[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Fargus]

On the one hand, the Emperor had no real backstory in the original films either. They didn't even say his name. But on the other the existence of Snoke raises a lot more questions - it kind of follows that the evil Empire has some twisted old Emperor in the original trilogy so maybe you can just shrug and say the audience basically gets the gist. But Snoke was apparently around through all the previous films and had something like Emperor level Force powers, and yet nobody mentioned him before. Luke and Leia both knew he was corrupting Kylo but neither mentions attempting to find and/or confront him over it. Or that they had any knowledge of who he was either.

So I can acknowledge that even though I really don't want to know who Snoke was, it's a big problem from a narrative perspective.

I guess the character of Snoke is kind of like the whole movie - you could argue that the concept is sound, but the execution is bad, and overall it leaves the audience frustrated and deflated. And honestly - did it really need to exist at all?

Thing about the Emperor was that Star Wars was relatively fresh, he didn't really need a backstory more than just being head of the Empire. Whereas here they're building up to the next big baddie, after years of established lore... and nothing. I would have liked to have known who he was, or at least what is motivations actually were. No point having him there and building him up otherwise.

[Jastall]

I liked it, not the best Star Wars film by a very long shot, there was a lot of stupid stuff, there was a lot of stuff that made no sense. But overall a good step up from TFA, considering how terrible the opening was this film did well to win me back, however so far this new trilogy is not a patch on the original and I actually prefer the prequel trilogy too, will have to see how it concludes.

I really really liked the fight where Kylo and Rey fight snokes guards, epic moment.

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I had actually forgotten all about that because it was followed up by a spaceship dropping freefall bombs onto another spaceship, in space lol.

Given that Star Wars freely has space fighters re-enact WW2-era dogfights in visual range (despite our own aircrafts being capable of far more than that), I think any notion of physics and actually acting like they're in space died when the franchise was born. To say nothing of stuff like the Death Star exploding in a fiery ball or the Super Star Destroyer somehow ''sinking'' in RotJ.

[SirCowdog]

He overheard when Finn and Rose were discussing with Poe during their flight back. Poe told them about it.

I literally have no memory of that. Weird....and I didn't ever leave the theater. Oh well, good details then, but it doesn't change the other issues I had.

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I could see a franchise reboot in the next couple of years.

Couple years? They could start now with an Old Republic set of movies done by actual good writers. There would be zero conflict with the current movies(other than timing of releases).

[Wilian]

I literally have no memory of that. Weird....and I didn't ever leave the theater. Oh well, good details then, but it doesn't change the other issues I had.

I guess it's easy to miss but the camera does focus on him during/after the discussion pointing out he heard it.

[Michh]

RT Justice league score: 41

RT Star Wars 8 score: 93

How can you recognize a shit movie but give another shit movie an almost perfect score? There is no doubt Disney paid them off. And not just them, I'm afraid.

Well I've thought RT was completely fake for a while now, but this does certainly prove it beyond a shadow of doubt. At best this is a 50/50 movie - to say it scored a 93 is laughable and they deserve to lose some credibility over that.

I am willing to overlook the light speed times that certain characters learned things, and other slights in the film that have been mentioned here. But you can't deny that it's shoddy writing with some terrible plot twist that lead absolutely nowhere and served no purpose what-so-ever in the film.

A 93 is an absurd score for this film.

Full disclosure - I haven't seen Justice League yet.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Thing about the Emperor was that Star Wars was relatively fresh, he didn't really need a backstory more than just being head of the Empire. Whereas here they're building up to the next big baddie, after years of established lore... and nothing. I would have liked to have known who he was, or at least what is motivations actually were. No point having him there and building him up otherwise.

That's what Mormolyce already aknowledged though, isn't it? The difference is simply that in a new setting you have to take some set pieces as already established. When you tell 8th installment in a continous story though it becomes imperative to introduce new things in a consistend fashion with the previous installments. Otherwise you just write half-assed fan fiction.

[SirCowdog]

Given that Star Wars freely has space fighters re-enact WW2-era dogfights in visual range (despite our own aircrafts being capable of far more than that), I think any notion of physics and actually acting like they're in space died when the franchise was born. To say nothing of stuff like the Death Star exploding in a fiery ball or the Super Star Destroyer somehow ''sinking'' in RotJ.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

It's one thing to gloss over that fighters have to operate at close range of each other. Maybe they literally don't have the right tech to do otherwise. That's...possible, if not plausible. However, ignoring the way that gravity works is kind of crossing the line.

