Warchief Sylvanas, everyone.

[Talsar]

TBF, it's Alliance's intelligence service fuck up that caused it all.

There's no one else to blame, Alliance is the reason why both Horde and Alliance suffered a defeat during initial assault on the Broken Shore.

It's a good thing the Horde had a capable intelligence agency in place that totally didn't get fooled by the legion and prevented the broken shore massacre from happening! Oh wait no they didn't.

Sure the alliance tried, got tricked, and failed but that's better than the horde who didn't do anything at all.

Love people talking shit about the alliance intelligence service when the horde never bothered to have one. But maybe lacking intelligence is the horde's theme after all.

[ello]

It's a good thing the Horde had a capable intelligence agency in place that totally didn't get fooled by the legion and prevented the broken shore massacre from happening! Oh wait no they didn't.

Sure the alliance tried, got tricked, and failed but that's better than the horde who didn't do anything at all.

Love people talking shit about the alliance intelligence service when the horde never bothered to have one. But maybe lacking intelligence is the horde's theme after all.

humans being a plot black hole is nothing new.

[Mehrunes]

Speaking of pandaren, I wonder how hard Taran Zhu is rolling his eyes in BFA

He's busy licking his wounds after he has suffered more than any other during the war against the Legion.

[Dagoth Ur]

He's busy licking his wounds after he has suffered more than any other during the war against the Legion.

Rumor is Sargeras is already being space carted to stand trial in Pandaria. No one has suffered from Silithus getting stabbed as much as them.

[Arrashi]

Rumor is Sargeras is already being space carted to stand trial in Pandaria. No one has suffered from Silithus getting stabbed as much as them.

"The following tremor caused my beer to spill"
Crowd: *Gasp* !!!

- - - Updated - - -

It's actually also related in "War Crimes," the tweet was more about the actual percentages as opposed to the narrative. In "War Crimes" it is made clear that only Garrosh's warrior elite among the re-purposed Kor'kron, Malkorok, and defensive forces of Orgrimmar (led by Nazgrim) were loyal to Garrosh. The artisan, mercantile, peonage, and non-military forces of Orgrimmar bore the brunt of the his loyalists' oppression and were anything but loyal. It's also intimated but not stated in the Siege of Ogrimmar instance itself, with the shopkeepers imprisoned and the Cleft of Shadow nearly exterminated by Kor'kron fanatics.

We have none - that's a possible trajectory for the story to go, honestly. I'm kind of hoping it doesn't, personally; but I fully expect some young Orc somewhere still idolizing the same "warrior ideal" that led Garrosh and his True Horde to ruin.

I didn't bother overly with Ashran, but from what I saw it was more or less a scramble between the Horde and Alliance for potent magical relics and artifacts. This is largely a handwaved justification for the presence of a PvP objective within the game's narrative - much the same vein as Warsong Gulch, Alterac Valley, and Arathi Basin. Those conflicts have dragged since almost the inception of WoW, and not an inch of ground gained or lost? It's something I tend to handwave as a narrative Klein Bottle that explains PvP, not really a key element to the overarching story (in which Ashran doesn't feature at all insofar as WoD is concerned).



Well, I don't think Orgrimmar is going to turn into thatch and stick open-air cottages with Rushkah masks in every corner overnight. But there is a definite and definable sense of change on the wind within the Horde's structure - people feel it, and depending on their perspective they either welcome it or pine for a return of what came before. "Orc Fatigue" is more of an external matter that could explain part of the direction of the narrative, but I think it's more than that and also feel that the developers are less immediately reactive than people give them credit for (or blame them for). The story of WoW is no doubt mapped out in advance, at least in the manner of a rough draft - and there's only so much that can be changed from rough draft to final product unless you through the entire storyboard out the window and start writing off the cuff.

Yes, and warcrimes were released way after start of SoO.

The problem with ashran is that it showcases that "problematic" mentality in horde went nowhere, despite wisdom of brewdaria and king anime cool threat. Which means that whole story literally had no impact on events.

Change in horde structure ? You mean that rather than giving some lore to tauren and trolls to make them interesting and meaningful, they pushed orcs into obsurity so all three are equally meaningless. Nice.

And honestly, im not so sure about this "mapped in advance" given how desperate was blizzard to say that SoO will be alliance fisting moment (or something) and it being only expansion to have its final raid spoiled at announcement.

[Verdugo]

And honestly, im not so sure about this "mapped in advance" given how desperate was blizzard to say that SoO will be alliance fisting moment (or something) and it being only expansion to have its final raid spoiled at announcement.

To be fair, no one expected they would turn Garry into literally "literally Hitler".

[Arrashi]

To be fair, no one expected they would turn Garry into literally "literally Hitler".

Don't tell me you of all people expected subtlety on blizzards part when they announced horde and alliance will be joining forces against him.

[Verdugo]

Don't tell me you of all people expected subtlety on blizzards part when they announced horde and alliance will be joining forces against him.

