL until we end up playing World of Menucraft again.

And patch 1.1 to 1.4 was like four whole months. Most people probably won't even be 60 by that time. If you mean battlegrounds, I believe that was 1.5.

This is also why I voted "other" ...because I think either a static 1.12 with progressive releases, or a 1.1 - 1.12 patch progression would both satisfy the Classic community as a whole.

I'm not cherry picking. I'm responding to your very pointed argument that having major changes implemented over time is acceptable. I asked from whose perspective exactly?

Warriors get their changes in 1.6.
Rogues get their changes in 1.12.

And no, the honor system was released in 1.4. BGs are introduced in 1.5. But the ranking system was in place before you had somewhere to actually participate. Coincidentally that is when the whole TM/SS battles got so big, and died shortly after BG introduction.

Having content release on the same timetable makes little to no sense beyond purposefully holding back certain players. In a game such as this, there are things that released earlier than others because there is an acceptable pace/rate at which the majority of players finish content. That being said there are inevitably things that do not make it with the launch release because players won't even get to them for a given period of time. But that developers wished had been implemented earlier. (Like PvP).

The original release was constrained by the development process. Having the content release at the same pace is such an arbitrary time table. (It is a good word, because it does imply "without reason") Also to say that people will not be 60 by that 1.4 release is total speculation, especially considering that this won't be the first time for many people. The same mistakes won't be made. The dedication will be different. Since your hypothesis is just pure speculation, I'll counter it now, by saying I think that people will be hitting 60 much quicker than the original release of the game. Warranting a faster time table for the release of content (assuming of course you space it out and don't just start with 1.12).

Some of those major bug fixes that you are "fine" with implementing at launch, didn't get implemented until class reviews, and major class overhauls.

So then YOU are cherry picking what does or doesn't get added from various patches.

[Goondicker]

Oh right, arbitrary implies no real reasoning, so bad word usage.

Either way, it's the point that you feel some need to adjust based on the whole "increased player power" bit that's wrong. That's how it was for a new player hopping in at 1.12, so what's the problem? If you want MC/Ony/BWL to be tougher at launch then you should probably support it starting on an earlier patch.

I support it both ways, in a sense. I think if it starts at 1.1, player power would be fine. But if it was 1.12, the raid may need to be buffed to compensate, so it feels like early Vanilla. I think a straight 1.12 with unbuffed early raids would be a 3rd choice (imo). But any would be reasonable.

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I'm not cherry picking. I'm responding to your very pointed argument that having major changes implemented over time is acceptable. I asked from whose perspective exactly?

Warriors get their changes in 1.6.
Rogues get their changes in 1.12.

And no, the honor system was released in 1.4. BGs are introduced in 1.5. But the ranking system was in place before you had somewhere to actually participate. Coincidentally that is when the whole TM/SS battles got so big, and died shortly after BG introduction.

Having content release on the same timetable makes little to no sense beyond purposefully holding back certain players. In a game such as this, there are things that released earlier than others because there is an acceptable pace/rate at which the majority of players finish content. That being said there are inevitably things that do not make it with the launch release because players won't even get to them for a given period of time. But that developers wished had been implemented earlier. (Like PvP).

The original release was constrained by the development process. Having the content release at the same pace is such an arbitrary time table. (It is a good word, because it does imply "without reason") Also to say that people will not be 60 by that 1.4 release is total speculation, especially considering that this won't be the first time for many people. The same mistakes won't be made. The dedication will be different. Since your hypothesis is just pure speculation, I'll counter it now, by saying I think that people will be hitting 60 much quicker than the original release of the game. Warranting a faster time table for the release of content (assuming of course you space it out and don't just start with 1.12).

Some of those major bug fixes that you are "fine" with implementing at launch, didn't get implemented until class reviews, and major class overhauls.

So then YOU are cherry picking what does or doesn't get added from various patches.

I don't think it needs to exactly follow the original release timing, but I do think it should be similar. If everything was given to players all at once, Classic would have a drastically shorter lifespan.

I agree that many will hit 60 before 1.4 (myself included). But I think most will not.

Fixing bugs and updating class mechanics are not the same thing. Keep in mind that I support both progressive patching and a static 1.12. That said, the former will more closely replicate Vanilla, which is the goal.

[A dot Ham]

I support it both ways, in a sense. I think if it starts at 1.1, player power would be fine. But if it was 1.12, the raid may need to be buffed to compensate, so it feels like early Vanilla. I think a straight 1.12 with unbuffed early raids would be a 3rd choice (imo). But any would be reasonable.

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I don't think it needs to exactly follow the original release timing, but I do think it should be similar. If everything was given to players all at once, Classic would have a drastically shorter lifespan.

I agree that many will hit 60 before 1.4 (myself included). But I think most will not.

Fixing bugs and updating class mechanics are not the same thing. Keep in mind that I support both progressive patching and a static 1.12. That said, the former will more closely replicate Vanilla, which is the goal.

