Lets try fury

[Syegfryed]

what percentage of haste in fury im looking for? diehard arms player, want to try a bit fury, never understand how much we would sacrifice mastery for waste

[potis]

what percentage of haste in fury im looking for? diehard arms player, want to try a bit fury, never understand how much we would sacrifice mastery for waste

Read the fury breakpoint guide, generally rule of the thumb, try to keep Haste above 26-30%, even higher also if you dont have to sacrifice stats, assuming BiS M+ rolls etc, you get to that part easily.

[VyersReaver]

Read the fury breakpoint guide, generally rule of the thumb, try to keep Haste above 26-30%, even higher also if you dont have to sacrifice stats, assuming BiS M+ rolls etc, you get to that part easily.

I don't think you even need that, BiS list in Antorus has 30,55% haste on 960, if you get any of the Mythic pieces with haste to WF/TF - you're easily looking at more than 30%.

[potis]

I don't think you even need that, BiS list in Antorus has 30,55% haste on 960, if you get any of the Mythic pieces with haste to WF/TF - you're easily looking at more than 30%.

Which is my point, depends how much you wanna struggle, why not spam the M+ for the items you need with only plate classes and wait for everything to a TF of 965-980?

Basically meaning offset pieces and neck/rings etc, its so must haste at that value, that if you target the Mastery/Haste items, you still get off with stupid amounts of mastery, while having the haste breakpoints.

I just cant be bothered creating a custom list to check, plus in reality its rather hard to do so, getting all those TF etc.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

This hasn't been true since Wrath of the Lich King, and was only true then because rage used to scale with damage output. Cataclysm normalized rage generation, which effectively ended the trend of Warriors being any more "dependent on gear" than any other class.

Even if the rage-issue hasn't been in the game since then, Fury Warrs still relied heavilty on Crit to do any kind of Dps all throughout Cata, MoP and WoD. They were "gear dependant" in the same way that Fire Mages historically needed Crit for the spec to function properly. Fire needed Crit to proc Pyro/Ignite, Fury needed it to proc Flurry/Enrage which enabled the use of RB.

If Warrs still had the old Enrage/RB mechanics without having Rampage to proc it for you, you would still be stacking Crit like madmen.


So yeah, he's not really incorrect in stating that Fury has always been gear reliant. The difference in Legion, is that they are more reliant on specific Legendaries (like most other classes and specs), than simply having "enough secondary stats".

[Archimtiros]

Even if the rage-issue hasn't been in the game since then, Fury Warrs still relied heavilty on Crit to do any kind of Dps all throughout Cata, MoP and WoD. They were "gear dependant" in the same way that Fire Mages historically needed Crit for the spec to function properly. Fire needed Crit to proc Pyro/Ignite, Fury needed it to proc Flurry/Enrage which enabled the use of RB.

If Warrs still had the old Enrage/RB mechanics without having Rampage to proc it for you, you would still be stacking Crit like madmen.


So yeah, he's not really incorrect in stating that Fury has always been gear reliant. The difference in Legion, is that they are more reliant on specific Legendaries (like most other classes and specs), than simply having "enough secondary stats".

No, it's not the same thing.

Saying something is "dependent on gear" implies that they don't do well without gear, which is simply untrue. The fact that Fury, Fire, and frankly just about every other spec in the game at the time scaled well with a particular stat is irrelevant, they all did, and none of them were objectively poor until they got a certain amount of said stat. Even if the old Enrage mechanics existed, while Rampage and Battle Cry were changed or removed to make crit a valuable stat again, Fury wouldn't necessarily scale any better with gear than any other spec, or be any more dependent on gear than any other spec, it'd just value a different stat.

Saying something is "dependent on gear" is contextual; everything is "dependent on gear" to deal increasing amounts of, or competitive, damage, but Warriors aren't any more dependent on legendaries or gear than most any other spec, which was the original point.

[Dastreus]

Be ready to be the squishiest plate wearer in the game, for not that great of an output.

[Shelly]

This hasn't been true since Wrath of the Lich King, and was only true then because rage used to scale with damage output. Cataclysm normalized rage generation, which effectively ended the trend of Warriors being any more "dependent on gear" than any other class.

I disagree, at least whenever I think about Warriors - not just Fury or Arms or Prot - being reliant on gear for damage I think weapon-DPS.

They tried to move a lot of our stuff over to attack power in WotLK and normalized weapon speeds to 2.6 for 1-handers and 3.6 for 2-handers but as with almost every physical dps class (excepting monks) we need a good weapon. Without a high weapon damage we attack like wet noodles and WDPS tends to always be our highest simming stat.

Really wish they'd made the warswords 3.9 speed for shits and giggles ....

[Archimtiros]

I disagree, at least whenever I think about Warriors - not just Fury or Arms or Prot - being reliant on gear for damage I think weapon-DPS.