I get why they did it, though. Like everything else that was bad in this movie, it was done because the movie was targeted at children, with children's logic and understanding. But that's one more mistake they're making. Many Star Wars fans have been with the franchise for DECADES. They're adults, with Adult understanding and knowledge, and they'll catch stuff like this and be disappointed.

And that's the last thing you want your audience to feel about the supposed epic story of Star Wars: Disappointed.

EDIT: Speaking of which....why didn't Kylo use the force in any combat scene of this movie? He can stop blaster bolts in mid-air, but all he can do is angrilly swing his sword. Especially in the fight after he killed Snoke. He's clearly made his decision and isn't "conflicted" any more. He should have be throwing people around left and right with the force, or stopping their weapons. Or crushing them outright. As a dark-side user he should be stronger than ever at this point.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Couple years? They could start now with an Old Republic set of movies done by actual good writers. There would be zero conflict with the current movies(other than timing of releases).

Eh, I doubt they'd go for that time period. Besides the hardcore nerds that one is barely known. If Johnson really gets his own trilogy after this weekend I could see it being it's own thing without established characters, mayme some pathetic camoes at best. As for a reboot, given how they've already butchered this universe and killed off all the interesting characters I wouldn't be surprised to see that they might want to start all over again after 9. After 9 people will be detached enough from the previous glory of the franchise and it's lead characters, so that we will probably see them just taking old elements wholesale with younger (cheaper) actors.

[Fostus]

I’m sure my comments will seem defensive. I loved the movie, I can see the issues and can see how they would bug some. I don’t understand the HATE and the seeming desire for it to fail. Been a fan of the OT as long as I can remember and this didn’t ruin any of that for me.

This image is telling:

What this article and graph forgets is that school holidays started the week after TFA came out, unlike for TLJ which lots are just starting this weekend. Still pacing behind but not as catastrophic as they try and make it look.

Well I've thought RT was completely fake for a while now, but this does certainly prove it beyond a shadow of doubt. At best this is a 50/50 movie - to say it scored a 93 is laughable and they deserve to lose some credibility over that.

I am willing to overlook the light speed times that certain characters learned things, and other slights in the film that have been mentioned here. But you can't deny that it's shoddy writing with some terrible plot twist that lead absolutely nowhere and served no purpose what-so-ever in the film.

A 93 is an absurd score for this film.

Full disclosure - I haven't seen Justice League yet.

Do you know how rotten tomatoes works? It means 93% “liked it” or how they put it 93% fresh. Not that the majority scored it 90+ 6/10 is “fresh” then if that’s what most reviewers gave it, it could still get a 93%.

In short a movie with 10 10/10’s and 10 5/10 is 50%. A movie with 10 6/10’s is 100%

[Cosmic Janitor]

Well I've thought RT was completely fake for a while now, but this does certainly prove it beyond a shadow of doubt. At best this is a 50/50 movie - to say it scored a 93 is laughable and they deserve to lose some credibility over that.

I am willing to overlook the light speed times that certain characters learned things, and other slights in the film that have been mentioned here. But you can't deny that it's shoddy writing with some terrible plot twist that lead absolutely nowhere and served no purpose what-so-ever in the film.

A 93 is an absurd score for this film.

Full disclosure - I haven't seen Justice League yet.

These ratings are by individual people who are "recognized" as critics. The fault lies squarely with them, the majority of them being from a certain crowd with an agenda, fearing for their early access to screenings or meta gaming their reviews for clicks. Most of them probably just had bet on people sucking 8 up like they did 7 and giving their score accordingly. Surprisingly this time the material was so abyssmal (besides the pretty graphics) that even the everage joe caught on.

[Jastall]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

It's one thing to gloss over that fighters have to operate at close range of each other. Maybe they literally don't have the right tech to do otherwise. That's...possible, if not plausible. However, ignoring the way that gravity works is kind of crossing the line.

I get why they did it, though. Like everything else that was bad in this movie, it was done because the movie was targeted at children, with children's logic and understanding. But that's one more mistake they're making. Many Star Wars fans have been with the franchise for DECADES. They're adults, with Adult understanding and knowledge, and they'll catch stuff like this and be disappointed.

And that's the last thing you want your audience to feel about the supposed epic story of Star Wars: Disappointed.

EDIT: Speaking of which....why didn't Kylo use the force in any combat scene of this movie? He can stop blaster bolts in mid-air, but all he can do is angrilly swing his sword. Especially in the fight after he killed Snoke. He's clearly made his decision and isn't "conflicted" any more. He should have be throwing people around left and right with the force, or stopping their weapons. Or crushing them outright. As a dark-side user he should be stronger than ever at this point.