I didnt expect a fucking downfall reference.

[Aucald]

Yes, and warcrimes were released way after start of SoO.

It still answered that particular question with more narrative flair and flavor than a simple tweet. The testimony of a random mushroom vendor in the Cleft of Shadow, about the resistance to the Kor'kron and his own brush with their casual violence, was oddly moving.

The problem with ashran is that it showcases that "problematic" mentality in horde went nowhere, despite wisdom of brewdaria and king anime cool threat. Which means that whole story literally had no impact on events.

I'm still a bit fuzzy on the nature of this "impact" you seem to be searching for? Are you saying that because of Garrosh being killed in a joint effort by Vol'jin's Insurrection and the Alliance that all conflict between the Horde and Alliance should've ended (permanently or temporarily)? The Horde and Alliance enjoyed a full truce from Classic all the way up to WotLK and that still didn't stop Arathi Basin, Warsong Gulch, or Alterac Valley from being conflict hot-zones. They didn't come out of MoP or SoO as buddies - Varian implicitly threatened Vol'jin and the Horde with destruction as his parting speech at the end of SoO. Ashran is just another small-scale skirmish between the two forces to add to the list, they aren't and likely never will be friends.

Change in horde structure ? You mean that rather than giving some lore to tauren and trolls to make them interesting and meaningful, they pushed orcs into obsurity so all three are equally meaningless. Nice.

Look at Legion and so far at BfA - the Tauren, Trolls, and Elves of the Horde are the current the main vehicles for lore. The Blood Elves just got a huge moment in the sun with the Suramar arc, so much so that there are people already complaining about overexposure and "Elf fatigue" even though the Blood Elves basically sat fallow and did nothing for nearly 3 entire expansions. The Tauren are getting similar exposure with the Highmountain Allied Race story and hopefully more as BfA goes on - and Zandalar can't help but be a Troll lore bonanza on the level not seen since classic Zul'Gurub.

And honestly, im not so sure about this "mapped in advance" given how desperate was blizzard to say that SoO will be alliance fisting moment (or something) and it being only expansion to have its final raid spoiled at announcement.

This seems a bit of a contradiction - are you saying that it isn't mapped out in advance, or that it being mapped out in advance isn't a good thing? If the former you're contradicting your own point, but if the latter I would say it's a bit from column A and a bit from column B. Personally, I'm more a fan of writing off the cuff while following a loose skeletal structure of how I want to get from point to point. But we're dealing with a group of people writing a story so you're going to have to deal with a more rigid structure by dint of that alone if nothing else.

[Arrashi]

It still answered that particular question with more narrative flair and flavor than a simple tweet. The testimony of a random mushroom vendor in the Cleft of Shadow, about the resistance to the Kor'kron and his own brush with their casual violence, was oddly moving.



I'm still a bit fuzzy on the nature of this "impact" you seem to be searching for? Are you saying that because of Garrosh being killed in a joint effort by Vol'jin's Insurrection and the Alliance that all conflict between the Horde and Alliance should've ended (permanently or temporarily)? The Horde and Alliance enjoyed a full truce from Classic all the way up to WotLK and that still didn't stop Arathi Basin, Warsong Gulch, or Alterac Valley from being conflict hot-zones. They didn't come out of MoP or SoO as buddies - Varian implicitly threatened Vol'jin and the Horde with destruction as his parting speech at the end of SoO. Ashran is just another small-scale skirmish between the two forces to add to the list, they aren't and likely never will be friends.



Look at Legion and so far at BfA - the Tauren, Trolls, and Elves of the Horde are the current the main vehicles for lore. The Blood Elves just got a huge moment in the sun with the Suramar arc, so much so that there are people already complaining about overexposure and "Elf fatigue" even though the Blood Elves basically sat fallow and did nothing for nearly 3 entire expansions. The Tauren are getting similar exposure with the Highmountain Allied Race story and hopefully more as BfA goes on - and Zandalar can't help but be a Troll lore bonanza on the level not seen since classic Zul'Gurub.



This seems a bit of a contradiction - are you saying that it isn't mapped out in advance, or that it being mapped out in advance isn't a good thing? If the former you're contradicting your own point, but if the latter I would say it's a bit from column A and a bit from column B. Personally, I'm more a fan of writing off the cuff while following a loose skeletal structure of how I want to get from point to point. But we're dealing with a group of people writing a story so you're going to have to deal with a more rigid structure by dint of that alone if nothing else.

What impact ? I dunno, anything ? Like orcs being executed on streets or kicked out of horde. Like alliance occupation of orgrimmar ? Like anything that isnt just "back to status quo".

And BGs aren't really a good indication of any lore since they are frozen in time. And some of them are centered around collecting balls.

The tauren and trolls being main vecicles for lore. What ? Trolls got small involvement in 5.3 only to comletely vanish into obscurity and do absolutely nothing after that. Tauren..like literally did nothing. Excluding small apperance of dezco, tauren had 0 lore in MoP, WoD and Legion, and now get small tidbid by introducing highmountain. And if we needed to wait whole 2 expansions for "lore bonanza" than perhaps blizzard needs to step it up.