First, the shorter life span is irrelevant is it not? We're talking about old content. If people stop playing something just because they've done it... doesn't that mean there isn't a market for vanilla to begin with?

Second, what happened in 2004. Is not indicative of what will happen in 2018 (or whenever it gets added). As previously mentioned this is a replay for many people. I doubt classic is going to (initially) bring in NEW players to WoW. My 2nd toon to reach 60 was infinitely easier, and faster the second time around. Both being familiar with MMOs (no longer an issue) as well as being familiar with this specific game in particular made the process less of a chore the second time around. I'm also not sharing an account/computer with my little brother. I don't have to log off because someone has to use the phone (yay for dial up internet). I am most likely not going to have to deal with frequent server crashes. There are a plethora of reasons why people are going to or could chow through content at a break neck pace. Again, this wasn't that much of an issue when people naturally didn't get there quickly. But if people are simply gated for the sake of the "experience" it is going to turn people off. The alternative to this, is that while gated, people will power through multiple characters, and having multiple, appropriate geared characters was not indicative of the "true vanilla experience" either. Changing characters like they changed their socks.

Additionally the pacing for certain content was totally off. For example ZG was released AFTER BWL, yet many items were worse than items obtainable from MC. AQ 20 could essentially be skipped by anyone who had completed BWL but was released the same time as AQ 40. AQ 40 could be skipped almost entirely as many pieces were considered side grades, or rather (PvP oriented) as they exchanged + healing, for +dmg... etc. AQ was not a full tier upgrade.

IF we were to release content according to a sort of real progression/mapping our experience with ACTUAL upgrades it would go as follows.

ZG
MC
AQ 20
BWL
AQ 40
Naxx

Now some bosses had overlap for certain tiers, but in terms of ACTUAL gear progression, you would be completing content and getting nothing for your character. Which is why certain content got reused later... because it missed the mark the first time around.

By starting with 1.12 players get the benefit of having the most polished version of their class. They also get to experience content in a way that is more appropriate for someone starting off. Gearing and leveling already gates the game... you don't need some arbitrary cut off to tell you you've gone too far... turn around.

[Arinnaya]

"I'm not saying make it harder, I'm saying make it more difficult"

It's ok, maths isn't for everyone. Retuning is purely numbers. Doesn't make the encounter more difficult BECAUSE PLAYERS HAVE BETTER TALENTS.

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Why do you feel the need to readjust any of the bosses for the 1.12 talents? It seems more like it would be arbitrarily adjusting the game to fit a certain view on what Classic raiding was rather than an acknowledgement of how it actually was in 1.12.

I didn't say "need" at any point, I said I could get on board with it.

I'm also saying retune ONLY if we start with 1.12 talents. When MC first opened, people were on 1.0 talents and so the bosses would have been of a certain difficulty. If everyone had 1.12 talents originally then those bosses would've been easier. I'm saying that I wouldn't mind if they retuned the health pools of bosses so that it took the same time to kill as it originally did when released. i.e. account for the increased player power that 1.12 talents had over 1.0 talents.

[BuckSparkles]

1.12 is what I am expecting with progressive tier unlocks...but 1.0 could be interesting.

[Projectmars]

It's ok, maths isn't for everyone. Retuning is purely numbers. Doesn't make the encounter more difficult BECAUSE PLAYERS HAVE BETTER TALENTS.

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I didn't say "need" at any point, I said I could get on board with it.

I'm also saying retune ONLY if we start with 1.12 talents. When MC first opened, people were on 1.0 talents and so the bosses would have been of a certain difficulty. If everyone had 1.12 talents originally then those bosses would've been easier. I'm saying that I wouldn't mind if they retuned the health pools of bosses so that it took the same time to kill as it originally did when released. i.e. account for the increased player power that 1.12 talents had over 1.0 talents.

But why should it be changed to make it take the same time to kill as it did when it released in 1.0? There isn't any real point to buffing the bosses' health pools if Classic starts on 1.12, other than to fit some weird expectation of how it should be vs how it was.

[evogsr]

But why should it be changed to make it take the same time to kill as it did when it released in 1.0? There isn't any real point to buffing the bosses' health pools if Classic starts on 1.12, other than to fit some weird expectation of how it should be vs how it was.

Not that this poll is completely indicative of anything, but that's why insofar most are probably voting for 1.1 to be the starting point and not 1.12.

All of the dungeons and raids, save for Naxx would have their relative difficulty invalidated by starting at 1.12 - especially more so for MC, ZG, BWL, and AQ20. If that's where Classic starts off, then it does make sense why people would like to see some kind of tuning involved in order to maintain some sort of balancing act and not have this content approached as driveby. It's not that people want to see tuning occur -just because-.

In a common sense approach, it really doesn't make any sense to start at 1.12 for this reason alone due to the amount of tuning and testing that would have to be done to ensure a similar experience as it happened back then.