Trump Approves Lethal Weapon Sales to Ukraine

[KOMO1211]

which has been neglected and underdeveloped by the West since the end of the Cold War for some really lousy reasons.

M289 and periodic updates/upgrades to M270 I wouldn't count as neglecting. im a huge fan of artillery in a conventional war setting, but I feel as if the US has shifted away from more conventional artillery in favor of precision munitions and medium-long range missiles such as the tomahawk as well as close air support via choppers,A10s (love me some GAU8,live not far from Whiteman AFB and used to see these guys and B2s overhead all the time) and drones (especially as drones become more prolific) at least that's what im seeing from military video from Iraq and the likes.

[Skroe]

M289 and periodic updates/upgrades to M270 I wouldn't count as neglecting. im a huge fan of artillery in a conventional war setting, but I feel as if the US has shifted away from more conventional artillery in favor of precision munitions and medium-long range missiles such as the tomahawk as well as close air support via choppers,A10s (love me some GAU8,live not far from Whiteman AFB and used to see these guys and B2s overhead all the time) and drones (especially as drones become more prolific) at least that's what im seeing from military video from Iraq and the likes.

The shortfall, as I understand it is that.

- The US Army and Marines have put aisde (and were in the process of phasing out) cluster artillery. Russia has advanced theirs.

- US Artillery range has gone from being superior to Russia's to well short of it. Namely Russia's guns have a longer barrel now.

and most importantly.

- Russia has deeply integrated cheap, low level tactical drones to act as spotters for artillery. While they have nothing within a light year of drones like the MQ-9, Global Hawk, or RQ-170, they have been significantly more successful at training their battlefield units to use drones to gather situational awareness that US forces have not yet done, largely due to the needs of the War in Afghanistan and bureaucratic infighting at the Pentagon (that'll want to buy a $3 million "cheap" drone for the job.

Also there is Russia's lead in Short Ranged Air Defense, that the US is now just rebuilding after a decade of demobilization. Thanks Al Qaeda.

[Shalcker]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sourc...ry?id=51957745



Good. Very good. A good start.

Next up, we should give them Counter-Artillery Radar and some Centurion C-RAMs.

They already had those, we captured two American counter-artillery radars in Debaltsevo.

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Pictured: A Russian armored vehicle loaded with TWENTY FOUR ICBMs. Obviously.

They are probably talking about ballistic missiles (Tochka specifically); many people think anything ballistic and missile is ICBM...

[Shalcker]

Ohh you captured them?

Yep.

Who cares really?

If Ukrainian will get Javelins and go on offensive they'll probably find "rebels" with Kornets.

[Crispin]

Obviously you do not have a clue what an ICBM is, and really shouldn't be commenting about things like this.......

Lmfao, next up, Ukraine is using inter planetary sniper rifles!

[Mayhem]

Great news for mel gibson and danny glover!

[Shalcker]

I do care. I hope US javelins end up in Ukraine and kill many many Russian soldiers.

Ukrainian problem isn't with equipment - they are quite capable of producing their own, and have plenty of Soviet ones left too.

It is with corruption permeating their entire society, including army.

Their elites, like Russian ones, are perfectly fine with using "conflict" as pretext for their own ends - like suppression of domestic dissent "Because we're at war!!! / Russian collaborators and sympathisers are everywhere, why do you want to help them!?" ("because we're under assault from West!!! / Do you want Maidan like in Ukraine!?" in Russian version). Ukraine is also using "war" as leverage to get Western support.

So any "final solution" from either side is unlikely. Occasional clashes when Ukraine feels they are getting neglected (curiously coinciding with Poroshenko Western visits) are possible.

[Deleted]

Obviously you do not have a clue what an ICBM is, and really shouldn't be commenting about things like this.......

It was a ballistic missile, u are nitpicking about range as if it makes a difference to those hit.

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They already had those, we captured two American counter-artillery radars in Debaltsevo.

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They are probably talking about ballistic missiles (Tochka specifically); many people think anything ballistic and missile is ICBM...

I know what an icbm is, I remember it was at least a BALLISTIC missile, god! this forum loves to bitch n nitpick like crazy!

[Skroe]

It was a ballistic missile, u are nitpicking about range as if it makes a difference to those hit.

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I know what an icbm is, I remember it was at least a BALLISTIC missile, god! this forum loves to bitch n nitpick like crazy!

Pictured: world's largest fish.



A US Helicopter in Kuwait


George Washington and Thomas Jefferson



I know in Putin's Russia, facts and definitions don't matter, but in the free world, they do.

[Deleted]

Ballistic missiles are for bringing down cities not precision strike pockets of enemies in a city. It hit the city, u are arguing how much further it could have flown which has nothing to do whatsoever with the discussion.

Lol facts n defintions matter...not according to your politicians n MSM.

[Shalcker]

I give less than zero shits about your drivel. Ukraine possibly getting more effective weapons than old soviet crap so they can kill invading Russians more effectively is a huge plus.

Noone will be better off with them; Russians can step up in the same way and kill more Ukrainians just as easily.

I guess it makes sense if you don't care about Ukrainians at all and only care about Russia.

[Shalcker]

Russians are invaders that commit countless warcrimes in Ukraine.

As did Ukrainians.

Every dead Russian soldier is a price that Russia gets to pay for it's behavior. Ukraine has every right to execute them all if it comes to that.

And they have every right to fight back. Because, you know, right to live is unalienable.

And both sides happen to shell civilians.

