[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Arrowstormen]

Sorry can you please quote where I said it was or what that even has to do with my post? Or do you just prefer to respond with red herrings?

How about you check out the name of the video your post is all about?

[snplisk]

How about you check out the name of the video your post is all about?

Should I do that before or after you learn to even read a post and comprehend some English? You can start with the fact that I was solely referencing this guy's idea regarding plot and even instructed to skip to 27 minutes in for the actual subject matter.

[Arrowstormen]

Should I do that before or after you learn to even read a post and comprehend some English? You can start with the fact that I was solely referencing this guy's idea regarding plot and even instructed to skip to 27 minutes in for the actual subject matter.

Problem with that is, that if I don't agree with the first part, I'm probably not going to agree to the second part. Because I happen to think the story and writing in these first two movies has been just fine. Heck, as I've already said, The Last Jedi is probably the most intelligently written Star Wars movie yet.

Also, did he really call having a female lead an "ideology"?

[eschatological]

So most of my dislikes about the movie have been addressed, so won't bother going into it other than hoping Rian Johnson gets kicked to the curb for the next trilogy set.

I'd love to see KOTOR done as a film series, but at the same time...kinda dreading how they'd change stuff. Being a videogame you do have a lot more fantasical jedi powers that aren't ever shown or merely glimpsed (such as the speed boost shown in episode 1) in the movies, so it would be toned down a lot. But the story is a good one, and Revan would be more unique to show as a jedi who became a sith lord and then a redeemed jedi.

Does anyone else think KOTOR would make a shit movie? Cause I do. KOTOR is great because it's an RPG. That'll never translate to a movie, and people are already frustrated with the expansion of Force powers in this one.

I went to see this a second time yesterday with family - my sister, my brother-in-law, and his sister. My brother-in-law, at least, is "a Star Wars fan" but not a nerd. The sisters are in their 30s and saw the OT in their childhood in the 80s. They all loved it. They loved the humor, and thought the only jarring bit of humor was Leia saying to Luke "I know, I changed my hair" because they thought it should have been a more serious moment, as it was the first time they saw each other in like 15 years. That piece of humor didn't even register with me on the jarring scale, as Leia had always had that kind of sarcastic tone to me. My brother-in-law, who again, professes to be a "Star Wars fan" loved the movie.

On my second viewing, the flaws didn't seem worse, and the better parts seemed better, because you noticed more about how the dialogue was connecting up and the shots were lining up. The emotion behind some of the acting resonated better. I don't understand why people hate the animals so much, and I think that's just a lot of outside resentment about the "Disney-ification" of the movies, even though RotJ had Ewoks and they even made a fucking Christmas Special back in the 80s just to sell toys which was so abysmal it's almost apocryphal at this point. Porgs are fine, I'm not going to rush out to buy a plushie, but I don't really see them different from Chewie, tbh. The crystal dogs served a plot purpose I guess, though it was weird that no one was like, "Hey, why are these dogs here?" until they needed them to get out of the cave. The racing beasts on Canto Bight - whatever. I got the idea of the animal cruelty, but their CGI was meh and the whole racing through the casino thing was so prequel-cringey.

The performances really stood out this time. Just Mark Hamill's three different scenes in the three flashbacks illustrating the three different emotions the storytellers were trying to convey.....excellent stuff.

I didn't have a problem with the Snoke or Rey's parentage reveals in the first viewing, and I liked them even better the second time. Yoda was even better the second time too.

[snplisk]

Problem with that is, that if I don't agree with the first part, I'm probably not going to agree to the second part. Because I happen to think the story and writing in these first two movies has been just fine. Heck, as I've already said, The Last Jedi is probably the most intelligently written Star Wars movie yet.

Also, did he really call having a female lead an "ideology"?

Thanks for letting us know about the dogmatic workings of your brain, and no he didn't.

Again, if you could comprehend you would know that the ideology is having this mary sue front and center with quite literally every other character having 0 meaningful backstory, especially the one that needs it most which is the primary antagonist, solely because it has to be all about the powerful female lead. She can be the lead, she can be the central heroine that saves the day. But the story should have started with Kylo and his journey to the dark side. Then it should have introduced Rey and her journey overcoming many challenges to go from a nobody to the galaxy's last hope. This guy is right, you need to set up both sides of the story and they need to be meaningful.