They tried to move a lot of our stuff over to attack power in WotLK and normalized weapon speeds to 2.6 for 1-handers and 3.6 for 2-handers but as with almost every physical dps class (excepting monks) we need a good weapon. Without a high weapon damage we attack like wet noodles and WDPS tends to always be our highest simming stat.

Really wish they'd made the warswords 3.9 speed for shits and giggles ....

Instant normalization occured in patch 1.8, not Wrath.

Yes, Warriors scale well with Weapon Damage, but that's not the same as saying something is dependent on it; every spec scales better or worse with a particular attribute, e.g., Warriors scale poorly with Strength. Ignoring that fact, the post I responded to specifically stated "Fury has always been heavily gear dependant, but we are reaching the end of the expansion in terms of item level, and this is the time fury warrior starts to really shine.". It implies that Warriors at the end of the expansion are arbitrarily getting stronger due to ilevel increases, which is unfounded. The ilevel jump this tier is the same as last (+30ilevel base, +30ilevel WF cap), there is no inflation; the relative gain from ilevel 900 (M NH) -> 930 (M ToS) is roughly the same as going from ilevel 930 (M ToS) -> 960 (M ABT).

The statement would have been true pre-Cataclysm, because increasing damage also inflated rage generation, which was a scaling factor that other specs lacked.

[Shelly]

Instant normalization occured in patch 1.8, not Wrath.

Yes, Warriors scale well with Weapon Damage, but that's not the same as saying something is dependent on it; every spec scales better or worse with a particular attribute, e.g., Warriors scale poorly with Strength. Ignoring that fact, the post I responded to specifically stated "Fury has always been heavily gear dependant, but we are reaching the end of the expansion in terms of item level, and this is the time fury warrior starts to really shine.". It implies that Warriors at the end of the expansion are arbitrarily getting stronger due to ilevel increases, which is unfounded. The ilevel jump this tier is the same as last (+30ilevel base, +30ilevel WF cap), there is no inflation; the relative gain from ilevel 900 (M NH) -> 930 (M ToS) is roughly the same as going from ilevel 930 (M ToS) -> 960 (M ABT).

The statement would have been true pre-Cataclysm, because increasing damage also inflated rage generation, which was a scaling factor that other specs lacked.

Tell you what.

Take those 991 warswords you have and replace the relics with 885 ones and let me know how little your damage changes.

Feel free to sim it.

Then go ahead and do the same for a mage.

[Archimtiros]

Tell you what.

Take those 991 warswords you have and replace the relics with 885 ones and let me know how little your damage changes.

Feel free to sim it.

Then go ahead and do the same for a mage.

Once again, you're confusing scaling with dependency. They're different words, mean different things, and has nothing to do with with the topic of the original statement which I responded to.

But hey, since you brought it up:


Anything else to add?

[Shelly]

Once again, you're confusing scaling with dependency. They're different words, mean different things, and has nothing to do with with the topic of the original statement which I responded to.

But hey, since you brought it up:


Anything else to add?

Nope, I stand corrected and I did some thinking on it and see your point.

Although funny that you used Fire Mage which had the same scaling/dependency problems that Fury did and both of which were addressed by building in crit buffs to specific abilities.

[Archimtiros]

Nope, I stand corrected and I did some thinking on it and see your point.

Although funny that you used Fire Mage which had the same scaling/dependency problems that Fury did and both of which were addressed by building in crit buffs to specific abilities.

Fire was simply the first profile I clicked, Frost is equal and Arcane only slightly lower (likely due to rather poor balancing throughout the expansion in general). You're still reading far too much into this "dependency" thing; MoP and WoD Fury both had excess crit mechanics precisely designed to make gearing easier.

[Pickynerd]

Fury is extremely fun....if you like to spam a relentless rotation for hours while raiding. There are worse options out there, if you're into that kind of thing.

[Blamblam41]

You need to decide how you want to play before you can really do this right.

From your post it sounds like you want to put in minimal effort and get a result that's exemplary.

Regardless of what you choose, you'll always need good RNG on what/if legendary items drop. There will always be a best in slot legendary item, though the disparity between BiS and it's lesser counterparts may be larger/smaller with specific classes and specs.

I don't understand how you can play "semi-casual" and "semi-hardcore" - to me that sounds like someone who's wanting to do LFR level effort and be assured Heroic level results.

More like someone willing to put out heroic level effort for something other than heroic raiding that doesn't rely on 4-21 other dipshits ruining my own fun.

I'm sorry, I just can't handle my fun being tilted around the enjoyment of other people long term, even if this is an mmo. At some point the game needs to reward me for dealing with the games un-fun bullshit, otherwise the fun parts of the game turn into brash annoyances.

OT: Fury is hella fun, get the legendary legs and just steep yourself in the rage. Also the class order hall talent ring is not bad at all.