Ukrainians losing lives is on Russia, they are protecting their home country.

So you want them to lose more lives in senseless struggle to prop up agenda of their corrupt oligarchs?

And you think giving them advanced arms is best way to do it?

And your shit about me not caring about Ukrainians; I do care. But I also understand that the only language Russia understands is deadly force.

There is marked difference between capabilities of Ukrainians and capabilities of Russians that will not be offset even by billions of arms.

Provoking them to attack will just make their losses even more grave.

[Deleted]

Noone will be better off with them; Russians can step up in the same way and kill more Ukrainians just as easily.

I guess it makes sense if you don't care about Ukrainians at all and only care about Russia.

He wants to "help" ukraine by killing russians down to every last ukrainian...

[Deletedaccount1]

The people of Ukraine deserve to purchase Lethal Weapon. A great film.

[Shalcker]

If Russian soldiers don't want to die they have the right to GTFO from Ukraine.

There is simple way for Ukrainians to stop dying - stop shelling.

And then do their part of all those "Minsk Accords" that everyone still says "are the only way forward".

Best way to help Ukraine would be carpeting the Ukraine Russia border with landmines and Europe going cold turkey on Russian energy exports, but in absence of those, giving Ukraine better weapons is a good start.

Start of what exactly?

[Shalcker]

The Minsk Accords are useless as long as Russian soldiers are present in Ukraine.

Russians are going to be there until Ukraine starts implementing them.

There are plenty of parts there they can do while Russians are present, undermining Russian propaganda that they just want to violently suppress population of rebel territories with no repercussions.

Maybe if enough Russian soldiers die, Russia will pull them out discreetly and leave the rebels to fend for themselves.

Way too much wishful thinking.

In fact we already pulled our advisors from joint center (due to Ukrainian non-cooperation)... and now Germany wants them back.

The rebels alone will be easy pickings for the Ukrainian forces to slaughter wholesale.

Supporter of human slaughter right here...

If Russians are pulled all that will remain with rebels are Ukrainians... so you want Ukrainians to slaughter Ukrainians? And consider this to be desirable outcome of giving them advanced weapons?

To that end, giving Ukraine weapons to kill Russian soldiers and destroy Russian hardware at accelerated pace is a good start.

Good start toward Ukrainians slaughtering Ukrainians with no Russian meddling?

[Ripster42]

In fact we already pulled our advisors from joint center (due to Ukrainian non-cooperation)... and now Germany wants them back.

Your link says nothing about germany wanting russians back in ukraine. I'm pretty sure they'd prefer all russians out of ukraine. It's nice that you're no longer denying that there are russians in eastern ukraine like you did for years though.

[CostinR]

The Minsk Accords are useless as long as Russian soldiers are present in Ukraine. Maybe if enough Russian soldiers die, Russia will pull them out discreetly and leave the rebels to fend for themselves. The rebels alone will be easy pickings for the Ukrainian forces to slaughter wholesale. To that end, giving Ukraine weapons to kill Russian soldiers and destroy Russian hardware at accelerated pace is a good start.

Part of the Minsk agreement is to "To withdraw illegal armed groups and military equipment as well as fighters and mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine."

Basically for Russia to withdraw it's troops from Ukraine. Why doesn't it do it? Because they want Ukraine to hold their end of the bargain on: "To ensure early local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts"."

So yeah Russia wants Ukraine to hold elections in the East before they withdraw while Ukraine wants Russia to withdraw before any election. Neither side trusts the other to hold up their end of the bargain so you get the current artillery war.

Though with regards to your laughable logic of "if enough Russian soldiers die". No. Russia has vastly superior sniper, tank, artillery forces and they are the ones inflicting far more casualties then they are taking.

[Shalcker]

Your link says nothing about germany wanting russians back in ukraine.

That is actually part of their statement mentioned there; it is in first link of the article.

Here is VoA:
Merkel and Macron issued a joint statement Saturday urging combatants to observe the Minsk agreements aimed at defusing the conflict. Those provisions include the withdrawal of heavy weapons such as tanks and rocket launchers from the front-line area and an exchange of prisoners.

The two leaders also urged the return of Russian military officers to a joint coordination center that plays a role in monitoring the cease-fire. Russian President Vladimir Putin and Merkel discussed the issue Thursday. Putin said the Russian move had been prompted by “restrictions and provocations” by Ukrainian authorities that made it hard for Russian officers to perform their duties.

I'm pretty sure they'd prefer all russians out of ukraine. It's nice that you're no longer denying that there are russians in eastern ukraine like you did for years though.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Ripster42]

That is actually part of their statement mentioned there.

Here is VoA:
Merkel and Macron issued a joint statement Saturday urging combatants to observe the Minsk agreements aimed at defusing the conflict. Those provisions include the withdrawal of heavy weapons such as tanks and rocket launchers from the front-line area and an exchange of prisoners.

The two leaders also urged the return of Russian military officers to a joint coordination center that plays a role in monitoring the cease-fire. Russian President Vladimir Putin and Merkel discussed the issue Thursday. Putin said the Russian move had been prompted by “restrictions and provocations” by Ukrainian authorities that made it hard for Russian officers to perform their duties.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.

Clearly the minsk agreement calls for russians to leave ukraine.

To withdraw illegal armed groups and military equipment as well as fighters and mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine.

So if they're calling for all parties to observe the minsk agreement, they're calling for the russians to leave ukraine.

And that statement isn't in the original story you linked, so maybe you should read your links next time.