[Arrowstormen]

Thanks for letting us know about the dogmatic workings of your brain, and no he didn't.

Again, if you could comprehend you would know that the ideology is having this mary sue front and center with quite literally every other character having 0 meaningful backstory, especially the one that needs it most which is the primary antagonist, solely because it has to be all about the powerful female lead. She can be the lead, she can be the central heroine that saves the day. But the story should have started with Kylo and his journey to the dark side. Then it should have introduced Rey and her journey overcoming many challenges to go from a nobody to the galaxy's last hope. This guy is right, you need to set up both sides of the story and they need to be meaningful.

The "Rey is a Mary Sue" point of view is one I not only don't agree with, I find it hard to take people who cling to it seriously. And having an origin movie for Kylo doesn't sound that interesting? It's not like that movie would give us any info we don't have that we need. The way they've revealed Kylo Ren and told Ben's story in the last two movies has been plenty fine. The last Star Wars trilogy was about a character's fall to the dark side, and it wasn't really all that interesting.

[Nefarious Tea]

And I daresay that a massive spaceship capsizing like the freaking Titanic after having its bridge blown up is a far more egregious denial of science than a bomber dropping bombs downwards.

That kind of makes sense though. The battle in ROTJ is happening in orbit of Endor's moon, which is large enough to be roughly Earth-like (literally west-coast redwood rainforest). With the Executor's bridge destroyed, it loses station-keeping and begins to be gravitationally attracted to three things:

1. the gas giant Endor
2. its moon
3. the 160-km radius (or possibly 200km - the canon conflicts itself on the size) second Death Star

Any three of those are more than big enough to pull something only 7km long down with gravity; but all three are there, roughly lined up, and thus pulling on it in all the same direction. Having it smash perfectly nose-first into the Death Star is kind of unlikely, but where it explodes in a fiery conflagration is the only unrealistic part of that scene, and honestly it looks good enough from a cinematographic perspective to be forgiven.

[Archon14]

Again, if you could comprehend you would know that the ideology is having this mary sue front and center with quite literally every other character having 0 meaningful backstory, especially the one that needs it most which is the primary antagonist, solely because it has to be all about the powerful female lead.

Are you being serious right now? Kylo was the most developed character, and unlike Rey he actually had a backstory. Not one character was front and center, Rey was connected to Luke through her training, Luke was connected to Kylo through their past, and Kylo was connected to Rey through the force bond (lets call it a "smaller fake" force bond).
All of them had their own demons to explore and their own desires to achieve. And other characters like Poe and Finn had their own arcs and they were also given plenty of screen time.

Having Kylo's scenes before scenes with Rey serves no purpose but to satisfy your need to WAH WAH WAH SHE CANT BE FIRST SHE CANT BE A LEAD CHARACTER.

[snplisk]

The "Rey is a Mary Sue" point of view is one I not only don't agree with, I find it hard to take people who cling to it seriously. And having an origin movie for Kylo doesn't sound that interesting? It's not like that movie would give us any info we don't have that we need. The way they've revealed Kylo Ren and told Ben's story in the last two movies has been plenty fine.

First of all Rey is the definition of a Mary Sue, it's ironic because all the focus they put on her and even her story is quite literally trash. There's no struggle, there's no meaningful journey, there's no sacrifice, her plot in this story is essentially akin to someone in the LFR theme park getting welfare epics to put in other terms.

The first movie would not be an origin story about Kylo, again if you could actually comprehend and watched the plot idea that guy has, it would instead be a movie that documents his journey to the dark side while simultaneously concluding the stories for major characters of the universe including Leia, Han, and Luke. It would leave us with a cliffhanger in which the resistance is completely fractured, the last remaining Skywalker has been manipulated to the dark side by Snoke, and all the central iconic figures that would be instrumental in opposing in this threat are dead and gone.

