If your business can't function without underpaying employees it shouldnt exist

[Lochton]

I mean it sounds like a "duh" but there actually are some people that believe its ok to pay young recruits with "experience" cause they're too lazy to come up with a solid plan or just plain greedy.

Don't give me the free market nutter bs, if you work 35h/week or whatever duration is your legal standard you should be paid a decent living wage regardless of the nature of the job.

I agree with you but you're on a wrong ladder, mate. The first step is for sociaty to accept the development and changes before a company can safely do the changes as well. Else, I agree with you fully. But as long as you have people believing that if you have fulltime hours at a grill, you don't deserve a full wage because it isn't a 'real job', that'll make changes go slower.

[Deleted]

Here are the things that actually cause unemployment in standard economic models:


None of them are your "it's blackmail from the corporate man, man!".

Of course, I am being a dick about it. I hold your ideas in contempt and think you're not even a good representation of Marxism. You don't really even attempt to fight back with evidence, just a bit of whining, so it's not really necessarily to treat you like a serious interlocutor.

"This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by adding citation"

So, more make-believe nonsense from your free market nutter friends ?

[Theodarzna]

Source: https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/201...stics-released

Not an asspull, if anything it's a conservative estimate.

1.2 violent offenders / 4.6 million people = 26% reduction. That means I only need to bank on 322,000 people to have been too lazy to apply themselves to getting a real career to reach the 33% reduction.

So it is an asspull, you are inferring the crime stats and the other stats are indeed related.

[Varitok]

American's seem to be brainwashed into being against their own self interest, the interest of the people they know and family. These big corporations will sit and moan about having to give a fair, living wage to people and then turn around and give all their board members 100 million dollar bonuses. They would rather lay off employees then lower their own bonuses. I don't agree with communism, I am not a fan of its ideas but it will become a whole lot more popular with how the US is heading, the income gaps and the treatment of workers will reach a boiling point but maybe it's for the better that people get riled up.

[Spectral]

"This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by adding citation"

So, more make-believe nonsense from your free market nutter friends ?

It's pretty basic labor market economics. I realize that Marxist cranks have absurd alternative explanations, but "blackmail by companies" is an utterly ridiculous version of what causes unemployment.

The part where you don't recognize what I quoted as pretty basic labor economics is a good example of what I mean when I say you're too economically illiterate to meaningfully engage with. It's the equivalent of a young-earther that's not even familiar with carbon-dating - the appropriate response is scorn and mockery.

[Deleted]

It's pretty basic labor market economics. I realize that Marxist cranks have absurd alternative explanations, but "blackmail by companies" is an utterly ridiculous version of what causes unemployment.

okay then I'll just pretend companies are not constantly waving the threat of outsourcing and automation to scare away from higher wages like they did when the 15$ an hour debate was still on and like they're currently doing in france with macron labor reforms

you're still having troubles with reading apparently cause I never said it caused unemployment I said it caused wage stagnation

[Spectral]

you're still having troubles with reading apparently cause I never said it caused unemployment I said it caused wage stagnation

Is unemployment blackmail to fuel a race to the bottom in working conditions the kind of society we want to live in ?

This is why I say that you're incoherent. If "blackmail" isn't causing unemployment, then the model of unemployment as blackmail is simply not coherent. Unemployment exists for the reasons I outlined in the previous post - it's not "blackmail", it's a fact about how labor market work due to friction and structural issues. Framing this as a situation that companies can exploit in the aggregate doesn't make any economic sense either - the labor market doesn't consist of a colluded mass of employers, it consists of individual employers with individual incentives.

You're not building a mental model of the world that can maintain internal consistency and predict behaviors of companies, you're just fitting everything you see to fit into the propaganda you've bought into.

okay then I'll just pretend companies are not constantly waving the threat of outsourcing and automation to scare away from higher wages like they did when the 15$ an hour debate was still on and like they're currently doing in france with macron labor reforms

These aren't "threats", they're facts about how the world works. When artificially high labor costs are imposed, one expected response is an increase in automation. Maybe it's a good policy anyway, but refusing to acknowledge the tradeoff is fantasy thinking.