What im saying is that blizzard will write anything that pleases fans, and makes things on the go. It was so obvious that whole garrosh things was response for ocean of alliance tears created by Cata, in a futile attempt to stop the whining.
As for writing in general, i prefer stories that...have point. Don't end where they started. Actually progress the story. SoO was nothing more than poor attempt at fanservice.

- - - Updated - - -

I didnt expect a fucking downfall reference.

Given how heavy handed blizzard writing tends to be, especially with villains, this is exactly what i expected. And boy it delivered. Especially parents forced to fighting to death threatened with lives of their children. That one was affably evil.

[prwraith]

"The Horde's selfless leadership in the war against the Legion has left our ranks depleted. Our enemies slaver at the thought of stealing what is ours. We will not let them."

ok, she has either:
clearly lost it,
or
she has become a great propagandist.

i lean more towards the second.
since she even dared to shout "for the horde" at the trailer.
you're not fooling anyone dear. especially the horde.

Please reveal your bias more

[Aucald]

What impact ? I dunno, anything ? Like orcs being executed on streets or kicked out of horde. Like alliance occupation of orgrimmar ? Like anything that isnt just "back to status quo".

So for you, movement in the story would have to be a shake-up of existing faction memberships or massive loss of territory. I think the former has too many gameplay issues to really occur outside a true sequel (e.g. it would be unwise to force players to be re-homed in a new faction if it wasn't of their choosing), but the latter is already occurring in BfA with Teldrassil and Undercity. I would argue the status quo has been beat down pretty severely, if not broken.

And BGs aren't really a good indication of any lore since they are frozen in time. And some of them are centered around collecting balls.

That's true, but the fact the new ones keep popping up still illustrates the original point.

The tauren and trolls being main vecicles for lore. What ? Trolls got small involvement in 5.3 only to comletely vanish into obscurity and do absolutely nothing after that. Tauren..like literally did nothing. Excluding small apperance of dezco, tauren had 0 lore in MoP, WoD and Legion, and now get small tidbid by introducing highmountain. And if we needed to wait whole 2 expansions for "lore bonanza" than perhaps blizzard needs to step it up.

Troll and Tauren lore movements are in BfA - not Legion which was pretty focused on the Elven situation in Suramar and the Broken Shore. I was also referring to things post-MoP, not during it - although we did meet the ancestor race of the Tauren, the Yaungol, with pretty involved storylines during MoP. I agree that the changes have been a bit slow in coming, but I put that down most to WoD and its lamentable side-tracking of the primary storyline. If Legion had followed MoP directly this wouldn't be so much of an issue.

What im saying is that blizzard will write anything that pleases fans, and makes things on the go. It was so obvious that whole garrosh things was response for ocean of alliance tears created by Cata, in a futile attempt to stop the whining. As for writing in general, i prefer stories that...have point. Don't end where they started. Actually progress the story. SoO was nothing more than poor attempt at fanservice.

I hear this refrain quite a lot, but I'm still unsure about it - are you saying you would prefer writing that pleases no one? Yes, it's terrible to accede to demands if it makes the story objectively worse, I agree with that, but any writer worth their salt knows that if you don't write what your audience likes you're not going to be writing for long. It makes perfect sense, both logically and market-wise, for Blizzard to keep their ears open for popular characters, story-arcs, and settings and the refine those things or give them more exposure accordingly. It's a delicate balance of staying true to the story as you envisioned it and also writing with an eye toward a favorable audience reception. Especially if you're spinning a yarn over the course of a decade or longer.

I also disagree that SoO was "just fanservice," I would argue that seeds for SoO were sown well in advance of the actual occurrence. Garrosh was always a hothead, all the way back to WotLK and his outline of strategy to Saurfang concerning the Borean Tundra and the presence of Valiance Keep. I would agree his more positive elements (e.g. his "dismissal" of Warlord Krom'gar in Stonetalon) were muted to cultivate him more as an archetypal villain, but the root of villainy was always present in any case. Trying to claim Garrosh's story was a fabricated body-swerve to appease the Alliance partisans is to dismiss the elements of his character that were present and even highlighted way back in WotLK such as his attack on Varian in the Ulduar intro cut-scene, or his grandstanding at the Argent Tournament, or his various dialogues in Warsong Hold.

[Arrashi]

snip

Yup, if you write a story about world wide conflict, you would think that its consequences would be something more, than one guy barking half assed threat, and everyone else going home. And saying "but orcs aren't now in focus of the lore" is kinda moot point, where goblins never needed such story to be completely ignored.
And when everyone who isnt elf or human is completely ignored anyway.
Do anything. Have orc players receive a death knight treatment, if only for limited time. Have some horde or neutral NPCs throw some snark, like "Oh wait a second, you are the good orc (player name), sorry im just TOO used to killing your kind left and right.
The whole "standard issue bad guys" got wiped out and everyone was happy was...really underwhelming, and in a long run pointless.
If gameplay is the main problem, than don't write a story that creates narrative dysonance. As it is, ending of SoO was hilariously underwhelming, and anticlimatic.