The second movie is where you introduce the heroine Rey, she rises from the ashes (metaphorically). Starting out as some orphaned nobody she ascends to becoming the last hope for the galaxy and the central figure in opposing Snoke and Kylo. Her journey should be a meaningful one. Get rid of the Mary Sue shit. She should struggle, she should overcome challenges, but in the end she perseveres. At the same time, the potential threat we were left with in the first movie starts to materialize more, like this guy suggest you could have groups out there that are literally Skywalker acolytes and have joined Kylo on the dark side as the last remaining Skywalker in the galaxy. This is where the first order comes from, not just out of nowhere. This should still be minor portion of the movie though, the main focus should be almost exclusively on Rey's journey.

This sets up a classic good vs. evil story arch which is what Star Wars was always about, but one with an actual story that makes sense and has some meaning.

Are you being serious right now? Kylo was the most developed character, and unlike Rey he actually had a backstory. Not one character was front and center, Rey was connected to Luke through her training, Luke was connected to Kylo through their past, and Kylo was connected to Rey through the force bond (lets call it a "smaller fake" force bond).
All of them had their own demons to explore and their own desires to achieve. And other characters like Poe and Finn had their own arcs and they were also given plenty of screen time.

Having Kylo's scenes before scenes with Rey serves no purpose but to satisfy your need to WAH WAH WAH SHE CANT BE FIRST SHE CANT BE A LEAD CHARACTER.

Yeah, you're honestly just retarded. Kylo's story is shit, Rey's story is shit. Kylo should have had his origin story as part of the first movie as well as the conclusion of the iconic characters tied into that and the new threat that comes out of it all. Rey should have had her own movie dedicated to her, but should have been after the threat has been outlined in the first movie. Kylo should have had very little screen time in this movie, it would be all about her journey (a real one).

And don't give me this shit about female leads, she would be the lead she would be the heroine that saves the day. I have a problem with shit writing and that includes everyone including Rey and Kylo. One of my favorite movies and franchises of all time is Alien and the main character is a woman.

Infracted

[Cosmic Janitor]

Just agree to disagree. I doubt you could ever find common ground with someone who honestly thinks a plot worse than the one of The Force Unleashed translates to "best written star wars yet". And while I agree that Rey is one of the most egregious Mary Sue examples of all time and it's bewilidering that the people who love to point that out in every other franchise suddenly turn a blind eye here, I still think the idea of structuring the movies that way would not work. The core premise of pushing an agenda would not work that way, which is the whole reason why the movies are in the state they are. Adding this to the plot might make it more comprehensive, but comes with a ton of other issues. Starting off in an unfamilar setting also has it's charme, but the mystery needs to unravel as the story unfolds. That would mean they'd have to explain it during the first movie while also keep the current direction of the movie. Introducing the hero(ine) in the 2nd episode works in short term serialized media, not with films with a 2 year wait inbetween them.

[snplisk]

Just agree to disagree. I doubt you could ever find common ground with someone who honestly thinks a plot worse than the one of The Force Unleashed translates to "best written star wars yet". And while I agree that Rey is one of the worst egregious Mary Sue examples of all time and the people that love to point that out in every other franchise suddenly turn a blind eye here, I still think the idea of structuring the movies that way would not work. The core premise of pushing an agenda would not work that way, which is the whole reason why the movies are in the state they are. Starting off in an unfamilar setting also has it's charme, but the mystery needs to unravel as the story unfolds. That would mean they'd have to explain it during the first movie while also keep the current direction of the movie. Introducing the hero(ine) in the 2nd episode works in short term serialized media, not with films with a 2 year wait inbetween them.

Yeah I should not have even responded after he said that.

I'm not saying I'm a professional writer or that this guy in the video is, and these a just some rough ideas. All I'm saying is that give these ideas some professional workups and you could have a movie that would come close to living up to the original Star Wars trilogy, at least better than this one did. But this is one example, there are many other ways you can restructure this or different ideas completely. I just know the direction this trilogy is going with the story makes me think paying to watch prequel reruns is a better use of my money and time.

But following this hypothetical story for a second, the reason you introduce Rey in movie 2 is because the story is already established. You want to wrap up the storylines of the previous characters while using them as effectively as you can. Which would be to explain why there's even a threat in the first place since the Empire is gone. They already decided on Kylo, Rey, and the general direction, these suggestions are just working within their framework. Introducing the hero in movie 2 after the threat has already been established in movie 1 doubles also as a throwback to the original movie where Luke's journey began with his simple life being interrupted by events resulting from the conflict. Rey's story could have started like this as well, with some events caused by Kylo and the newly formed First Order pushing her onto her path, and you come back full circle.