[Juuza]

In this thread:
Big companies make tons of money
I deserve some of that money because i want it
They should share.
All of it.
If they wont, we should make them.
By force.

not my force, of course. I'm a nice guy. I wan't others to force them.
but not force me, of course.

What, work for it? Hell no.

[Machismo]

And how do you do that when you don't have time because you're working 2-3 jobs or you simply can't afford further education?

Please inform us with your great knowledge.

If you are working 2-3 jobs, then you have a string of failures up to that point that you should take responsibility for.

[Deleted]

This is why I say that you're incoherent. If "blackmail" isn't causing unemployment, then the model of unemployment as blackmail is simply not coherent. Unemployment exists for the reasons I outlined in the previous post - it's not "blackmail", it's a fact about how labor market work due to friction and structural issues. Framing this as a situation that companies can exploit in the aggregate doesn't make any economic sense either - the labor market doesn't consist of a colluded mass of employers, it consists of individual employers with individual incentives.

What's so hard to understand ?

"Accept wage x of we won't hire you" that's unemployment blackmail. Whether it is inherent to the labor market or not doesn't change that fact.

The french MEDEF, which is the national union of business owners has been crying for years now and explicitly told the public they would only hire if they got :
1- tax breaks / subsidies
2- weakened social protections for full time employees
3- easier lay-off process

Its not interpretation or bias its what employers themselves told and that's exactly the content of the very mediatic 2016 labor law that caused violent protests back then. The unemployment rate is literally the only figure politicians care about and it is often the defining characteristic of a presidency. So of course they're very receptive to these threats.

You're not building a mental model of the world that can maintain internal consistency and predict behaviors of companies, you're just fitting everything you see to fit into the propaganda you've bought into.

These aren't "threats", they're facts about how the world works. When artificially high labor costs are imposed, one expected response is an increase in automation. Maybe it's a good policy anyway, but refusing to acknowledge the tradeoff is fantasy thinking.

Its really cute you think you aren't full of propaganda and preconceived ideas yourself. Especially after appealing multiple time to the authority of "basic economics" which are so perfect and universal that the whole system regularly burns and crashes but yeah nvm.

[Aggrophobic]

Because that's always a viable option for everyone. Right.

Come back when you have a non-fictional argument.

In many cases, it is.
Also, if you refuse to put in the effort to get a good education then you don't really deserve a well payed job.

Now there might be cases where thats not possible and that sure sucks. In most western countries though, you really only have yourself to blame for not making it to at least a decent wage.

[Beardless Man]

Cute Kurata.
Love your sources and your proof that this is a good argument and we should all nod in agreement.
Demand that living wage from every business. that'll save our crippling economy.

[Machismo]

A string of failures like what? Being born poor? Having some sort of mental disability that makes performing in school much more difficult?

Or about the people who have the misfortune of being born in a shitty family? Or going through some sort of natural disaster or otherwise where they lose everything?

Not every person in that situation is there because of their own fault. Even IF they are, you're essentially condemning them to having a shitty life and never being given the oppturnity to change it.

The vast majority of poor people are there as a result of their (or their parents') decisions. I have no problem willingly helping those who got shafted by their parents. I have no desire to help those who continuously make piss poor choices in life.

People are responsible for the consequences of their own actions, it really is that simple.

[Masark]

You keep saying "underpaid" but they're paid exactly what they're worth.

Incorrect. They are paid strictly less than what they are worth, and as much less as you can get away with. If they were being paid exactly what their work was worth, you wouldn't be making any profit.