Its like having a 1500 page long love story that ends with main character wanting to confess only to get a phone from his job that he needs to show up because other guy got sick leave. And thats the end, we dont know if he ever confessed, if she said yes, if she said no, nothing. I doubt that would be great and satisfying end.

And again, troll and tauren never needed story of SoO to happen. They needed someone to actually bother with writing a quest and a character or two. Its not like orcs freed some space. If anything its elves that are being shoved down our throats left and right and yet we dont see culling of silvermoon.

Yes, and keep in mind that almost all "new" bgs have absolutely zero lore associated with them. I mean whats the story of kotmongu again ? Horde and alliance pandas fighting for orbs somewhere because...something ?

What im saying is that storytelling should be organic, and follow what writers want. Not them "listening to feedback" and changing them to fit the masses. Do you think King or Kojima do what people want ? They do whatever the fuck they want, and thats why they are so popular.
You know who actually do aim to please audience ? Harlequins, light novels and such crap. The lowest of low of creativity.

And speaking of writing that pleases no one, can you tell me who was actually pleased by SoO outcome ?
The alliance ? Oh no, wait they were the ones whining the most, feeling cheated out of their victory, and being underwhelmed by fisting moment.
The orc fans ? They sure as hell love seeing their race as bad guys once again huh ? Oh no they don't.
Horde fans in general ? Oh wait, they hated their faction being once again in negative light, slintered, and all the horde buildup going to shit.

So who exactly was pleased by that ?

SoO, was a crappy story, clearly aimed at fanservice, which is obvious given how they spoiled SoO as one of first things in expansion announcement. The only other final raid to be so clear was ICC, and thats mostly due to buildup. SWP, DS, HFC and even Antorus, all came to light much later. Only SoO was announced from start as "You will be able to siege horde capital and kill warchief, cool eh ?". Then blizzard got confused and tried many things...which mostly lead to war crimes, one of the heaviest to stomach fantasy books i ever read. And i read alot of books including really bad ones.

And god forbid, they introduce a character with actual flaws. Tell me which of those flaws lead to garrosh wanting to kill all innocents on azeroth, a goal he openly admits in SoO ? The lolevil infusion. Thats the buildup. Blizzard can't even pull such an easy trope as blood knight properly.

[Aucald]

Yup, if you write a story about world wide conflict, you would think that its consequences would be something more, than one guy barking half assed threat, and everyone else going home. And saying "but orcs aren't now in focus of the lore" is kinda moot point, where goblins never needed such story to be completely ignored.

Ideally, nothing is ignored but rather you have a spotlight that shifts its focus periodically. You can't focus on *everything* in a single chapter of an ongoing story, after all; but if the argument is that the Humans and Orcs have hogged the spotlight then I think you're now seeing a pivot away from that to a focus on what were previously more of satellite races.

Do anything. Have orc players receive a death knight treatment, if only for limited time. Have some horde or neutral NPCs throw some snark, like "Oh wait a second, you are the good orc (player name), sorry im just TOO used to killing your kind left and right. The whole "standard issue bad guys" got wiped out and everyone was happy was...really underwhelming, and in a long run pointless. If gameplay is the main problem, than don't write a story that creates narrative dysonance. As it is, ending of SoO was hilariously underwhelming, and anticlimatic.

I agree, it would've been nice to see more of the ramifications of SoO as well as the rise of a non-Orcish Warchief on Orcish society. I don't quite share in your view that the end of SoO was underwhelming or anticlimactic, though; even if it didn't have everything that I (and obviously you) wanted it still turned the page on that particular chapter and demonstrated the myriad legacies of war.

And again, troll and tauren never needed story of SoO to happen. They needed someone to actually bother with writing a quest and a character or two. Its not like orcs freed some space. If anything its elves that are being shoved down our throats left and right and yet we dont see culling of silvermoon.

We just might in BfA what with Silvermoon being the lone viable citadel of the Horde left in the Eastern Kingdoms.

Yes, and keep in mind that almost all "new" bgs have absolutely zero lore associated with them. I mean whats the story of kotmongu again ? Horde and alliance pandas fighting for orbs somewhere because...something ?

"During the lost days of ancient Pandaria, the ruling mogu built temples not unlike themselves – immense in size, vast in scope, and steeped in forces as old as the ground beneath their feet. Stony statues of the mogu still glare down from their long-vacant temples, and echoes of their supremacy persist to the present day. Inside the autumnal Temple of Kotmogu, a vicious melee has erupted over artifacts the mogu left behind: treasures older than the bloodlines of human kings and the clans of orcs, orbs of power that have bathed in the energies of Pandaria for ages. Will they bring the might of the mogu to the Horde or Alliance?"