It's not that two wrongs make a right, it's that Star Wars has literally never given a single shit about science, and especially about how space actually works, so I'm really unsure why it's suddenly a problem during episode 8. It's like complaining that the zombies in The Walking Dead are biologically impossible after watching the show for 7 seasons. And I daresay that a massive spaceship capsizing like the freaking Titanic after having its bridge blown up is a far more egregious denial of science than a bomber dropping bombs downwards.

As other have said, I really don't see how this film was aimed at children at all. Hell one could argue that trying to shove a narrative about the greater good being more important than your personal heroics into Star Wars of all franchises is the root cause of several of its plot problems. There's a case to be made here, but it requires deft writing, which the film doesn't really have. Even Obsidian tried to tackle this aspect of Star Wars and they stumbled in places, and these guys are better writers than almost anyone in Hollywood.

[SirCowdog]

Eh, I doubt they'd go for that time period. Besides the hardcore nerds that one is barely known. If Johnson really gets his own trilogy after this weekend I could see it being it's own thing without established characters, mayme some pathetic camoes at best. As for a reboot, given how they've already butchered this universe and killed off all the interesting characters I wouldn't be surprised to see that they might want to start all over again after 9. After 9 people will be detached enough from the previous glory of the franchise and it's lead characters, so that we will probably see them just taking old elements wholesale with younger (cheaper) actors.

Hmm...I think you might be underestimating the voracity of Star Wars fans.

Episode 7 and 8 are not terribly well connected to the existing movies via story, since the only reason to have Luke, Leia, Han, or any other major character from the previous films appears to be only to kill them off. And we've seen that Rogue One can be dropped into the mix with a relatively high level of success(or maybe it's just me that thinks it's a better movie?), despite it being about previously unknown characters and story. Granted, it's still framed in the context of the original films.

I don't know. I think it could be done if the writing was good. Especially if the idea was to reboot. It would be a much better "reboot" than starting the original movies over again, like so many Spiderman or Batman films. :/ Do the story of Darth Bane(sans weird space-crab armor), or Revan.

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And I daresay that a massive spaceship capsizing like the freaking Titanic after having its bridge blown up is a far more egregious denial of science than a bomber dropping bombs downwards.

But that's just it. There is no "down" in space! This is a glaring flaw that stuck out like a sore thumb for a LOT of people. Literally everyone I've talked to, online or otherwise, that has seen the movie has commented on how little sense that made. It's in every thread about the movie, just about. Why? Because it's just plain bad.

You're right that Star Wars usuall doesn't give a crap about actual physics in a general sense. And generally speaking that's fine as long as the rest of the scene makes sense. But this one didn't make sense. It was blatantly stupid, and Jar Jar already proved how little people want to see blatant stupidity in the series.

As other have said, I really don't see how this film was aimed at children at all. Hell one could argue that trying to shove a narrative about the greater good being more important than your personal heroics into Star Wars of all franchises is the root cause of several of its plot problems. There's a case to be made here, but it requires deft writing, which the film doesn't really have. Even Obsidian tried to tackle this aspect of Star Wars and they stumbled in places, and these guys are better writers than almost anyone in Hollywood.

I actually agree, to an extent. But I said in my first post in the thread that "The Last Jedi" felt like it was being written by two different people. It's like they were trying to tell two different stories. Unfortunately the one who was writing for children stands out a hell of a lot more, most likely because of how glaringly bad those aspects of the movie were.

Anyway, all I know is that episode 9 better clean the hell up. I'm at the point right now where I don't even care about spoilers. I'm going to find out if the next movie is worth watching in advance before I thrown down my money.

[Deleted]

And if the new series of Star Wars films took a dramatic break from the Space Opera style of the original series and became scrupulously strict about plot exposition you'd have a million fans flooding boards complaining that it didn't feel like the originals. For an example, try looking at how much the prequels tried to involve us all in the detailed plotting around trade disputes rather than sticking to the original series broad brush formula and let me know if you think that was a success?

The story and the setting was a success yes. Far more compelling and interesting than the originals. It was the execution of a great idea that was extremely bad, so the movies weren't great. The idea behind them was.

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The film showed you multiple destroyed star destroyers on Jakku. They also told you that the first order rose in secret.

How do you convert an entire planet into a weapon capable of destroying planets in secret? That shit should've taken 20-50 years to build.