[Moshots]

okay then I'll just pretend companies are not constantly waving the threat of outsourcing and automation to scare away from higher wages like they did when the 15$ an hour debate was still on and like they're currently doing in france with macron labor reforms

you're still having troubles with reading apparently cause I never said it caused unemployment I said it caused wage stagnation

why would they pay you 15 bucks when they can pay pablo in mexico 3 dollars an hour and pay 7 dollars per item/manhour to import?

If we made minimum wage 15 bucks here's what would happen..

A gallon of milk would go up 50%
a cheeseburger would go up 50%
a pizza would go up 50%
Real job salaries would probably go up 20-30%
CEO salaries would probably go up 20-30%
cost of everything would rise 20-30%

the dollar would then devalue in the global market and we would resettle at you still not making enough money to pay your bills but you would be making more..... Much like the Canadian dollar (which at one time was almost 1-1 with US) your more wouldn't mean shit.

[tyrlaan]

In many cases, it is.
Also, if you refuse to put in the effort to get a good education then you don't really deserve a well payed job.

Now there might be cases where thats not possible and that sure sucks. In most western countries though, you really only have yourself to blame for not making it to at least a decent wage.

So in addition to effectively victim blaming someone who either can't afford a better education (for example), you also support the hypocrisy of expecting people to do jobs like "flip burgers" while also blaming them for not doing enough to get a better job?

Cute Kurata.
Love your sources and your proof that this is a good argument and we should all nod in agreement.
Demand that living wage from every business. that'll save our crippling economy.

Crippling economy? Which country are you talking about exactly?

The vast majority of poor people are there as a result of their (or their parents') decisions. I have no problem willingly helping those who got shafted by their parents. I have no desire to help those who continuously make piss poor choices in life.

People are responsible for the consequences of their own actions, it really is that simple.

Ah rolling out the classic poor people deserve the suffering they endure crap, eh? Do you have evidence to back that up or are you just repeating the GOP propaganda you've been chugging down?

why would they pay you 15 bucks when they can pay pablo in mexico 3 dollars an hour and pay 7 dollars per item/manhour to import?

If we made minimum wage 15 bucks here's what would happen..

A gallon of milk would go up 50%
a cheeseburger would go up 50%
a pizza would go up 50%
Real job salaries would probably go up 20-30%
CEO salaries would probably go up 20-30%
cost of everything would rise 20-30%

the dollar would then devalue in the global market and we would resettle at you still not making enough money to pay your bills but you would be making more..... Much like the Canadian dollar (which at one time was almost 1-1 with US) your more wouldn't mean shit.

Those are some weird stats since I don't recall these increases happening in places or companies that have instituted a $15 minimum wage. Got some stats to back this up or just pissing in the wind?

Also curious how much they pay Fernando from Mexico, or if it's just Pablo that gets $3 an hour.

[Aggrophobic]

So in addition to effectively victim blaming someone who either can't afford a better education (for example), you also support the hypocrisy of expecting people to do jobs like "flip burgers" while also blaming them for not doing enough to get a better job?

Pretty much yes. Flip burgers while you study if you can't get a loan. There usually are options.
Or sit around feeling sorry for yourslef, I don't really care either way.

[Masark]

Pretty much yes. Flip burgers while you study if you can't get a loan.

Except due to wages not keeping up with cost of living (and particularly, not keeping up with tuition), that is not possible.

[Machismo]

Your claim is blatantly false.

- - - Updated - - -



No. It wouldn't. You have such a severe lack of understanding of economics that you saying anything about this topic is just embarrassing for yourself.

Which claim, that most people who are poor, are there by their own actions? When I was poor, I knew exactly how I got there, and it was by my own bad choices in life. Now, you clearly hang out with a lot of poor people who work 2-3 jobs, so tell me why they are poor. How many of them finished college? How many of them waited until they were financially secure before having children? How many of them avoided drugs? How many of them eliminated luxury spending?

[Aggrophobic]

Except due to wages not keeping up with cost of living (and particularly, not keeping up with tuition), that is not possible.

Of course it is. Live cheaper, get a room mate, work more hours.