Yes, the objective itself is just a variant of "Capture the Flag," but the battleground does have grounding in lore as it is a source of powerful relics being fought over by Horde and Alliance partisans.

What im saying is that storytelling should be organic, and follow what writers want. Not them "listening to feedback" and changing them to fit the masses. Do you think King or Kojima do what people want ? They do whatever the fuck they want, and thats why they are so popular. You know who actually do aim to please audience ? Harlequins, light novels and such crap. The lowest of low of creativity.

I think you overestimate the relative freedom of authors and creators in their businesses. King (and I assume you mean Stephen King) definitely listens to his audience and isn't at all bothered by writing things for them. You can get intimate view of his perspective and processes in his quasi-biographical book "On Writing," but in brief he goes into his relationship with his editors and publishers, and his response to both the publishing firm's and fans' demands of "more of this, please." I can't speak for Hideo Kojima because I'm not as familiar with him, but I imagine he has similar constraints and concerns as his work is for a game publisher.

And speaking of writing that pleases no one, can you tell me who was actually pleased by SoO outcome ?

Many people, I imagine; probably in rough balance with those that weren't. It wasn't spectacular nor was it was truly abyssmal, at least in my estimate.

The alliance ? Oh no, wait they were the ones whining the most, feeling cheated out of their victory, and being underwhelmed by fisting moment. The orc fans ? They sure as hell love seeing their race as bad guys once again huh ? Oh no they don't. Horde fans in general ? Oh wait, they hated their faction being once again in negative light, slintered, and all the horde buildup going to shit. So who exactly was pleased by that ?

You seem to be speaking for large and diverse groups that likely have varying and contradictory opinions. I don't know who was pleased by it, and I don't know who was angered by it. I imagine the answer is probably "a lot of people" for both questions.

SoO, was a crappy story, clearly aimed at fanservice, which is obvious given how they spoiled SoO as one of first things in expansion announcement. The only other final raid to be so clear was ICC, and thats mostly due to buildup. SWP, DS, HFC and even Antorus, all came to light much later. Only SoO was announced from start as "You will be able to siege horde capital and kill warchief, cool eh ?". Then blizzard got confused and tried many things...which mostly lead to war crimes, one of the heaviest to stomach fantasy books i ever read. And i read alot of books including really bad ones.

Repeating something many times does not make it anymore true. I liked SoO both as a story and as a raid, and I also liked how it subverted my expectations for MoP and the fact that the Horde *didn't* become a bad guy like I had expected. The Horde, the overwhelming majority of it, turned against Garrosh and his "True Horde" and took it back from him to reform it once more in the mold of Thrall's original ideal for it. I also liked "War Crimes" except for its ending, which I felt was too contrived and too reliant on Garrosh as the prime mover. I personally felt Garrosh and rose and fell, and that his story-arc should've ended with MoP. The August Celestials also annoyed me by revealing the Trial itself as something of a farce. But I liked the personal interactions between characters, the exploration of the genesis of the Horde from an external perspective, and some of the vignettes explored in the novel.

And god forbid, they introduce a character with actual flaws. Tell me which of those flaws lead to garrosh wanting to kill all innocents on azeroth, a goal he openly admits in SoO ? The lolevil infusion. Thats the buildup. Blizzard can't even pull such an easy trope as blood knight properly.

Garrosh was unhinged. His arc begins with his revelations in Garadar upon learning his father died as a hero to the Horde, ending the Blood-Curse of Mannoroth and redeeming his entire race (in part). Garrosh steps into his father's shoes but is both unprepared and ill-suited for them, due to his upbringing, his isolation, and his lack of experience and knowledge of the Orcish plight. Upon learning from a rather biased source that Thrall has pushed austerity on the Orcs out of what he feels is a misplaced notion of repentance for the First and Second Wars, and presumably the destruction of Draenor. Garrosh (being uninvolved in these conflicts) doesn't feel as if the Orcs "owe" a debt in that grand sense, and rankles under Thrall's imposed bonds. Frustration grows in him, but he still tries to comport himself in the manner Thrall seems to want.

On becoming Warchief (a job he expressly didn't want, but nonetheless felt duty-bound to uphold) and lacking Thrall's influence to keep him grounded, Garrosh immediately begins to chafe against his fellow leaders in the Horde - leaders that he had secretly always felt were inferior to the Orcs, and now without Thrall's mitigating presence openly pushes against. This isolates him from his peers and further insulates him against mitigating influences, and he slowly replaces Thrall's trusted advisers with collection of people who implicitly agree with him and enforce his own biases (a rookie move from a would-be leader promoted well past his own competency level). Now ruling in an echo-chamber his worst inclinations come to the fore and he slowly but surely widens an existing schism in the Horde into a gulf that inevitably leads to full insurrection once his main detractor, Vol'jin, returns from Pandaria with an eye to make good on the promise he had made prior to self-imposed exile from Orgrimmar.