But then again, this sets up the first movie to be very doom and gloom. I'm not sure how audiences would react to that so you may be right but on the other hand the hype and nostalgia seems to be carrying this one just fine (financially) so I can't see how it would fare any worse.

It's just an idea honestly and the details don't matter too much to me as long as the story is good, because I seriously would have preferred anything to the plot abortion that is this new trilogy.

[Kathranis]

Well I've thought RT was completely fake for a while now, but this does certainly prove it beyond a shadow of doubt. At best this is a 50/50 movie - to say it scored a 93 is laughable and they deserve to lose some credibility over that.

I am willing to overlook the light speed times that certain characters learned things, and other slights in the film that have been mentioned here. But you can't deny that it's shoddy writing with some terrible plot twist that lead absolutely nowhere and served no purpose what-so-ever in the film.

A 93 is an absurd score for this film.

Full disclosure - I haven't seen Justice League yet.

That's not how RT works. It aggregates critic reviews and assigns a number based on how many reviews were "generally positive."

93 means 93% of critics gave it a passing grade, not that it has an average review score of 93.

Of course this is all another problem with RT. A completely mediocre can still wind up with a high rating if critics don't have the guts to flunk it outright, even if they only offer faint praise.


Not that I feel many critics are trustworthy with a property like Star Wars. I cant trust media outlets who are actively engaged in promoting the very things the critique.

The number of articles going up the last week defending the movie is specious at best, since the general opinion of the public is definitely mixed. Not a single one of my friends thought it was especially good and we all agree it has glaring flaws.

And, I mean, what kind of scumbag journalist feels the need to defend a huge corporate blockbuster produced by a bunch of heartless suits to sell merchandise? It's not like Star Wars is at risk as a franchise.

I mean, where was all this passion from bloggers and critics when nobody was going to see Blade Runner 2049? That movie completely puts TLJ to shame. It's so obviously just about protecting the Star Wars brand.


I really hope Disney will give Kathleen Kennedy the boot. She's totally mismanaging the franchise. After hearing Johnson's pitch for his own trilogy I have no doubt about that. Maybe someone like Dave Filoni, he has an obvious vision and passion. His shows have been putting the movies to shame for years and years.

[Archon14]

Yeah, you're honestly just retarded. Kylo's story is shit, Rey's story is shit.

Yes, because different tastes in movies means that one side must be retarded. Feel free to dislike the movie, just don't give me those bullshit reasons that 99% of people that hated the movie tend to give.
I found their stories interesting. You keep talking about her being a heroine that saves the day, yet it was Luke who saved what's left of the Resistance (including Rey)...

And that Alien analogy is pointless, "I like this movie that features a female lead character, therefore I can never be ignorant and bigoted about anything in my life."

[snplisk]

Yes, because different tastes in movies means that one side must be retarded.

If you look at my post you would see that I bolded part of the quote. That's why you're retarded.

Insulting other users isn't allowed. Let's try to keep it civil.

[Archon14]

If you look at my post you would see that I bolded part of the quote. That's why you're retarded.

Hey, I'm not the one having problems with a character for reasons I consider to be "shitty".

- - - Updated - - -

And, I mean, what kind of scumbag journalist feels the need to defend a huge corporate blockbuster produced by a bunch of heartless suits to sell merchandise? It's not like Star Wars is at risk as a franchise.

There are always some paid reviews out there. The bigger the movie, the bigger the chance (or the amount). And I'm talking about both the positive and negative ones. There have definitely been people out there thrashing new movies, with a hidden agenda.

You also have those "internet journalists" that will try to create controversies for the number of clicks.

[snplisk]

That's not how RT works. It aggregates critic reviews and assigns a number based on how many reviews were "generally positive."

93 means 93% of critics gave it a passing grade, not that it has an average review score of 93.

Of course this is all another problem with RT. A completely mediocre can still wind up with a high rating if critics don't have the guts to flunk it outright, even if they only offer faint praise.


Not that I feel many critics are trustworthy with a property like Star Wars. I cant trust media outlets who are actively engaged in promoting the very things the critique.