[Arrowstormen]

Well I've thought RT was completely fake for a while now, but this does certainly prove it beyond a shadow of doubt. At best this is a 50/50 movie - to say it scored a 93 is laughable and they deserve to lose some credibility over that.

I am willing to overlook the light speed times that certain characters learned things, and other slights in the film that have been mentioned here. But you can't deny that it's shoddy writing with some terrible plot twist that lead absolutely nowhere and served no purpose what-so-ever in the film.

A 93 is an absurd score for this film.

Full disclosure - I haven't seen Justice League yet.

I continue to be amazed at people not being able to understand Rotten Tomatoes' "scores".

[Cosmic Janitor]

Hmm...I think you might be underestimating the voracity of Star Wars fans.

Episode 7 and 8 are not terribly well connected to the existing movies via story, since the only reason to have Luke, Leia, Han, or any other major character from the previous films appears to be only to kill them off. And we've seen that Rogue One can be dropped into the mix with a relatively high level of success(or maybe it's just me that thinks it's a better movie?), despite it being about previously unknown characters and story. Granted, it's still framed in the context of the original films.

I don't know. I think it could be done if the writing was good. Especially if the idea was to reboot. It would be a much better "reboot" than starting the original movies over again, like so many Spiderman or Batman films. :/ Do the story of Darth Bane(sans weird space-crab armor), or Revan.

Most of the general audience that these movies attract just want to see pretty pictures for and hour or two. Some of them have vague memories of previous star wars films, which is why previously established heroes from the OT were there to get some of the older viewers to the cinemas. That they get killed off is done so that they can focus on the new heroes after they "successfully" hooked older viewers (and potentially their kids) on the new characters. Once that is done the old ones are just in the way, and as seen with Fisher, a potential problem, because old people are more likely to kick the bucket between films - or worse during production even. Add to that all the merchandise strategy these days, which works way better with cutsie new stuff or younger people, and you end up with the desire to change the cast as much as possible. Establishing characters that could actually start to want real money after a couple of installments is a bad thing these days, better kill them off and replace them while they are fresh .

Either way, the old guard is done for by now, and if they reboot the franchise or if they keep making unconnected movies doesn't matter. The first option just serves to catch some of the tangentially interest, easy going "fans" of the franchise, as it tells "their favorite" story again. It works for super hero movies, why wouldn't it work here?

[snplisk]

This guy has an interesting idea of how the story should have roughly gone for this new trilogy:

skip to 27:15 for the his take on how things should have been.



It's a rough idea on the spot but honestly if it was professionally fleshed out I think it would've made an excellent story. They even could have kept the political messaging and virtue signaling that is becoming increasingly rampant in this trilogy while still producing a movie that is watchable with a good story. As it stands right now, from a purely story perspective this movie makes the prequel trilogy seem like a masterpiece.

[Arrowstormen]

This guy has an interesting idea of how the story should have roughly gone for this new trilogy:

skip to 27:15 for the his take on how things should have been.

[video=youtube_share;VdLQaO552RE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdLQaO552RE&feature=youtu.be&t=1639[deo]

It's a rough idea on the spot but honestly if it was professionally fleshed out I think it would've made an excellent story. They even could have kept the political messaging and virtue signaling that is becoming increasingly rampant in this trilogy while still producing a movie that is watchable with a good story. As it stands right now, from a purely story perspective this movie makes the prequel trilogy seem like a masterpiece.

"Why the new trilogy is dead..."

It isn't. By any readable metric.

[Cosmic Janitor]

How do you convert an entire planet into a weapon capable of destroying planets in secret? That shit should've taken 20-50 years to build.

Neither Abrams nor Johnson have even an ounce of common sense, knowledge of basic high school science and/or the scope of space, that much should be clear after the last 2 films.

[snplisk]

"Why the new trilogy is dead..."

It isn't. By any readable metric.

Sorry can you please quote where I said it was or what that even has to do with my post? Or do you just prefer to respond with red herrings?

[xezar]

So most of my dislikes about the movie have been addressed, so won't bother going into it other than hoping Rian Johnson gets kicked to the curb for the next trilogy set.

I'd love to see KOTOR done as a film series, but at the same time...kinda dreading how they'd change stuff. Being a videogame you do have a lot more fantasical jedi powers that aren't ever shown or merely glimpsed (such as the speed boost shown in episode 1) in the movies, so it would be toned down a lot. But the story is a good one, and Revan would be more unique to show as a jedi who became a sith lord and then a redeemed jedi.