By the time Garrosh is ranting and raving about killing innocents he's fully in the grip of the Y'shaarj's influence - you are experiencing a dark dream being fed to him by the Old God's power that he's using against you. I didn't see that so much as Garrosh himself saying those things but more of seeing what Y'shaarj was doing in real time as Garrosh tried to use his essence against his own enemies. I'm fully convinced that if Garrosh had been victorious in SoO he would've come out of it as a pawn of Y'Shaarj - a slavering engine of destruction trying to realize the Old Gods' goals much in the way that Deathwing ended up. That didn't happen, of course, but it's the likeliest outcome of Garrosh trying to master Y'shaarj.

But in any case, that's a marked character flaw that was carefully and skillfully brought into realization in the story.

[therealbowser]

The in-game story is typically always a compacted version of a more fully-fleshed story that wouldn't fit into the framework of the gameplay model. The story you're looking for may actually play out in the pre-release novel for BfA, "Before the Storm." Difficult to say at this point, of course, but the kind of story you're describing (while it would be awesome to see) is a lot of content for a relatively small gameplay element. The current situation and its resolution is just a quick way to get where we need to be in terms of the story - I agree it has narrative shortcomings, but it's all we have without dipping into external resources.

The kind of story I imagine would have you picking several dialogue choices with Thalyssra to push her over to your side (all of them work, or if not, you can keep rechoosing until you pick the right one) and then a moment would show that in their time of need, Horde would be there where Alliance might not. It wouldn't need to be dramatic, and it could have some obligatory combat, but it could be better than 'lolol Alleria almost corrupted the sunwell in front of the Nightborne' and Tyrande literally throwing the diplomacy because she just doesn't care/is incredibly stupid to a degree that a basic campfire would have been a better diplomatic device.

I don't like that Blizzard is depending on very heavily forced plot elements to tell a story that is frankly a bit cringey to read. They could have easily adjusted it so that it fit into time constraints without making it so the Nightborne join the Horde primarily because the Alliance act like incompetent idiots... again.

I strongly disagree with the argument of "This was the best Blizzard could do", if that is what you are implying, because it's not even remotely true. Blizzard could have done any number of things to make it less ridiculous and more interesting without artificially complicating or extending the scenario significantly. Even just some small touches could have been done so that the Alliance makes mistakes but don't act like the most moronic diplomats on Azeroth -- which is supposed to be one of their greatest strengths, not their greatest weakness.

[Arrashi]

snip

It was so skillful and careful that it left afrasiabi confused, broken and full of disappointment.

You can write story to switch focus. As it is, blizzard is simply too lazy to do anything out of ordinary, past minimum effort. Thats why they focus mostly on generic paladins and human mages (and female elf archers). Vol'jin had all the space to do anything in WoD. And he...utterd 3 lines of dialogue. Its not about some races taking space, its about blizzard simply not caring to put any effort into world building, and small details. Thats one of the reasons why "neutral" questing almost completely replaced faction based one - it just takes so much less work.

And quite frankly just as i remember cataclysm ranting, i remember SoO discusions as well. I remember Nelf fans complaining for not imposing harsher penalties on horde, i remember alot of alliance players really underwhelmed with "thats it ?", i remember horde players pissed off to be forced to raid their own capital. And i remember many orc fans (o hai @Wildberry), not being too happy with it. I also remember many people having wide variety of reactions to pandas suffering the most.
But as hyperbolic as it may sound, i can't remember anyone saying "It was neat ending, i like it, it leaves me satisfied".

You say, you are happy with MoP not making horde the bad guys, i say its one of the worst aspects of this already bad story. Rather than giving horde actual questions to ask itself, to redefine itself, and to prove what it is, MoP story asks horde following question "Are we one dimensional, shallow and completely unlikeable and uninterestnig villains ?" And horde asnwers "Uhm no ?". Thats not a deep story. Horde gets an easy way out. They are good, honorable nice guys. Completely unrelated to those evil orcs, who i may remind you have no legal right to represent the horde. Its just boring. The fact that they dusted vol'jin and shoved him as this icon of horde values with zero prior buildup only made it worse.

Garrosh, since the very first MoP cinematic is nothing but one dimensional villain. He proves that on every step. Its actually admirable how hard they menaged to fuck up this story. You would think that in story, that supposedly was going to show us that danger can come from within us, and not only from external sources, they would show slow downfall, a good intentions going wrong, about moral struggle and about conflicting values. Nope, one dimensional villain doing one dimensional villain stuff. He disrespects everyone (because thats what villains do), gets his own soldiers killed (because thats what villains do), treats allies like shit (a really villainy things to do) and most importantly kills innocents (thats the most important thing).