The number of articles going up the last week defending the movie is specious at best, since the general opinion of the public is definitely mixed. Not a single one of my friends thought it was especially good and we all agree it has glaring flaws.

And, I mean, what kind of scumbag journalist feels the need to defend a huge corporate blockbuster produced by a bunch of heartless suits to sell merchandise? It's not like Star Wars is at risk as a franchise.

I mean, where was all this passion from bloggers and critics when nobody was going to see Blade Runner 2049? That movie completely puts TLJ to shame. It's so obviously just about protecting the Star Wars brand.


I really hope Disney will give Kathleen Kennedy the boot. She's totally mismanaging the franchise. After hearing Johnson's pitch for his own trilogy I have no doubt about that. Maybe someone like Dave Filoni, he has an obvious vision and passion. His shows have been putting the movies to shame for years and years.

There are multiple factors going into this I think. Actual reviewers like Roger Ebert are gone, not many are left. The ones we're got now have no real understanding of cinema. A lot of reviewers also get kickbacks sometimes, it's not exclusive to the dorito king and games. Many reviewers are just extreme fans and want it to be good. And lastly any movie with large amounts of virtual signalling, which this new trilogy is definitely taking to new heights, automatically gets a large number of positive reviews. They don't even try to hide it, if you read some of these reviews they tell you that's why they gave it a good review. Just look at that dumpster fire that was the Ghostbusters remake.

I would say that the difference between Blade Runner 2049 and this is that nobody was complaining about BR. It was an excellent movie with excellent writing, a great and proven director, and top notch acting. But it was rated R, TLJ is rated PG, and it didn't have the hype or marketing machines behind it. It also doesn't have the level of fanboyism that SW does, especially among "professional reviewers".

[Jastall]

That kind of makes sense though. The battle in ROTJ is happening in orbit of Endor's moon, which is large enough to be roughly Earth-like (literally west-coast redwood rainforest). With the Executor's bridge destroyed, it loses station-keeping and begins to be gravitationally attracted to three things:

1. the gas giant Endor
2. its moon
3. the 160-km radius (or possibly 200km - the canon conflicts itself on the size) second Death Star

Any three of those are more than big enough to pull something only 7km long down with gravity; but all three are there, roughly lined up, and thus pulling on it in all the same direction. Having it smash perfectly nose-first into the Death Star is kind of unlikely, but where it explodes in a fiery conflagration is the only unrealistic part of that scene, and honestly it looks good enough from a cinematographic perspective to be forgiven.

Putting aside the fact that it's a shittily designed ship that has its bridge so exposed and ties essential stabilizing system into such a target, we can then use the same kind of logic to assume that bombers don't just drop their bombs, but propel them. Boom, Science! is saved. As for why said bombers decide to do that when they're above their targets rather than just lob bombs from a distance, well it's the same kind of logic that has ultra advanced space fighters dogfight like WW1 biplanes in atmospheric conditions, or everyone using slow and inaccurate lasers instead of proven kinetic weapons which would also be far more effective against Force users.

[Zeek Daniels]

She also kicks the shit out of Kylo Ren, lifts tons of boulders, does a mind trick after not knowing what the force is a day earlier, and just seems perfect.

How long would you say it takes a jedi to do a mind trick based on movies alone? Has it ever been explicitly stated how long it takes to trick someone weak of mind? How long would you say it takes a force user to use the force based on movies alone? Has it ever been explicitly stated how long it takes a force user to use the force to do anything?

Your assuming alot of things. Mastery of the force does not equal use of the force. Please get that through your head. Vader was using the force at a young age to help him pod race and he didnt even know it.

[Archon14]

Mastery of the force does not equal use of the force. Please get that through your head. Vader was using the force at a young age to help him pod race and he didnt even know it.

If you look at force users, especially in the expanded universe, there's been tons of examples of force affecting people in different ways since they were small children (and actually giving them powers). You have Anakin in Phantom Menace, you have Vaylin in the Fallen Empire, you have Starkiller in the Force Unleashed.

People often need to see a physical representation of power, and not think about how the hell some characters could do "normal things" so good? And possibly at such a young age.

[eschatological]

Leave the discussion of virtue signaling and pushing ideologies in GenOT, please. Get back on topic of discussing the actual film.