And it wasnt just during his fight when he acts like that. All of his soldiers are mindless animals bent only on killing innocents (why, noone know, tho my theory that helpless civilians were only thing they had fighting chance against), all his minions are just so...evil. Like so over the top evil.
His plan also makes absolutely zero sense. Im still trying to figure out what exactly he tried to accomplish. Like how exactly was abandoned by like 95% of your own people, then uniting them with all your enemies aganst you and getting besieged in your city a plan for world control is beyond me. Like his whole story makes no sense here. Than again, anything esle would require subtlety.

And don't get me started with nazgrim. Just because some blizzard writer read 2 first lines of "Good general in evil army" trope on tvtropes doesn't make that any improvement over the story. Especially since what nazgrim does makes as little sense as rest of the story.

[The Penguin]

Pretty sure you give the oath to Sylvanas at Voljins funeral

You have to in order to progress in the game. There is no secondary dialogue. Ergo because it's a required part of accessing content, I do not consider it a actual choice my characters would make. Rather I consider it piss-poor story-telling I was forced into by Blizzard, if I wanted to play max-level content. WTB options to tell Nathanos to shove it in BFA. Otherwise Sylvanas is merely female Garrosh.

[Friendlyimmolation]

You have to in order to progress in the game. There is no secondary dialogue. Ergo because it's a required part of accessing content, I do not consider it a actual choice my characters would make. Rather I consider it piss-poor story-telling I was forced into by Blizzard, if I wanted to play max-level content. WTB options to tell Nathanos to shove it in BFA. Otherwise Sylvanas is merely female Garrosh.

From a lore standpoint, you swear the oath or you aren’t Horde.

[Aucald]

You can write story to switch focus. As it is, blizzard is simply too lazy to do anything out of ordinary, past minimum effort. Thats why they focus mostly on generic paladins and human mages (and female elf archers). Vol'jin had all the space to do anything in WoD. And he...utterd 3 lines of dialogue. Its not about some races taking space, its about blizzard simply not caring to put any effort into world building, and small details. Thats one of the reasons why "neutral" questing almost completely replaced faction based one - it just takes so much less work.

I agree, I was also pretty dissatisfied with Vol'jin's tenure as Warchief. I would've been happier had WoD not occurred and he died when he did in Legion - I know that would've put his tenure down to a very brief window all in all, but it would've been better than an entire expansion where he accomplished nothing. Actually, there's a lot of WoW that would be fixed by ignoring WoD, but that's another matter altogether.

And quite frankly just as i remember cataclysm ranting, i remember SoO discusions as well. I remember Nelf fans complaining for not imposing harsher penalties on horde, i remember alot of alliance players really underwhelmed with "thats it ?", i remember horde players pissed off to be forced to raid their own capital. And i remember many orc fans (o hai @Wildberry), not being too happy with it. I also remember many people having wide variety of reactions to pandas suffering the most. But as hyperbolic as it may sound, i can't remember anyone saying "It was neat ending, i like it, it leaves me satisfied".

I remember the same discussions, but I also think the very fact that people are debating and arguing about the ramifications of it are part and parcel of the lasting legacy. That goes back to the number of people who call Garrosh a shit character with no depth or dimension, and yet we're still talking about him and his legacy years after the fact, well after he's passed from the story entirely. That's not the mark of a character without dimension and the shadow of Garrosh looms large into the WoW of today.

I personally didn't have an issue with Taran's somewhat self-serving "Pandaria has suffered the most speech," because he's actually right. No Horde or Alliance holdings have a giant Sha-scar etched into their heartland like the Vale of Eternal Blossoms. The Horde and Alliance didn't have a foreign power pull up to the shores of their homelands and fight a blood feud across their turf. Pandaria bore the brunt of the action in MoP, and the Pandaren as a whole never asked to be involved and never asked to be invaded by the Horde and the Alliance. So yeah, even though it's tone deaf to say at the close of a major faction battle between the Horde and the Alliance, it's not wrong either.

The theme of MoP was inculcated in Chen's musing in the opening cinematic - "what is worth fighting for?" It's an open-ended and Zen-like question perfectly befitting the theme of the Pandaren culture (and the real historic culture on which it's loosely based). What are the Horde fighting for? What are the Alliance fighting for? Garrosh and his True Horde represents one aspect of conflict - Vol'jin, the Alliance, and the Insurrection represent another. I think MoP gets a raw deal for most because it told a story in keeping with selfsame cultures mentioned above, it's open-ended and ultimately subject to perspective. You got out of it what you invested in it.

You say, you are happy with MoP not making horde the bad guys, i say its one of the worst aspects of this already bad story. Rather than giving horde actual questions to ask itself, to redefine itself, and to prove what it is, MoP story asks horde following question "Are we one dimensional, shallow and completely unlikeable and uninterestnig villains ?" And horde asnwers "Uhm no ?". Thats not a deep story. Horde gets an easy way out. They are good, honorable nice guys. Completely unrelated to those evil orcs, who i may remind you have no legal right to represent the horde. Its just boring. The fact that they dusted vol'jin and shoved him as this icon of horde values with zero prior buildup only made it worse.

Making one faction "good" and the other "bad" would be simplistic and two-dimensional - the truth always pitches its tent somewhere between the extremes. But the questions you ask above reflect the same ones I asked in the previous part of this reply, except it looks like you don't have an answer just yet (which is fine as this isn't a test or a contest). I find that I agree with Vol'jin's vision of the Horde related in the "Shadows of the Horde" novel - a collection of people from different cultures and walks of life, unified in the pursuit of mutual safety and the exchange of ideas and culture. Garrosh's vision of the Horde, the vision of prosperity through conquest and safety by the brutal suppression of those who would be opposed, is one I reject. But that's my choice, that's "what I fight for" as Chen would have it. That's my answer to the question that is the legacy of MoP.

Garrosh, since the very first MoP cinematic is nothing but one dimensional villain. He proves that on every step. Its actually admirable how hard they menaged to fuck up this story. You would think that in story, that supposedly was going to show us that danger can come from within us, and not only from external sources, they would show slow downfall, a good intentions going wrong, about moral struggle and about conflicting values. Nope, one dimensional villain doing one dimensional villain stuff. He disrespects everyone (because thats what villains do), gets his own soldiers killed (because thats what villains do), treats allies like shit (a really villainy things to do) and most importantly kills innocents (thats the most important thing).

And it wasnt just during his fight when he acts like that. All of his soldiers are mindless animals bent only on killing innocents (why, noone know, tho my theory that helpless civilians were only thing they had fighting chance against), all his minions are just so...evil. Like so over the top evil.
His plan also makes absolutely zero sense. Im still trying to figure out what exactly he tried to accomplish. Like how exactly was abandoned by like 95% of your own people, then uniting them with all your enemies aganst you and getting besieged in your city a plan for world control is beyond me. Like his whole story makes no sense here. Than again, anything esle would require subtlety.

And don't get me started with nazgrim. Just because some blizzard writer read 2 first lines of "Good general in evil army" trope on tvtropes doesn't make that any improvement over the story. Especially since what nazgrim does makes as little sense as rest of the story.

I think you're right here about the start of MoP, but I also think you're using the wrong yardstick. Instead of starting your view of Garrosh's story at MoP, instead stretch it back through Cata and toward the beginning of WotLK (where he first took on a prominent role in the Horde story). Do that and you'll see the development you're looking for - from good intentions and attempts to be what others wished him to be to the ultimate realization of what he truly wanted and what that meant for the Horde and for Azeroth. In WotLK he was an honorable general of the Horde who conducted his forces with the honorable comportment you'd expect, even upbraiding Sky-Reaver Korm Blackscar for his successful but decidedly dishonorable conduct at Icecrown. In Cata you see the cracks start to appear in the surface of his rule as his brashness, arrogance, and hunger for war come to the fore but he still demonstrates some of the honorable qualities that seemed ascendant back in WotLK. Finally in MoP he's mostly assumed his ultimate trajectory having isolated himself from all forms of tempering influence and far gone into his own desperate vision of what he thinks the Horde should be.

I would argue that the only truly evil member of Garrosh's inner circle was Malkorok, but he was bad enough and a terrible influence for a personality as weak as Garrosh's. Malkorok in his role as commander of the Kor'kron turned it into a reflection of himself - twisted, cruel, and utterly without mercy. It's these soldiers you're likely thinking of when talking about over the top evil, which they are. It was likely also Malkorok who, as a former member of the Dark Horde, was a chief architect of the Orc-only "True Horde" that began to grow out of the Horde as Garrosh's reign entered its brief and bitter winter. Garrosh turned the world against himself because, at the close of MoP, he'd essentially lost all his grasp on the reality of the world. Paranoia, isolation, and growing mental dysfunction (and I still maintain the likely influence of the Sha of Pride and Y'shaarj) all worked together to change him into a power-mad and deranged tyrant.

As for Nazgrim, he's pretty much the archetypal Creon - a model soldier and an honorable Orc who had the misfortune of tying himself to an undeserving and unjust ruler. I thought what he did made perfect sense insofar as it went. He allowed Thrall and Saurfang into Orgrimmar to treat with Garrosh because he felt some loyalty toward them both as former Warchief and storied hero of the Horde, but he didn't switch sides and ultimately died to retain his sense of honor and fulfill his duty to the current Warchief. It was a sad but noble death, and his lines during the encounter reflect this:

"So, it has come to this. Together, we have learned and grown over the years, and now we find ourselves face to face on the battlefield. Do not think I will go easy on you, nor do I expect any quarter. What we do now, we do for the Horde, both of us."

"In the end, I stood by the warchief, because it was my duty, and I am glad that it was you who struck me down. May your strength... lead the horde... into a new era of prosperity..."

[The Penguin]

From a lore standpoint, you swear the oath or you aren’t Horde.

From a lore stand-point you are a member of a Horde race. If X racial leader wants to swear a loyalty pledge to Sylvanas, that's their business.

#NotmyWarchief